DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Dygz

Haven't seen you in a while.
I been worried. Nice to see you're back.

Dizz1

Intrepid devs, If you really want to avoid providing any kind of tool for toxic player and thinking that providing tool like dps meter is the source of this kind of problems, I suggest you better hide every number or stats of player and monsters and don’t let player able to inspect another player’s build because any number or stats from character or gear and skill point distribution will lead toxic player to roughly know another player’s dps performance, and only make crit and non-ctrit effects different and that is enough.

If you make boss or any mechanic that needs damage check or healing check you’re providing toxic tool so please don’t do it.

So simple task don’t show any kind of numbers even graph about anything that help toxic player do any kind of calculation, and don’t make any kind of mechanic will check any kind of output from players that make time length matters.

Chucksticks

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I'd prefer they stayed out of the game unless we absolutely needed them.

I feel that dps meters take away the immersiveness of the actual fights.

To compromise, maybe add an option training dojo's to be built in towns where players can test their various builds against training dummies and/or certain npc's (various selectable behavior trees) that induce parry's, counters, blocking, and combos. These training dojo's would provide various stats like number of critical hits, low/avg/median/high non-crit single hit, etc. for timed and untimed runs. Also, allow for single player or party runs of all sizes where members can teach other by example.

TheClimbTo1

Noaani wrote: »

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Um. Top 1% is relative.

We won't participate for the fun of the encounter, or to experience something new, or for any potential rewards.

Saddest thing I've ever read.

Depends on your perspective.

We won't participate for the fun of the encounter, because the encounter won't be fun. It may be to you, and that's great! That is why we would leave it to you.

We won't participate to experience something new, because the encounter won't have anything new to us. It may be new to you, and that's great! That is why we would leave it to you.

We won't participate for the rewards, because the rewards will be of no use to us. They may be of use to you though, and that's great! That is why we would leave it to you.

Or, would you rather people that take on this kind of content in their sleep (almost literally) coming along, trivializing it for everyone, removing any sense of discovery or wonder with something new, and then running off with what ever drops there are so we can just put them up for sale?

To me, that would be the saddest thing ever - but as I said, depends on your perspective. To us, it is better for everyone if we leave event content like this to others. People like you will get more out of it than people like me ever would, and that's great (we should all have content that we get a lot out of, don't you agree?).

Oh, and you missed a [ in your quote chain, I fixed it above for you.

I would rather people play the game and experience the fun.

You make it sound like this 1% thing isn't fun at all. You have no need for 99% of the game, because the rewards aren't good enough, it's not 'fun' for you.

It's this ONE aspect of the game, and that's it for you. It's Raids, or it's nothing.

And how would you be taking away any sense of discovery or wonder with something new? It'd be new to you, because it's content you never do. We'd all be discovering this wonder together.

That's the sad thing. That you see this as 'us' and 'them' for some reason. There's an ENTIRE game to play here. A whole map to explore, all kind of content to experience. But somehow you think joining in on a World Boss is something you shouldn't do, because you aren't 'us'.

Like, just play the game, have fun, be part of the community. That's the idea.

We're going to have Node Invasions, huge PvP Fights for territory, that have PvE things happening inside of them.. Where do you fall on that? Are you going to design some idea to where this helps your Raid, or design some idea as to how this doesn't help your Raid, and thus either participate or not due to that?

I mean, to me, that's greater than the Raids. Being able to take or defends these Nodes IS the End Game Content, the 'Greatest Challenge'. There's just so much more to the Game, and it's sad to see that you'd just discard parts of the game because of this mentality you have.

But I've noticed something that never changes with you. You're always the altruistic good guy in your mind. Even the World Boss, it's not that it's boring to you, or beneath you... no, you spare US by not joining. There's a term for this, where no matter the situation you always see yourself in the best light.

Anyways, I stand by my point. There is a lot of different content out there. And you've put yourself in this position that most of it, is meaningless and beneath you... it just doesn't help you reach the goal of Improved Raiding. Which is like, the vast majority of the game really. That's pretty sad to me.

