Character Class Balancing

Hello, at the start of this I just want to say I am putting this message forward because I love MMORPG games. But for a long time now I have become disenchanted by the lack comprehensiveness that I would like to see from a room full of well intending game developers.

Something I can not get over is that balancing is something that should be quite simple to understand how to do if you are considering all of the appropriate variables. It's undoubtedly not easy to measure out a dynamic combat system which is inherently balanced as well but all it takes is a little creativity and some careful consideration. In the call for balance, people look for direct correspondences. If you can deal 1000 damage in a time frame I should be able to, in that same frame of time, create an effect of an EQUIVALENT value. I have a lot of creative ideas how to change the damage and shielding and healing effects so that it is dynamic and would love to share more if you're interested. But the premise is very simple. And in my opinion its foolish to balance the game around any number of individuals who would have to come together. The individual is the most marginalized demographic and the more the game caters to the individual, the more the player engages the gaming environment as if it were it's own arbiter of fairness. The players need to feel the fairness at every level where it matters. Just one class that doesnt have a respectable foot hold in PVP imo represents an entire demographic of people that will lose passion to play the game when they find out the favorite Theme is Weak. The classes should have an identical capacity for damage and self preservation in PVP. And the game needs to be foremost designed around PVP. Without a level playing field elitism will reign supreme with the "Are you even trying attitudes" of meta gamers. It's very easy to augment a dungeon, or to add in some dungeon specific buff system which compensates for any short comings in the world environment. But if two players of unique classes come against each other to fight and one of them has a clear disadvantage ALL the time and it's not because they are good, then people feel some kind of way about that. I know I do. If you want the kind of game that would overtake WoW, it's my personal belief that you have to nail this. Even when WoW did the rock paper scissors design, I was still able to overcome the classes that were considered my weakness and that made the game so much more fun for me as a PVPer. I would love to be of help, hell I'd love to work for you guys even lol... I won't get my hopes up though but I will keep my creative concepts on standby if you want to pick my brain on this at all. Much love and I wish the best for this game.
P.S. I give this game free advertisement all the time at my work. Don't worry I tell it will be a couple years before it's lol...

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Cat Quiver

If you want to play an mmo revolving around the individual go shit them up instead of begging for another to be changed.

JamesSunderland

Killendel wrote: »

All of the Lineage 2 referencing has me concerned. It appears a core group of Lineage 2's player base seems to be interested in Ashes or maybe even be the inspiration for a lot of the developing team members. In all my life I have not heard of Lineage 2 so much. I feel like if this was a good idea, it would be an OBVIOUSLY a good idea which... emulating a game that had as small of a footprint as Lineage 2 had doesnt seem like the best move to me. No offense to anyone who played the game, or loved it or otherwise, but the game has never even been appealing enough for me try, both aesthetically, or game design wise. I will admit I havent really had the time or resources to measure out my design concept well enough to really demonstrate before a group of people. But I feel very strongly that a design concept of the nature I've described is the only way to go. Without Certifiable Balance among the classes themselves, then in PVP you will have an all too corruptible game theory for anyone to play under any sense of real free agency or fairness And that = Not Fun.

I seriously think that there has to be a way to balance down to the individual character, and that figuring it out is ESSENTIAL to creating a breakthrough MMO. If L2 was seriously that good, not only would I have heard more about it, I'd have played it. And main stay MMO's today would have copied their engine heavily, and it doesn't seem that way to me. I don't want to rain on anyone's creative parade whoever is apart of the development process, I just want to say like, if you are spending your money if you want this game to be a success would you not be willing to consider something new if it had the possibility of being a catalytic component of the game?

Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.

It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.

Mag7spy

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I wouldn't really expect at the moment any class winning like Rock paper scissors, its too early to judge at the moment how things will actually play out. Also Older games and modern games generally have different balance and skill ceilings even more so for the fact you will have action combat options in this game. There can be a lot of potential outplay akin to a fighting game, and you can have that sense when you go try hard and can wreck a bunch of people. We will will have to see more of the combat and how things work, and play it.

I'm pretty sure they said it was going to be rock paper scissors 'esque and honestly it makes sense for some classes to work that way.

I wouldn't bank on that until you see how the game actually plays its not simple when action combat stuff is involved with dodge and blocking. If you are out playing people (at a often rate) it isn't rock paper scissors.

Blood prophet found it

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes
Balancing

Balancing in Ashes of Creation is group focused not based on 1v1 combat.[2][15]

1v1 matchups will have a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, where one class will be superior to another.[15]

There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[15] – Steven Sharif

No esque to it.

Thanks I couldn't remember where it was

I'm saying someone thought and design can change when the game is created and tested and things work different than they were expecting. The mentioned elements will push it for players to make it work different than planned with the tools they have for combat.

Killendel

[/quote]

Don't worry, your clear lack of knowledge and baseless superficial assumptions about Lineage 2 to the point of not even having heard about it are perfectly understandable, as the game mainly shined in the East market and was fairly modest in term of numbers in the West market dominated by WoW.

It is fine for you to hold the opinion that a more class individualistc balance would be better over a Class party balance even tho i expect that you never played in a system like that to properly graps the depth a character class balancing like the one present in Lineage 2.[/quote]

My knowledge of Lineage 2 has nothing to do with my overall philosophy of the balancing being based off of an 8 man group being perceptively bad. And my argument was that if it was actually that good, it would have made a larger footprint in the MMO community than it has, specially being as old as it is. I dont need to know anything about Lineage 2 to suppose that it was just a bad game. The Meta Gaming community is already toxic enough without you literally building it into the group dynamic. It's simply not fun to play a game based on how other people are telling you to play it. I'd rather just go jack off. People don't actually want balance, people want sloppily lopsided class builds so we can see a legion of the same 8-12 classes of 64 perform the most grand and ethereal circle jerk MMO gaming has ever seen.

Dygz

It hasn't made a larger footprint in MMORPGs because the vast majority of MMORPGs are designed for PvE - with PvP added as an afterthought.

Killendel

Let me put it like this, if you can't conceptualize how to balance every class between each other, then you could probably never figure out how to actually balance any two classes between each other and will have a perpetually imbalanced game. Rife with meta's, and people telling you how to play on youtube.

Dygz

It was never really intended for every class to be balanced 1v1.
That's only a thing because gamers wanted to have PvP combat in MMORPGs.
But, RPG classes are intended to have a rock-paper-scissors design.

Ashes can't really have a META due to the Archetype design...and augments.
Some people will try to tell others there is a META, but we will know they are deluded.

Killendel

I like the rock paper scissors style, I hope its very reminiscent of that at least. However imo, the 1v1 balance would be best. I was thinking in order to make it work in an RPG there would have to be a PVP Tree and Dungeon Tree. I see how having two different trees would take away from the role playing dynamic a bit. I think it's a worthy sacrifice for creating a vacuum of sorts so that you can really meticulously balance things. As you describe things though Dygz, I feel like it will at least shape out to be an enjoyable game. You are a good ambassador to the brand.

tautau

Yeah, @Dygz knows his stuff.

One of the things which makes AoC so innovative is that it goes so far beyond PvP and Dungeons, which is what many gamers have grown up on. There are going to be many new and critical systems, such as the Node government types, caravans, lack of fast travel, animal husbandry, professions and the like which will befuddle many gamers who expect a game about PvP and Dungeons. I think you will really love it, @Killendel

And I grew up on L2, the first five years or so were pretty darn amazing.

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