Max camera distance suggestion

In alpha one we have an option to zoom camera in game. This is bad cuz of two reasons. Firstly u lose a connection with ur character, u feel disconnected, but if u have it optional everyone will play on bigger zoom cuz it gives u advantage and that leads us to another issue. Max zoom allows you to check very deep corners without getting to danger, which is a big advantage for a player. I suggest to lock camera near max zoom-in to make more immersion and stop actions like that

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Liniker

Steven already said: MAX ZOOM!!!! ain't got time for no casuals trying to dictate how I should play my MMORPGs....

If you want to play it zoomed in just do it, leave the rest of us that care for competitive pvp and pve play how we want: with max zoom.

Sussurro

You used to be able to get the camera really far out in WoW and play it sort've like a rts with click-to-move. They recently adjusted the fov down from where it had temporarily been adjusted up before according to some rather upset forum posts. If you are indeed playing competitively or at a very high skill level, then max zoom is too powerful to ignore. Evaluate what you want from the game and determine what compromises, if any, you will need to make for gameplay.

Happymeal2415

Liniker wrote: »

Steven already said: MAX ZOOM!!!! ain't got time for no casuals trying to dictate how I should play my MMORPGs....

If you want to play it zoomed in just do it, leave the rest of us that care for competitive pvp and pve play how we want: with max zoom.

What does caring about pvp or being casual have to do with camera zoom? Having the zoom out restricted adds to pvp.

Ludullu

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Having the zoom out restricted adds to pvp.

The only thing it adds is the amount of additional mouse movement that I'll need to do in order to see the things I wanna see. Doesn't sound like a good addition to me.

Liniker

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

What does caring about pvp or being casual have to do with camera zoom? Having the zoom out restricted adds to pvp.

Happymeal2415

NiKr wrote: »

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Having the zoom out restricted adds to pvp.

The only thing it adds is the amount of additional mouse movement that I'll need to do in order to see the things I wanna see. Doesn't sound like a good addition to me.

Right so youve just said the answer and not made it there yourself. It makes many things viable specifically because you can't zoom out as if you have a drone following you. It adds to the gameplay.

Happymeal2415

Liniker wrote: »

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

What does caring about pvp or being casual have to do with camera zoom? Having the zoom out restricted adds to pvp.

x2

Ludullu

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Right so youve just said the answer and not made it there yourself. It makes many things viable specifically because you can't zoom out as if you have a drone following you. It adds to the gameplay.

Could you give any example of those "viable things"? Cause again, I see no benefit in me having limited vision.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

Right so youve just said the answer and not made it there yourself. It makes many things viable specifically because you can't zoom out as if you have a drone following you. It adds to the gameplay.

Could you give any example of those "viable things"? Cause again, I see no benefit in me having limited vision.

In a game with even limited action controls, you have to choose between accuracy and time on target versus awareness. To me having a wide camera zoom doesn't fit a risk vs reward model in games with even soft tab. You are getting awareness, accuracy and time on target for 'free'.

You say it makes you swivel your camera more? That's the point. But you don't see why it costs something at first glance because you come from a heavy tab target game where this mattered less and was not a cost just an annoyance.

I agree with you that a full tab game should have a wide camera. Ashes on the other hand will have a lot of reasons why accuracy cannot be assumed with tab due to it's action and template laying options. I would therefore argue that among many other reasons this is a core argument for why a narrower camera view is better design for a game like Ashes.

You can definitely make arguments for why this trade off hinders certain play styles, but it's probably better you make those arguments rather than trying to convince people with an action combat background that a wide camera is strictly about comfortable play.

Ludullu

JustVine wrote: »

You can definitely make arguments for why this trade off hinders certain play styles, but it's probably better you make those arguments rather than trying to convince people with an action combat background that a wide camera is strictly about comfortable play.

I'd say that it limits design variety. If you camera is narrow even in tab mode, the devs can't create pve encounters that would require you to constantly monitor your surroundings while also engaging in a fight.

A super quick look through a GW2 guide video shows that they have a fairly distant camera coupled with a somewhat close action one, so this has been done before and, from what I know, worked just fine, because people tend to say that GW2 has the best hybrid combat.