Songcaller

Dizz wrote: »

Intrepid devs, If you really want to avoid providing any kind of tool for toxic player and thinking that providing tool like dps meter is the source of this kind of problems, I suggest you better hide every number or stats of player and monsters and don’t let player able to inspect another player’s build because any number or stats from character or gear and skill point distribution will lead toxic player to roughly know another player’s dps performance, and only make crit and non-ctrit effects different and that is enough.

If you make boss or any mechanic that needs damage check or healing check you’re providing toxic tool so please don’t do it.

So simple task don’t show any kind of numbers even graph about anything that help toxic player do any kind of calculation, and don’t make any kind of mechanic will check any kind of output from players that make time length matters.

Hello Dizz,

I'm not sure if you were around for the dev discussions on these topics you mention. We as a community vetoed the stats and icons for mobs - we chose old school or ancient school, surprises if you will. We also decided to keep icons and stats for players, which, is anti-propositional to the pve position. Thus, its not clear what the final product will look like. It appears at face value that PvE will have limited to no icons/stats etc. Health will be shielded/percentage based rather than factual or digitised and players will have icons and stats associated with each player toon.

Combat Trackers are a fascinating topic because a combat tracker is anti-old school or anti-ancient school and would actually bypass the community desire for no icons/stats for PvE. Also, Combat Trackers will be useless in PvP situations where Icons/Stats are currently chosen to be. Therefore, I think we should lose the 1% tag when discussing these issues, because, the true 1% have tried to limit the amount of information and the alleged 1% are still trying to increase the information available. The same 1% are adamant that cosmetics shouldn't hide gear for example.

I've softened on the side of combat trackers because I designed raids/encounters which would decimate a lot of the 1%ers. One can't offer the carrot and the stick when the carrot is hidden and the stick is a branch.

Dizz1

Neurath wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Intrepid devs, If you really want to avoid providing any kind of tool for toxic player and thinking that providing tool like dps meter is the source of this kind of problems, I suggest you better hide every number or stats of player and monsters and don’t let player able to inspect another player’s build because any number or stats from character or gear and skill point distribution will lead toxic player to roughly know another player’s dps performance, and only make crit and non-ctrit effects different and that is enough.

If you make boss or any mechanic that needs damage check or healing check you’re providing toxic tool so please don’t do it.

So simple task don’t show any kind of numbers even graph about anything that help toxic player do any kind of calculation, and don’t make any kind of mechanic will check any kind of output from players that make time length matters.

Hello Dizz,

I'm not sure if you were around for the dev discussions on these topics you mention. We as a community vetoed the stats and icons for mobs - we chose old school or ancient school, surprises if you will. We also decided to keep icons and stats for players, which, is anti-propositional to the pve position. Thus, its not clear what the final product will look like. It appears at face value that PvE will have limited to no icons/stats etc. Health will be shielded/percentage based rather than factual or digitised and players will have icons and stats associated with each player toon.

Combat Trackers are a fascinating topic because a combat tracker is anti-old school or anti-ancient school and would actually bypass the community desire for no icons/stats for PvE. Also, Combat Trackers will be useless in PvP situations where Icons/Stats are currently chosen to be. Therefore, I think we should lose the 1% tag when discussing these issues, because, the true 1% have tried to limit the amount of information and the alleged 1% are still trying to increase the information available. The same 1% are adamant that cosmetics shouldn't hide gear for example.

I've softened on the side of combat trackers because I designed raids/encounters which would decimate a lot of the 1%ers. One can't offer the carrot and the stick when the carrot is hidden and the stick is a branch.

Well, I'm sorry, I not so frequently come here and follow what's going on, and topics I have interest are too long to read, and thank you to give me a update, thank you.

