DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

idk if that exactly is only achievable through passive skills

the point was to point towards an item stat and its breakpoint value

The point is: the breakpoint value should be irrelevant to success.

I guess you want to say that breakpoints shouldn't exist in ashes?

Not having hard breakpoints is easy, but I have never seen any rpg with more than 1 dps stat and those rpgs not having soft breakpoints

So if a soft breakpoint exists and you itemise in mind of those then you get from the gear more value than if you don't respect those breakpoints

Tragnar

@Mag7spy Oh yeees - having a tracker filter out combat log fluff and just count the amounts of interrupts in dungeon is so anti social

Mag7spy

Aerlana wrote: »

@Mag7spy

You are like a fanatic, that try to claim truths without even knowing what reality is...
you do lot of claims but never show proof of your claims... When people claims thing, with proof, you just explain why you consider it not relevant...

But you are just unable to give yourself any kind of proof to support your own claims "most people" what are most, what kind of people, etc etc.

Myself don't try to claim "everyone wants combat tracker" neither "no one wants" or "makority wants/don't wants" because i have no factual strict proof about the whole current community (which is far in number but also in the type of people we will have after the game is released... )

Now, lets get straight to your problem with combat tracker :

You spoke about gatekeeping... But the idea of nooani would generates gatekeeping only for a really few people... and in a way that will happens with or without it :
With combat tracker limited to guilds which decide to take it, and only able to show datas from guild members, this won't be able to see anyone else... But guilds mostly do high end content with... guild member.
The gatekeep so, will comes because some people who want to join the guild doesn't meet the requirements to become member (in consideration of guild officers / leader) and will be rejected.

So you fear a gatekeep ? really ? Does that mean you want to join any guild without to have to prove you fit in the guild ? If yes, you are totally on the toxic side... Yes, people that don't care their own efficiency can be toxic, losing the time of 39 other people in the raid.

Toxicity in video games doesn't follow a strict rule... If you join a group of players and doesn't fit their mentality, objectivs, you will be toxic, even if you are the nicer guy that walked the Earth.

You defend guide, guide that generates a lot of gatekeeping... because lot of people refuses the other because they didnt follow those guides... Those are the only time i was refused/kick in MMORPG : when people did saw my build didnt fit any of the guide they judge to be "the way to play"... I never was under-efficient for any content i joined in PU... while i rarely follow guides. I was denied not because i am a bad player, but because i was not playing how players expected me to play...

and i won't speak about all parties with "read guides / watch video or don't join" ... those are also kind of gatekeeping. It doesn't seems to be a problem for you right ?

Proof is in the comments its like 130+ pages now top of the thread, and people still don't agree with you after you have been fanatically fighting for it for years.

Stop capping with that bs about limited to guilds, i see right through you its simply a way to convince some people to try to say ok if it doesn't effect them without realizing down the line. Typical manipulation people can see through it if they are paying attention, you can use the same arguments on you being for trackers here and then apply to down the road to all third party trackers since the features won't be enough for them. Or because they are losing points they can put into something else when they can use their own "better" tracker in their subjective mind.

More BS on guides I see trying to say you are getting kicked for not following a guide. Stop trying to create a comparison to move your point it isn't going to work. Guide and trackers are two completely different things. Yes people can be toxic for anything but trackers only confirm toxic behavior even more so as the image of players is less of a player and more of a numbers.

We can run it 500 pages if you want, you aren't going to bring anything new and its going to be the same old bs with disingenuous points, trying to manipulate what people say and what they want, and your same continued points that are not going to convince people. All you can go back to is saying the studio will never be able to stop us so you have to use trackers which is more bs.

Mag7spy

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mag7spy Oh yeees - having a tracker filter out combat log fluff and just count the amounts of interrupts in dungeon is so anti social

You want to use a tiny element that is fine, yes people can naturally talk about them getting CC'd and figure it out and how it might help a fight.

Compared to someone looking at the tracker and telling people they are getting cc'd and waiting for the plan that follows next from the person.

Tragnar

Oh yes the old defaulting to:
"I don't respond to your point and here is my 100th rephrasing of my anti tracker manifesto, and no argument you ever write will not compel me to consider what you are saying"

SilverPact

Alrighty. Reading through a portion of this thread has been enlightening, and I have a few things to say.

1) DPS meters, HPS meters, Damage Dealt Amounts, absolutely ANY form of assessment of hard numbers after a raid is utterly worthless to a well-run raiding group. If you need it, you're bad at running a raid. And I welcome you to come compete with my guild on whatever server I pick. Thank you.

