Open world Raid/Boss Possible problems

Hi everyone, I state that I am new to the game and I have recently been interested in it so I do not know if this has been discussed previously or if information has already been provided to circumvent any problems that could arise in the scenarios I am imagining , in case if someone could provide me the link of the post I would be grateful.

But no more chatter and let's get into the heart of my question!

As the title suggests, everything specifically concerns the bosses and dungeons Open World, being that those instantiated I do not think they can be influenced by the PVP.
Exactly, my concern is PVP during these events, or rather the griefing and monopolization that larger guilds can have on this content. (And don't tell me this won't happen, because it can and surely will)

Personally I am of the idea that PVP and PVE do not have to intertwine, if I want to do PVP I go to PVP and if I want to do PVE I go to PVE, generally if one wants to do one of the two things usually does not want to waste time doing it too the other one.
Obviously the game was thought of as the old Linege and the like, and being that it seems interesting to me I am also willing to accept the mixing of these features.
However being that the PVE endgame content should be the one that drops the best gear (from what I have understood at least) I see countless possibilities for griefing and trolling, I think that creating a type of activity that is blocked by other players, and therefore automatically excludes part of the server population, not because that population does not have the requirements, but only because there are stronger or more numerous players to block them out seems to me a fallacious system towards the community and the gameplay in general.

So my question is the following, how do the developers think to prevent the bad behaviors that will surely be created?
(We don't even have to wonder, 100% people will do this).

I wanted to thank those who decided to take the time to read the whole post and I hope to receive some interesting answers, perhaps even from a developer or CM himself who can clarify or give ideas to avoid problems.

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Comments

Mag7spy

Only issue I see is really the zergs, like that will make it difficult to create challenging content as people will just Zerg it down to beat it. I understand they will have some anti zerg stuff for pve. So how effective that will be is definitely a question, but also people could grief you by bringing a ton of people not to beat the boss but to make the raid more challenging and wipe the people doing it.

I can understand why some people want instanced bosses as it is the easier way if you cant find a solution. Though i don't think that should be the norm.

George_Black

This wont be like eso or ff14 where people can teleport everywhere dont worry about dying concequences or marked as trolls. Zerg surfs wont be a thing, just like it wasnt in L2.
Open world pvp is so different from all the games where you could only interact with other players in raids and BGs.

Warth

Mag7spy wrote: »

Only issue I see is really the zergs, like that will make it difficult to create challenging content as people will just Zerg it down to beat it. I understand they will have some anti zerg stuff for pve. So how effective that will be is definitely a question, but also people could grief you by bringing a ton of people not to beat the boss but to make the raid more challenging and wipe the people doing it.

I can understand why some people want instanced bosses as it is the easier way if you cant find a solution. Though i don't think that should be the norm.

Irregular respawn timers are needed on top of reduced fast travel capabilities.
If people know the exact time of a respawn, then zergs will indeed form beforehand.
If the boss has a long window of possibly respawns, then forming raids for it will be reactionary and zergs will naturally be less pronounced.

I still worry about the Family Summon System, as i feel like its predicated to form Zergs. The Ability to summon 7 other players in a short amount of time will help zergs more than everybody else and feels generally out of place.

Songcaller

I doubt IS will remove Family Summons no matter how many of us are against the function.

Ludullu

Warth wrote: »

If the boss has a long window of possibly respawns, then forming raids for it will be reactionary and zergs will naturally be less pronounced.

Nah, the guilds will just get people with staggered playtimes. In L2 you had bosses that had +-5 or more hours, so you could potentially sit there waiting for 10++h for the boss to respawn, yet multiple guilds did just that with several parties at the very least. And with no TP in Ashes, the pressure to always be present at the boss respawn will be even higher.

The guild that manages to get enough members to be able to wait for a boss for 10+h, w/o losing the guild's effectiveness for both pve and pvp, will be the one who controls said boss. And imo they'd deserve it.