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

I don't know the most reason to go with old school/ancient school like is it because the point of view at the beginning at this dps meter topic that "dps meter is a tool for toxic behavior so important", but if as a community choose to go old school/ancient school please don't make anything will make go with old school/ancient school decision become meaningless, if choose don't show mobs hp and stats etc in any way please don't do anything have any chance to break it, make no player can figure any information about any thing and don't release any information about mobs boss world boss mechanic etc out of Intrepid.

Because what I know is that if you give any clue to players some of them will find the way to know how and what devs set for the game, Lineage 1and 2 and RO that guide magazine ruined the game in my region, Monster Hunter just show the weapon attack power number and monster weak spot then player found out how Capcom design all the damage formula, so If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1 and Intrepid willing to do so I will say please DO NOT do anything above to make players life easier.

To me the only thing can do is like crit effect.

I hope Intrepid will design the number behind everything in a good way, because this is the hardest way to make a game good and only few did it okay, most games failed on design numbers like the in most game gear progression and builds etc are just an illusion make player think they have choices and they choose the best.

I thought the game won't be far, now I think it need more time to be good.

Noaani

TheClimbTo1 wrote: »

Anyways, I stand by my point.

Are you sure about that?

I mean, you've taken one comment t about one type of content, and expanded it ad lib to other types of content.

Top end raiders wont take part in event raids (in general) if they have anything else going on. That is my statement.

From that, you have somehow derived that top end raiders have no need for 99% of the content in the game.

You're literally making up what you think my point here is, disagreeing with it, and then standing by your disagreement with my point.

I'm not talking about anything other than world events, and the parts of it where you are talking about anything else (which is most of your above post, unless you believe world events will make up 99% of the content), you are simply arguing with yourself (and losing, if we are being honest).

Now, to address the one part of your post where you are talking about world events...

But I've noticed something that never changes with you. You're always the altruistic good guy in your mind. Even the World Boss, it's not that it's boring to you, or beneath you... no, you spare US by not joining. There's a term for this, where no matter the situation you always see yourself in the best light.

I never said I was leaving the boss mobs alone for your benefit.

This isnt some altruistic stance or anything like that, and I wouldn't want anything thinking it was. If I had reason to kill them, something for me or my guild to gain from killing them that we wouldn't gain from you killing them, then we would be all in.

That isn't going to happen though. The rewards for killing event bosses will be sub par compared to world bosses.

This is because events should designed so that the average player can take part. They wont be designed to be a challenge to organized, experienced raiders. If they were designed like that, those average players would have no hope of killing them, and the fate of the server would be in the hands of raiders.

That is straight up not how it should be. It should be designed so the average player, with average gear, average organization and average strategy is able to take on the event.

You say you stand by your position. I am unsure what your position even is here. You think that it is somehow a bad thing that people that raid top end content would have bo I treat in content designed for the masses. I'm just assuming you haven't thought this through.

Let's just assume that organized, skilled, coordinated and geared players have a desire to kill these events ourselves. One of two things happens.

The first is that the content is still designed for the average player, and we come along and trivialize it for everyone, and take what ever rewards are there. This ruins these events for the masses.

Or, the content is hard and so we are joining in for the challenge. If this were the case, these events wouldn't be able to be killed without us - meaning we could then take protection money from any mode that wants to not be destroyed by these events. Suddenly, you all are paying us protection money.

I want neither of those things. I want these events to be enjoyable, worthwhile content for the bulk of players. This means - by absolute necessity - that it isnt of value to top end raiders.

Which part of the above do you disagree with?

Noaani

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Mag7spy

Combat log, no numbers, no precents, hit or miss, Crits, special effect procs, skills uses so people can have that information. Done no trackers in the game and people are going to have to work hard to figure things out on what is effective and not and will be pretty social wanting to find combat experts and people holding onto secrets.

Best way to counter people that will refuse to listen to TOS and also attempt to spread trackers in hopes to get add on support in the future.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Combat log, no numbers, no precents, hit or miss, Crits, special effect procs, skills uses so people can have that information. Done no trackers in the game and people are going to have to work hard to figure things out on what is effective and not and will be pretty social wanting to find combat experts and people holding onto secrets.