2) There is nothing about efficiency or skill that a DPS meter can tell me. All it tells me is what your numbers are. And that for a small period of time, yours are the highest. The only thing total damage done tells me is that you did the most damage. The only thing an HPS meter tells me is that you healed some amount at interval times. None of this matters. Not for me, at least. It can certainly be good information for your improvement as a player, but I couldn't care less. For the group, it does not matter.

3) Why does numerical information not matter in Ashes of Creation? Because your DPS doesn't tell me how many shots you missed. Or how many shots you hit. Or how many shots were fired. How many abilities you used. What your mana situation was like. What your equipment durability is at. How much damage the tank took at any particular time, which might have meant a change in strategy was needed. There are SO many things in Ashes that make a situation completely devoid of contextualization via "Meters".

4) Your elitism is pathetic, and you should feel bad. Who cares if JimmyThreeToes has a consistently lower DPS Meter amount? Man might be a kiting genius who can pull the boss around to give the healers time to heal up the tanks after a particularly difficult mechanic. Or maybe he has an interesting off build that redirects ads. Or maybe he's good at hopping in front of backliners during certain mechanics. Or maybe he's just a consistent player who shows up on raid night, and him having 2k less DPS doesn't matter, because a cohesive amount of teamwork and skill is far more valuable than the esoteric number on a meter at any given time.

Now, with that taken care of, here are a few thoughts that could ACTUALLY help raid leaders organize and improve their raid teams, hopefully non-biasedly.

1) After-Battle Assessments based on THAT particular raid performance. We already know that each raid will have ramping difficulty the better you do on earlier bosses. I believe a "Group Assessment" at the end of each boss, that gives the entire designated raid body a letter-based assessment for the fields that game takes note of to determine raid difficulty progression would be far more helpful to a raid team. No one is singling out Jimmy because the entire raid party's DPS was B, instead of A. And the assessment shouldn't allow the influence of any single player, amazing or atrocious, to heavily influence the final group assessment. You raid as a group, you get assessed as a group, and it is up to the raid leaders and squad leaders to actually LOOK at their own teams, their own groups, and identify for themselves who isn't keeping up. If you can't do that, maybe you're not cut out for raid leading.

2) Transparency about the statistics needed to advance difficulty. This can act as a "Stat Check" esoterically. I don't need to know JimmyThreeToes held back our group's DPS with a meter. I need to know our group was supposed to hit 50k damage in 1:48 to unlock the highest assessment to get the best possible rewards at the end, and we failed to do that. It's up to me as raid leader to work with my raid team and figure out how we can make that happen. That responsibility shouldn't fall on to anyone else. Especially not the individual members and their meters. If I know what A, B, C, and D ratings mean for the group as a whole in each assessed area, I know where my group needs to improve, and that's ALL the information I need to lead a raid successfully over time.

And here's a crazy opinion I have that might be unpopular: You don't need all the information. It's okay to fail. A raid shouldn't be a set-in-stone guaranteed success because you "Parsed the numbers" and "Weeded out the weak" and "Made preparations". All of that is just par for the course. Especially with ramping difficulty raids. Skill matters. And even the absolute best team can slip up sometimes. Should that slip up get someone kicked out? No. Grow up and gain some maturity. Maybe Fred had a rough week, and just needed to relax and raid with his group he's spent months growing with, and he happened to slip up a bit. It's not the end of the world to fail a raid. It's not the end of the world to not know whether you can "Guarantee" passing the stat check bosses. You should NEVER have guarantees going in to an AoC raid. You should have hopes, dreams, and aspirations. And you should strive to make them reality.

Tragnar

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mag7spy Oh yeees - having a tracker filter out combat log fluff and just count the amounts of interrupts in dungeon is so anti social

You want to use a tiny element that is fine, yes people can naturally talk about them getting CC'd and figure it out and how it might help a fight.

Compared to someone looking at the tracker and telling people they are getting cc'd and waiting for the plan that follows next from the person.

Riiiight did you ever see a dps player that is purposefully not interrupting and after a wipe telling everyone "Hey I didnt' feel like interrupting so I just didn't - sorry not sorry"

you can argue that raidleaders should be monitoring every raider with some responsibilities and then I'd outright say that you should get help

Mag7spy

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mag7spy Oh yeees - having a tracker filter out combat log fluff and just count the amounts of interrupts in dungeon is so anti social

You want to use a tiny element that is fine, yes people can naturally talk about them getting CC'd and figure it out and how it might help a fight.