Andy

No TP + Multiple outdoor content (PvE) will spread players across the world.

So, it'll be hard to camp or "grief". But, for sure, you'll have to dedicate 5-8 players in your raid/group only to scout and PvP defense while doing a world boss.

What's the issue ? It's more like an additional mechanic during a boss encounter.

Hatham

NiKr wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

If the boss has a long window of possibly respawns, then forming raids for it will be reactionary and zergs will naturally be less pronounced.

Nah, the guilds will just get people with staggered playtimes. In L2 you had bosses that had +-5 or more hours, so you could potentially sit there waiting for 10++h for the boss to respawn, yet multiple guilds did just that with several parties at the very least. And with no TP in Ashes, the pressure to always be present at the boss respawn will be even higher.

The guild that manages to get enough members to be able to wait for a boss for 10+h, w/o losing the guild's effectiveness for both pve and pvp, will be the one who controls said boss. And imo they'd deserve it.

That sounds exactly as ff11 had with its Notorious monsters and hyper notorious monsters where people would wait days at a time for the kill.

Mag7spy

Warth wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Only issue I see is really the zergs, like that will make it difficult to create challenging content as people will just Zerg it down to beat it. I understand they will have some anti zerg stuff for pve. So how effective that will be is definitely a question, but also people could grief you by bringing a ton of people not to beat the boss but to make the raid more challenging and wipe the people doing it.

I can understand why some people want instanced bosses as it is the easier way if you cant find a solution. Though i don't think that should be the norm.

Irregular respawn timers are needed on top of reduced fast travel capabilities.
If people know the exact time of a respawn, then zergs will indeed form beforehand.
If the boss has a long window of possibly respawns, then forming raids for it will be reactionary and zergs will naturally be less pronounced.

I still worry about the Family Summon System, as i feel like its predicated to form Zergs. The Ability to summon 7 other players in a short amount of time will help zergs more than everybody else and feels generally out of place.

That is true, you would want to kill it asap. Unless you have a super guild you won't be able to zerg it or worry about other guilds to Zerg and ruin it for you.

Mag7spy

Neurath wrote: »

I doubt IS will remove Family Summons no matter how many of us are against the function.

I think family summon is fine as long as it is balanced, If the cooldown is shared between all family members. else you just show up and teleport 40 people instant from a few families.

Songcaller

We were all set to have no fast travel, then we got the node diaries and news that Scientific Node will have a fast travel. Then out of the blue the Family Summons system was announced. All you need is 8 people in a group who are all part of a different family. Even if there was a long cooldown shared between all family members, a group of 8 could rapidly deploy 16 vs 8 when required.

Warth

Neurath wrote: »

We were all set to have no fast travel, then we got the node diaries and news that Scientific Node will have a fast travel. Then out of the blue the Family Summons system was announced. All you need is 8 people in a group who are all part of a different family. Even if there was a long cooldown shared between all family members, a group of 8 could rapidly deploy 16 vs 8 when required.

@Neurath that's not correct.
The family summon, by the last information we received, would allow you to summon your entire family within the spawn of a 60 second cast.

So itcwouldn't be a 16 v. 8, but a 64 v. 8

Songcaller

Yeah, I was going by the previous posters calculations, not the official calculations. I'm against family summons in any form. If summoning was linked to the Mage or Warlock I would have less of an issue, but, its not linked to class or the game at all, its just tacked on for anyone to utilise. If it was a utility skill I would probably allow the feature because one could group up with the class in question when needed. Yet, the vast majority of players will not have access to full family summons - only those in guilds most likely.

BaSkA_9x2

I believe that the worry regarding Family Summon is justified, albeit too early. I absolutely agree that this system shouldn't exist, but I also understand why Steven wants to cater to a certain player type and add this feature. Steven is aware of the "abusability" of this feature, so I really hope he won't be bamboozled.