Best way to counter people that will refuse to listen to TOS and also attempt to spread trackers in hopes to get add on support in the future.

You mean 'worst way'.

The deeper you push, the deeper they dive.

BDO has parsers, and that game didn't even show MISSES in game until recently.

All you'd end up doing is making it 'the thing available to a few people with the skill to do it' instead (or slowing your server to a crawl in a specific way which seems like a bad plan).

Your spirit is admirable for your cause, your method would not achieve it.

Mag7spy

Not about spirt just doing it in the strongest way possible so they don't have anything to track in a substantial way and there for making them useless.

Having the skill to track when almost no information is relevantly available doesn't mean much. Everyone makes something of everything and having .001% of people using it in a pointless way won't change anything. I can't imagine anything on BDO being tracked being useful, you simply will know what is effective with how advance a combo you can do and the rng elements.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

Not about spirt just doing it in the strongest way possible so they don't have anything to track in a substantial way and there for making them useless.

Having the skill to track when almost no information is relevantly available doesn't mean much. Everyone makes something of everything and having .001% of people using it in a pointless way won't change anything. I can't imagine anything on BDO being tracked being useful, you simply will know what is effective with how advance a combo you can do and the rng elements.

Here, you can use this to make your point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/jn5w7p/test_of_how_elixirs_work_that_apply_defense/

Enjoy.

Dizz1

Noaani wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.

At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.

My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.

Azherae

Dizz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.

At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.

My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.

Your understanding is correct.

Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.

Songcaller

The problem we have is the fact that the game master used to play MMOs (or still does) but the game master in question used to use a lot of zerg tactics. Combat trackers were used to counter zerg tactics. Combat trackers can still be used to counter zerg tactics. Thus, toxicity is a very subjective term because what is toxic to one person is not toxic to another person. Ashes of Creation remains Steven's creation despite the tag being under Jeffrey Bard when googled, thus, it is a no brainer that the toxicity meter slants towards no combat trackers, even though, there are other game designs to prevent zerg tactics being used.

We all know that zergs will be formed either way. All the antizerg methods will do is prevent appropriate response to a formed zerg because it will take everyone else twice or thrice as long to field a counter zerg. Sometimes I get into debates about paper based systems such as the taverns, but, when experience is placed against the paper based systems, the paper based systems do not stand a chance.

Dizz1

Azherae wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.

At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.

My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.

Your understanding is correct.

Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.

Thanks for your reply. : )

To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.

By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but high potential to invest time to play kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.

Mag7spy

Dizz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.

At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.

My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.

Your understanding is correct.

Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.

Thanks for your reply. : )

To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.

By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but hard to master kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.

The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.

Dizz1

Mag7spy wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dizz wrote: »

If community voted to go with old school/ancient school like Lineage 1(won't show mob HP and stats and don't know how much damage dealt to mob) I will say don't do any tools that modern mmorpg have even combat tracker, and please don't show how much mob deal to player too means player won't even know how much HP character have, yes please DO NOT show any number or % to player only the player character HP can be graphical without any number or %.

The problem is, we also know we will have a combat log.

If we have a combat log, all of that information is available to anyone that wants to look. At this point, literally all a combat tracker does is speed this process up some. It also makes it impossible for Intrepid Intrepid stop people using third party trackers.

On the other hand, if Intrepid implemented them in to the game client, they are the ones that decide what features players get. They could - for example - make it so you dont get any information until combat has finished.

Additionally, the reason players voted to not show too much information doesnt actually have anything to do with trackers, and likely wo t be affected by them at all either.

The reason was so that you cant easily bring a player to near death and leave then to be killed by a mob, preventing a corruption penalty. If you dont know how much HP a player has left, you cant easily do this.

Adding combat trackers isnt going to suddenly make this possible.

Uh… I’m not sure if I use the right words, this is so contradictory.