Compared to someone looking at the tracker and telling people they are getting cc'd and waiting for the plan that follows next from the person.

Riiiight did you ever see a dps player that is purposefully not interrupting and after a wipe telling everyone "Hey I didnt' feel like interrupting so I just didn't - sorry not sorry"

you can argue that raidleaders should be monitoring every raider with some responsibilities and then I'd outright say that you should get help

And is say you are prob a bot that doesn't say much and waits for someone to tell you what to do else you aren't capable of doing content without hand holding.

MadCowCrazy

Didn't read every post so don't know if this has been mentioned but the absolutely best feature of Dps Meter in WoW was that you could see damage taken.

This meant that you could see when DPS players didn't care to dodge boss mechanics and blamed the healers for not healing properly.

DPS done, Healing done, Cleanses done and Damage taken and totals done for all of these were some of the most useful features available to a raid leader.
With this info you could figure out why you failed on an encounter because regardless of who blames who for not doing their job the data doesn't lie.

It's better if a DPS meter is included inside the game, if it's not someone will make a site you have to pay money to join to use some sort of dps calculator that may or may not pull data from the game to do it's calculations.

The one problem with a dps meter is that people who don't know what they are talking about rely too much on it to show how good they are at dps which leads to elitism.

I too can do uber dps if I don't move from the fire that dragon has farted on the ground, if I die I blame the healers for not doing their job, if I pull agro I blame the tank for sucking...

Tragnar

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

@Mag7spy Oh yeees - having a tracker filter out combat log fluff and just count the amounts of interrupts in dungeon is so anti social

You want to use a tiny element that is fine, yes people can naturally talk about them getting CC'd and figure it out and how it might help a fight.

Compared to someone looking at the tracker and telling people they are getting cc'd and waiting for the plan that follows next from the person.

Riiiight did you ever see a dps player that is purposefully not interrupting and after a wipe telling everyone "Hey I didnt' feel like interrupting so I just didn't - sorry not sorry"

you can argue that raidleaders should be monitoring every raider with some responsibilities and then I'd outright say that you should get help

And is say you are prob a bot that doesn't say much and waits for someone to tell you what to do else you aren't capable of doing content without hand holding.

Performance is a touchy subject to you huh? Don't worry ashes is welcoming to all ranges of skill

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

I guess you want to say that breakpoints shouldn't exist in ashes?

I think I said what I wanted to say.
Players should not need to see the numerical breakpoint values in order to succeed.

Tragnar wrote: »

So if a soft breakpoint exists and you itemise in mind of those then you get from the gear more value than if you don't respect those breakpoints

You shouldn't need to rely on a combat tracker to determine the value of your gear or abilities.

Bullvinne

I personally think DPS Meters and things like "Gear Score" ruined MMOS. I hope they do not allow it here. It will surely screw over many of the 64 proposed classes as only 1 viable tank and healer class will be figured out, and maybe 2-3 dps classes, then every other class will be useless for endgame. Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.

Tragnar

@Dygz You're right I won't rely on a tracker for it - i'll get it out of my custom sim - as i've done with every char i played in an mmo

what I wanted to aim for is to illustrate that having more than 1 damage item stat leads to changes in those stat real values - meaning that for example you have crit stat and strength stat - then each point in crit makes every strength point have more value and every point in strength makes every point in crit have more value

lets say without any stat your attack does 100 damage
with 100% crit and 0 bonus strength you do 200damage on average
with 0% crit and 100 bonus strength you do 200damage on average
however with 50% crit and 50 bonus strength you do 225damage on average

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

You're right I won't rely on a tracker for it - i'll get it out of my custom sim - as i've done with every char i played in an mmo.

Good for you!!

Tragnar wrote: »

what I wanted to aim for is to illustrate that having more than 1 damage item stat leads to changes in those stat real values - meaning that for example you have crit stat and strength stat - then each point in crit makes every strength point have more value and every point in strength makes every point in crit have more value.

And... what does that have to do with relying on combat trackers to evaluate the efficacy of crits?

Mag7spy

Bullvinne wrote: »

I personally think DPS Meters and things like "Gear Score" ruined MMOS. I hope they do not allow it here. It will surely screw over many of the 64 proposed classes as only 1 viable tank and healer class will be figured out, and maybe 2-3 dps classes, then every other class will be useless for endgame. Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.