Steven and all of us know for a fact that especially tryhard groups, but anyone really, will abuse this system to gain advantages in a variety of ways if they can. The easiest way to visualize the abuse is this: imagine a guild has 96 members. This guild will have 12 different families with 8 guild members in each. What they will do is travel in a group of 12 people, each of them from a different family, and when they reach their destination they'll summon the remaining 84 players in a matter of minutes. And this number can go as high as you want. If a guild has 400 players, all they need is 50 "efficient families". Go somewhere in a group of 50, summon the other 350 people and proceed to do whatever you wanted to do.

If Steven does not want to give up the Family Summon, then they absolutely must nerf it and make it as useless as possible for any goal other than what was intended: "My concern is that the divide that's present in having a largely non-fast travel based traversal for the world might be a very significant encumbrance for more casual oriented players".

Simple ideas to nerf the Family Summon so that it's not so easily abusable by people with "tryhard" intentions but still useful for people who just want to meet up and play the game:

Both players being summoned must be in the capital/dominant Node of a ZoI. If that ZoI doesn't have a dominant Node yet, then any Node is fine.
The summon cast time is 5 minutes: you can move around, trade, craft, etc. but you cannot leave the city.
The account wide cooldown for summoning someone using the Family Summon is 30+ minutes.
The account wide cooldown for being summoned by the Family Summon is 48+ hours.
After successfully summoning or being summoned, you get a "pacifist" buff: unable to attack mobs or creatures for 10 minutes, but still able to get killed.

Will zergs still able to teleport any number of players they want to a city on the other side of the world? Yep, but at least now it's harder to be sneaky about it. And they'll be stuck there for 48 hours unless they run back to wherever they came from.

Warth

@BaSkA13

The system is intended for casual players to rejoin your friends easily instead of travelling for 60% of their daily online time.

I'm fine with that and i understand where he is coming from. As you said, it will mostly be used by the most active/dedicated guilds with optimized families...

I think there is one restriction that would shut this down completely and ensure that its only used for the intended design:

players can only be summoned if they, have played less than (TBD) 10 hours during the previous week.

Everybody can summon

Easy way to ensure those that want to abuse it won't be able to

You may even scale that so players who just exceeded it have a feelbad experience:

10-15h = 1 summon this week
5 - 10h = 3 summons
3 - 5h = 5 summons
1-3h = 7 summons

tautau

Another possible tweak to weaken family summons could be to make it that you cannot leave your family, ever. Just like irl, your family is your family for life. Once guilds form, disband, reform and so forth, the family summon ability will become less and less useful for zerging.

However, if someone joins a family through marriage, then that individual can divorce and leave the family. Some reasonable cool down for remarriage ought to apply.

Azherae

After thinking about it in this thread I know what I'd want instead of Family Summon.

"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.

If the main 'problem' the Family summon is meant to solve (people not being able to catch up with their friends when they don't have as much time to play and wanting to form up in group quickly), but this 'solution' also creates a bunch of problems, I'd settle for this.

1) I can still be killed but if rep is good in the area or the area is safe/secure for my Family in the first place, there's much less risk
2) The time to travel is not negated, only the player's need to pay close attention at all times to make sure they are going the right way
3) The summoning player would, if sensible, find a safe place to summon family to instead of 'wandering into some dungeon and then pulling everyone else past all the mobs magically'.

I can't speak for all players obviously but I personally don't usually have an issue 'finding the time to turn on the game and autorun somewhere', I just may not have the time to get there manually.

This would also allow for different escort services to work, or for 'having your best PvP player in the family join up with the one that will have to take the most dangerous path' and protect them, or stuff like that. Just make people's lives a LITTLE bit easier on gathering together without as much hassle, but they can keep all the risks.

If your family can manage to Autopath to a Boss location safely in potentially hostile territory, more power to them. Similarly if the whole Node wants to work together to bring down whatever threat, and people start 'summoning' their family, and no one attacks them on the way... great.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.