At the beginning this mega thread was discuss about dps meter kind of tool bring toxic behaviors and I think Steven don’t want dps meter and think it have negative effect to player’s behavior(at least when I check this thread last time and please forgive me being a casual follower.), at that time I don’t know they will do the combat log but now I know that, it makes me feel the decisions are so contradictory, I mean don’t you guys think there will be some players look their own combat log and do calculates try to figure out what build able to do how much dps under what situations and then those toxic players still able to do what they’d like to do? So what’s the point of those decisions about no dps meter no addons trackers or not trackers? Those toxic behaviors like you mentioned that using mob to kill dying player don’t even rely on any tracker, if monster behavior more like old school mmo like Lineage 1 you will see players pulling monster train to kill other players or invading towns everyday so to prevent this kind of things no we are going to make monster can’t be pulled away from their roaming zone? I mean isn’t that how mmos become so bad today because game developers so over thinking that players can’t handle these situations thinking that if want to attract more players the game needs to be friendly like the game holding players like holding own baby? I think no matter what reasons you guys stand for to vote going old school/ancient school you won’t get what you want.

My English is bad I don’t know if my understanding is correct or not, if the thing is Intrepid still have this contradictory thinking and community is still dance with it, I thinks this is bad. I said this before toxic players don’t care about there are tools or not they will get what they want no matter what in my opinion and experiences but obviously Steven and lots of players don’t think so.

Your understanding is correct.

Some people in this thread also believe that this is contradictory thinking, and others believe that parsers, trackers, and meters, lead to toxic behaviour.

Thanks for your reply. : )

To me no matter which way Intrepid choose to go with either way can make a good game I mean every way has it own pros and cons, but the reason and the mentality behind the decision is very important, I really hope Intrepid can figure it out and make a good game.

By the way I prefer low learning price and entry but hard to master kind of game design overall, because I believe most players don't like that they need to do research etc while playing a game or in order to being good at a game right at the beginning.

The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.

Yeah, I aware that and I still think the same, according what I read in few pages of recently discussion, almost every toxic behavior mentioned in this thread I already saw from Lineage 1 to now which means almost every mmo I played can see same toxic things no matter there are tools or not limited or not, to me it should be focused on what can we do to heavily punish that kind of behavior as it should be punished and as efficient as possible(for example if one player was found continue doing toxic behavior and not willing to stop I will say just delete the account and I'd love to pay another 5 USD month fee to support Intrepid if they do it, or make it optional like a VIP upgrade that when I report a player being toxic to me Intrepid will investigate my case as fast as they can and if it's true they will stop/delete that player's account but charge me another 5 USD month fee I'll definitely upgrade my account.) in stead of do things to prevent it happen efficiently(this prevent things to happen way may able to stop some toxic at some degree, but potentially damaging the game at the same time in my opinion.), the thing is those people so deeply trapped in the toxic issues seems don't aware some ideas they propose potentially driving a lot of player base away and that's the problem.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.

First, I thought we had pointed out to you that attempting to use the argument of the number of people posting in this thread is futile.

Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.

Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.

The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

The point is the small amount of people here and the toxic issue is about allowing people to track other people and what they do and gate keep. So they can watch you and start being toxic towards you if they don't agree with your play style or feel you are effective enough based on what they can see number wise even if that doesn't paint a full picture.

First, I thought we had pointed out to you that attempting to use the argument of the number of people posting in this thread is futile.

Second, everyone arguing the point has so far completely neglected to connect combat to toxicity. They have kind of just said that there is a causal effect, but had no reasoning at all to back that up.

Third, gatekeeping isnt negatively affected by combat trackers, it is affected by player competency. If you are a shit player and your guild can not see that, you are preventing your whole guild from accessing content. If they see you are shit and then boot you from the group or raid and carry on without you, then the combat tracker actually opens up more content to more people - just not those that were holding others back.

The simple fact is, if players joining groups or raids take the obligation they have towards the others in their group or raid seriously, there is simply no scope at all for toxicity or gatekeeping to even theoretically occur. It is literally only possible if someone isnt taking their obligation towards others seriously.

Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.

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