Agreed, Steven h as said there won't be a dps meter but the game will have a combat log for people so they will have that information.

It is a small handful of the same people posting yelling for their trackers trying to say it makes the game more fun. People are just tired of arguing with them for years in a circle. They haven't realized and won't accept the large majority of the community agrees and doesn't want a dps meter.

Bullvinne

Mag7spy wrote: »

Bullvinne wrote: »

I personally think DPS Meters and things like "Gear Score" ruined MMOS. I hope they do not allow it here. It will surely screw over many of the 64 proposed classes as only 1 viable tank and healer class will be figured out, and maybe 2-3 dps classes, then every other class will be useless for endgame. Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.

Agreed, Steven h as said there won't be a dps meter but the game will have a combat log for people so they will have that information.

It is a small handful of the same people posting yelling for their trackers trying to say it makes the game more fun. People are just tired of arguing with them for years in a circle. They haven't realized and won't accept the large majority of the community agrees and doesn't want a dps meter.

Yeah but will they allow mods/addons? Then the people will make their own dps meters and it will have the same effect.

Mag7spy

Bullvinne wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Bullvinne wrote: »

I personally think DPS Meters and things like "Gear Score" ruined MMOS. I hope they do not allow it here. It will surely screw over many of the 64 proposed classes as only 1 viable tank and healer class will be figured out, and maybe 2-3 dps classes, then every other class will be useless for endgame. Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.

Agreed, Steven h as said there won't be a dps meter but the game will have a combat log for people so they will have that information.

It is a small handful of the same people posting yelling for their trackers trying to say it makes the game more fun. People are just tired of arguing with them for years in a circle. They haven't realized and won't accept the large majority of the community agrees and doesn't want a dps meter.

Yeah but will they allow mods/addons? Then the people will make their own dps meters and it will have the same effect.

They aren't allowing Add ons.

Dygz

Bullvinne wrote: »

Yeah but will they allow mods/addons? Then the people will make their own dps meters and it will have the same effect.

Mods/Addons are not allowed. Using them can result in bans.
Won't be the same effect because the devs will not be designing content with the expectation that everyone will be relying on DPS meters.

Mag7spy

Noaani

Bullvinne wrote: »

I personally think DPS Meters and things like "Gear Score" ruined MMOS. I hope they do not allow it here. It will surely screw over many of the 64 proposed classes as only 1 viable tank and healer class will be figured out, and maybe 2-3 dps classes, then every other class will be useless for endgame. Heck, that may still happen without DPS meters and gear score, but it will at least give them a fighting chance to be useful in endgame.

@Bullvinne

Totally agree with you on gear score, its a stupid concept in an MMO.

The amount of games where I've seen tanks running round with caster or healer gear simply because it gives them the gear score they needed to be invited along to the content they wanted to run...

As to a games meta (limiting the viable classes), a combat tracker will break this, rather than make it.

The first point to make here is that the game will have a meta. All games develop one, combat trackers or not. Archeage is a perfect example of a game similar to Ashes with low combat tracker usage, yet a very strict meta where if you were not one of three classes (out of 56) you were not coming along on a good amount of content.

With that in mind, there are two major causes for a game having a single build per class meta. The first is that the developers create the game that way - either purposefully or accidently. WoW is built this way on purpose, as an example.

The second barrier are players. Most MMO players have spent years - or indeed even decades - in games with monolithic metas. Essentially, it is what players will default to. This is actually the biggest barrier, as it is players that create the meta and so if is going to be created with the expectation of a monolithic structure.

So, two issues - developers and player expectations.

For developers, I personally believe that Intrepid have the desire to build their class system in a way where many builds per class are viable. I also believe they have the ability to pull that off.

This just leaves player expectation. The only real way to break decades of built up monolithic meta expectation is to show - with hard, objective data - that many builds are viable in different situations. The only way to do this, is to use a combat tracker.

It should stand to reason that if the game does indeed have builds that are viable in different situations, and if players have objective data on those builds, a multi-build meta would be accepted. The only way a game can have both trackers and a monolithic meta is if the game actually has class balance that only leaves one viable build.

---

As to the point about add ons, they are indeed against the rules. However, an add on is something that you add to the game client. Applications that are their own thing are not covered on the add on rule. Combat trackers such as ACT are their own application, and thus not add ons, and so not covered under the no add on rule.

Combat trackers have already been used to parse develop livestream footage - so essentially trackers for Ashes already exist that are not against any currently stated rule (and not able to be covered by any future rule).

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