So I really don't see why Intrepid couldn't either allow for both or have a smooth transition from a far zoom to a closer one when you switch between modes. And it's gonna be on the player to adjust to such a system.

Leiloni

Dygz wrote: »

It's a little bit wonky in Alpha One.
There are times when I end up zoomed out way more than I want... but it's so trivial I don't even remember what causes that.
It's easy enough to zoom in and it stays like that most of the time.
A minor tweak to camera zoom would be nice. But, it's far from a deal breaker.

Proper in game settings can easily control zoom and other things. Here's what SWTOR has and you can lock how far you're able to zoom if you want.

Leiloni

Happymeal2415 wrote: »

I think the zoom should lean towards the closer side. In a game like this where people will be ambushing caravans etc. you should have to be aware of your surroundings by having players on watch or scouting etc. Having a view of your character from essentially the top of a small mountain really negates any of this.

You won't really be ambushing caravans when you need to get close to it first to get within it's specified area, then opt-in to participate in the caravan to begin with, and then choose to play the attacker role. By that point they know you're there.

Caravans aren't free PvP zones you can just gank as they run by - they're moving opt-in open world battlegrounds. You have to join in first.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

You can definitely make arguments for why this trade off hinders certain play styles, but it's probably better you make those arguments rather than trying to convince people with an action combat background that a wide camera is strictly about comfortable play.

I'd say that it limits design variety. If you camera is narrow even in tab mode, the devs can't create pve encounters that would require you to constantly monitor your surroundings while also engaging in a fight.

A super quick look through a GW2 guide video shows that they have a fairly distant camera coupled with a somewhat close action one, so this has been done before and, from what I know, worked just fine, because people tend to say that GW2 has the best hybrid combat.

So I really don't see why Intrepid couldn't either allow for both or have a smooth transition from a far zoom to a closer one when you switch between modes. And it's gonna be on the player to adjust to such a system.

How does it limit design variety in PvE? I don't see how this is at all relevant to PvE. If you are in PvE that requires that level of vigilance you require a party. If you have a party, communication resolves this. What it does do is make PvX a more tactical thing that requires vigilance. The constantly monitoring your surrounding at the cost of a little time on target or accuracy is a feature not a bug.

Here is a link for GW2 camera distance variation for those who don't want to look it up themselves and are unfamiliar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EWJZkwYBro&t=67s

The difference between where this camera starts at t=67 and where it ends is the difference I am talking about. The place where it starts I feel would work fairly well in Ashes. The distance where it ends is where I imagine most people who play tab target are 'comfortable'.

GW2 is a fairly PvP oriented game although it's recently gotten some good PvE additions. So you are correct in using it as an example of it being fine for PvP. GW2 lacks the level of PvX and the transition between PvE and PvX that Ashes will have. Ashes is a lot MORE about controlling a specific area and being able to be tactically routed or ambushed.

This fluid transition between PvE and PvP is why I don't think it's reasonable to go 'just make it optional or make action combats camera smaller.' That will just lead people to people flickering between targeting modes which I'd argue is way more of a user experience discomfort than swiveling your camera occasionally. I think consistency in camera angle is vital to keeping the two modes balanced.

Leiloni

Liniker wrote: »

Steven already said: MAX ZOOM!!!! ain't got time for no casuals trying to dictate how I should play my MMORPGs....

If you want to play it zoomed in just do it, leave the rest of us that care for competitive pvp and pve play how we want: with max zoom.

It's not even just about being competitive, though. It's about what's comfortable. Zoom being in too close is just frankly irritating and unfun. It drives me nuts to look at a screen when everything is so close.

Also as a healer I'm used to being able to see more of the battlefield/more of the fight, what all my teammates are doing, etc. I'm sure tanks feel the same need and when you're zoomed in too close you feel like you can't do your job properly as a healer/tank.

Ludullu

JustVine wrote: »

This fluid transition between PvE and PvP is why I don't think it's reasonable to go 'just make it optional or make action combats camera smaller.' That will just lead people to people flickering between targeting modes which I'd argue is way more of a user experience discomfort than swiveling your camera occasionally. I think consistency in camera angle is vital to keeping the two modes balanced.

Imo options are always better. You want close camera - you got it. You want far camera - you got it. You want to switch between the 2 and is fine with the resulting whiplash - you got it.