How would you feel if this worked offline as well? As in, you don't need to log into the game, but your character would still run towards the family summoner. This would put even more responsibility on the summoner, because now the summoned char can't fight back (though most likely they wouldn't be able to do that either way, cause the summoned player would most likely be afk), but this would serve a very similar service as the TP summon.

As I see it, the family TP is meant to completely cut out the time required to move from one place to the other. So if just one family member gets to login before the others, they can just summon everyone and they'll all play together once the others get online.

I'd assume guilds wouldn't use this system at all, cause they'd just get murdered by any gw player on their way to the summoner. And this wouldn't be usable to them when they're online, cause at that point they'd be better off running themselves.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

"Family Call Autopath", with most if not all of the same restrictions as the current Family Summon system.

How would you feel if this worked offline as well? As in, you don't need to log into the game, but your character would still run towards the family summoner. This would put even more responsibility on the summoner, because now the summoned char can't fight back (though most likely they wouldn't be able to do that either way, cause the summoned player would most likely be afk), but this would serve a very similar service as the TP summon.

As I see it, the family TP is meant to completely cut out the time required to move from one place to the other. So if just one family member gets to login before the others, they can just summon everyone and they'll all play together once the others get online.

I'd assume guilds wouldn't use this system at all, cause they'd just get murdered by any gw player on their way to the summoner. And this wouldn't be usable to them when they're online, cause at that point they'd be better off running themselves.

I wouldn't hate it, assuming all the same restrictions, but I feel it might get a little weird to have characters 'moving in game without actually being online'.

If that's what it takes, though, then I'm all for it. Heck if you REALLY want to make it helpful to the players I feel this is targeted at, make it so that if they die while autopathing during the call they respawn at the spawnpoint nearest to their own forward path, or if within a certain range, at the one nearest to their Calling family member.

Will some people use that to bloodport to family? Sure. But assuming that you don't WANT to take the exp loss from dying when you don't have to, still works. No worse than 'vanishing from the safety of my Freehold to appear wherever my Rogue is'.

Hatham

i feel like there will end up nerfing into the ground - its sounds too open to abuse and too powerful *the summon

Kardin

From what you have said about family summon, I can say 100% that if they don't put limitations or controls on it, something like that will destroy the game, even the fact that fast travel is something almost impossible to achieve (only the the top-tier science city can have it) it won't make any sense. At this point, just put in fast travel so that the solo player can do what guilds do too.

As for all other things, it seems that most of the people who replied on this post think the right course of action is "if someone exploits/troll/grief, you have to take care of it yourself", it seems to me that, both the people on the forum and the developers want this game to be driven by "player decision" and want to put freedom above all else, I can understand that but let's be honest, people suck, if they can take something, they will take it; if they can destroy something, they will destroy it; because if there are no rules, no laws and above all NO CONSEQUENCES from a "Major Force" (like the State irl, and the developers in a game), human beings are no different from a herd of locusts on a wheat field.

Looking around the previous information, I can already see how we, even as a solo player, can exploit/troll/grief almost everything and I don't think it's a good way to start the game with this mindset especially because, in the end they will have to fix and create systems to prevent these things from their side, we cannot expect the players themselves to solve these things, we are not in 2000 where technology does not allow many things to be done, and the fact that no one is talking of this it really worry me.
OLD = \ = GOOD
Now a lot can be done, and you can innovate in aspects that in the days of L2, Metin and the others of the time could not.
I personally have many good memories of those games and also of Wow, but looking at the past NOW with a CRITICAL EYE towards the gameplay and the contents I can say that they were all shitty games, maybe innovative and beautiful for their period but now not anymore.

Just take for example what happened with New World, to date it is 13k players, the peak at the release of the game was over 1 Million, in less than 6 months it has reduced for two simple reasons:
1. No endgame content
2. Wrong and poorly implemented systems and functions.
Some of you might say "Eh all the bugs in pvp, pve; The 7 or 8 bugs of duplicating items via auction, etc. etc." let me tell you if the game was nice and above all fun even with these bugs it would still have been played.

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