And we have no real idea how exactly AoC's combat will be designed, cause we've barely seen any finalized combat and we sure as hell know nothing about the classes design. And even if Intrepid do go down a very particular design path, making the camera zoom optional now would just give them a wider spectrum of "where do we want all players to have their camera" later on, if they need it.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

This fluid transition between PvE and PvP is why I don't think it's reasonable to go 'just make it optional or make action combats camera smaller.' That will just lead people to people flickering between targeting modes which I'd argue is way more of a user experience discomfort than swiveling your camera occasionally. I think consistency in camera angle is vital to keeping the two modes balanced.

Imo options are always better. You want close camera - you got it. You want far camera - you got it. You want to switch between the 2 and is fine with the resulting whiplash - you got it.

And we have no real idea how exactly AoC's combat will be designed, cause we've barely seen any finalized combat and we sure as hell know nothing about the classes design. And even if Intrepid do go down a very particular design path, making the camera zoom optional now would just give them a wider spectrum of "where do we want all players to have their camera" later on, if they need it.

But it's not about options. Options will be always present. It's about 'what's the maximum allowed advantage in our combat design'.

And ok if that's your stance 'we don't know enough about this to make judgements' that is both factual and correct, but it's also where the conversation basically ends so good chatting with you I guess.
'Here are these principles relative to the big picture combat and this is why I think one mode would be theoretically better.'
'We don't know what all the parameters are for your theory to be validated as correct or not so let's not discuss it from that perspective.'
'Ok Nikr you right. Have a good day.'

Ludullu

JustVine wrote: »

Have a good day.

Leiloni

JustVine wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

This fluid transition between PvE and PvP is why I don't think it's reasonable to go 'just make it optional or make action combats camera smaller.' That will just lead people to people flickering between targeting modes which I'd argue is way more of a user experience discomfort than swiveling your camera occasionally. I think consistency in camera angle is vital to keeping the two modes balanced.

Imo options are always better. You want close camera - you got it. You want far camera - you got it. You want to switch between the 2 and is fine with the resulting whiplash - you got it.

And we have no real idea how exactly AoC's combat will be designed, cause we've barely seen any finalized combat and we sure as hell know nothing about the classes design. And even if Intrepid do go down a very particular design path, making the camera zoom optional now would just give them a wider spectrum of "where do we want all players to have their camera" later on, if they need it.

But it's not about options. Options will be always present. It's about 'what's the maximum allowed advantage in our combat design'.

And ok if that's your stance 'we don't know enough about this to make judgements' that is both factual and correct, but it's also where the conversation basically ends so good chatting with you I guess.
'Here are these principles relative to the big picture combat and this is why I think one mode would be theoretically better.'
'We don't know what all the parameters are for your theory to be validated as correct or not so let's not discuss it from that perspective.'
'Ok Nikr you right. Have a good day.'

I disagree I think type of combat is entirely irrelevant. TERA and Black Desert have arguably the two best action combat systems of any MMO out there (both at launch also were popular for their PvP ) - TERA for more traditional trinity gameplay, and Black Desert for that more combo/fighting style. Both allow very maxed out cameras with reticules placed high above the character's head, centrally located on screen (and IIRC both games allowed you to adjust it's location, or at least TERA did). It worked really well in both of those games. Just because a game has action combat elements, that doesn't mean it needs a terrible zoomed in (and often also low to the ground) camera. That just limits what you can see and makes aiming unnecessarily harder. It doesn't add anything positive to the experience.

Now if you want to try to make the argument that ESO, New World, Crowfall, etc. have better PvP and/or overall better action combat and gameplay experiences because the camera view is different, I'd love to see anyone attempt that argument. Because I can't think of any MMO's with good combat that has a more zoomed in camera view.

Anonymous332

Honestly this topic is more important than people give it credit for. Devs have to make a decision here. Do devs want to put competitive players into more metas? then longer max zoom out is the way to go for more awareness.

I would dare to say that majority of players thinks it feels better and more "immersive" being zoomed in closer to the character. The argument why having limited zoom out would be OK is that everyone will on equal footing as not anyone can zoom out way more than others and it would make the game more of a welcome challenge imo despite shotcalling etc will be harder, some see it as annoyance, some higher skillceiling.

Balfazar

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