DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You can see what you are doing dps wise if you test your damage against mobs and do a lot of test attacks. Meters are toxic and that is what it will lead to in people focusing on the bad dps without understanding reasons for it.

In what situations will there be toxicity due to trackers in Ashes?

Will it be in pick up groups, or guild groups?

I'll let you in on a tip - pick up groups in Ashes will be a very rare thing. People wont want to group up with people they do not know. 95%+ of all groups will be with people you know in some form.

As such, the scope for toxicity from trackers is damn close to zero - unless you consider a good friend trying to help you out to be toxic - in which case you are the toxic person and no matter what happens, toxicity will follow you around.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

As such, the scope for toxicity from trackers is damn close to zero

So you finally admit that toxicity from trackers is non-zero.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As such, the scope for toxicity from trackers is damn close to zero

So you finally admit that toxicity from trackers is non-zero.

I never said it wasnt.

I said I have literally never seen it first hand, and so have asked others for examples where they think they have seen toxicity due to trackers that wouldn't happen otherwise. Most of that toxicity that has been talked about it actually caused by other things (players not sticking to the meta) and would exist with or without trackers.

If anything, the demand on players to stick to the games meta is even stronger without a tracker than with it.

A key thing to remember though, minimal toxicity from trackers is not a reason to not have them. There are definite advantages to them (you may never have seen that advantage, but remember that I have never seen that toxicity), and it is simply a matter of whether the amount of toxicity they add to the game is greater or lesser than the amount of good they bring to the game.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

MrPockets wrote: »

Based on your idea, it seems like you admit that toxic behavior CAN be caused by specific tracker features. Or maybe you don't think that, and this is your attempt at a compromise?

In 20+ years playing MMO's, I've never once seen any toxic behavior caused by combat trackers, yet I have used them for all but the first month or so of that time.

As such, I do not believe that trackers cause toxicity. If you believe they do, I'd ask you to explain the above.

However, I am aware others have experienced toxicity that involve trackers. I'm not at all saying these situations do not happen - I am simply saying that trackers are not inherently the cause of them.

So, the suggestion is an attempt at a compromise. It eliminates the bulk of the situations where players see

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Its toxic and everyone knows it, honestly doesn't matter if you don't want to believe that because it doesn't fit what you want to get out of using a meter and viewing all people in your party.

I mean, there have been dozens of people post in this thread alone that the notion that a combat tracker being thought of as toxic is just outright incorrect - so no, not everyone knows it.

Also, since games exist with combat trackers and communities that are very low in toxicity, it is easily demonstrable that the statement "trackers cause toxicity" is false.

These are things you - and everyone else - just ignore. You basically close your eyes and cover tour ears in order to ignore actual evidence, and just repeatedly tell "everyone knows trackers cause toxicity", while sitting with your legs crossed, rocking back and forward.

@Noaani Sorry If I misrepresented your previous statements, hopefully you can see why someone might misunderstand your opinion.

Noaani wrote: »

it is simply a matter of whether the amount of toxicity they add to the game is greater or lesser than the amount of good they bring to the game.

Based on the current stance of the studio, it would seem they believe the amount of toxicity they bring is greater than the good the bring.

You seem to want to prove otherwise...but something as subjective as "toxicity" can't be proven, and the best we can do is uphold the majority's opinion.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

Noaani Sorry If I misrepresented your previous statements, hopefully you can see why someone might misunderstand your opinion.

I mean, I did literally ask people to change my mind..

I'm fully aware people think toxicity can come from a tracker, and fully willing to believe that is the case at times. Hiwever, so far I have neither seen it happen, nor heard anyone give an example of where it would happen with a tracker but not without.

As to my stance that you can not say that trackers cause toxicity, that remains true. Again, if that were true, games like EQ, EQ2, Rift, DDO, LotRO and a number if others would have toxic communities, as they have high tracker use.

Since the above games are among the least toxic MMO communities around, and since Archeage has a toxic as all hell community with low tracker use, that essentially disproves the statement that trackers cause toxicity.

If you look at the two MMO's with the most toxic communities (WoW and Archheage, imo) the thing they have in common that games with low toxicity do not have, is a means of automatically forming groups, and automatically replacing people in said groups.

The other thing with this is that on both games, toxicity began in the parts of the game where groups were able to be formed automatically, and moved out from there (you can see this in WoW quite clearly in the late 2000's).

As such, literally any and all toxicity that happens while in a group formed via these systems (LFG and LFR in WoW) is a result of those systems, not of combat trackers.

This is because if you didnt have trackers, that toxicity would still be there (Archeage is your example), but if players had to form their own groups but still had trackers, that toxicity wouldn't be there (EQ, EQ2, Rift, DDO, LotRO and a number if others are your examples this time).

The thing people are missing is that literally every situation where toxicity exists, there is a friction point of people present having differing expectations of what they each should be doing. If you join a group with the expectation of setting back, relaxing, chatting, joking, RP'ing or what ever, but the group has plans to push through content as quickly as they can, there is a friction point that will result in toxicity.

People present do not need a tracker to be able to tell that you are not interested in performing at the speed the group wants you to perform at, so even if they are showing you numbers from a tracker and saying you are not fast enough, that friction isnt a result of the tracker still.

In this case, the friction - and thus toxicity - is a result of differing expectations. The tracker is just an easy way for the group to be able to show you what they think you are doing wrong. That isnt to say there wasnt a negative experience had - it was just an experience that wasnt a direct result of the tracker existing

So, while I dont doubt that toxicity that directly results from a tracker exists, I have yet to see it, or to hear about it. I haven't even heard hypothetical situations where it could happen - just situations where a tracker is present at the same time toxicity is present.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

In this case, the friction - and thus toxicity - is a result of differing expectations. The tracker is just an easy way for the group to be able to show you what they think you are doing wrong. That isnt to say there wasnt a negative experience had - it was just an experience that wasnt a direct result of the tracker existing

So, while I dont doubt that toxicity that directly results from a tracker exists, I have yet to see it, or to hear about it. I haven't even heard hypothetical situations where it could happen - just situations where a tracker is present at the same time toxicity is present.

Alright, apparently my examples from before were not clear enough, so I guess it's story time. I will attempt to regale you with my most recent raiding experiences in WoW (with tracker) vs FF14 (without tracker).

I will preface this with:
* This is not an attempt to say all trackers lead to these situations, but show an example of WHY people have opinions against trackers. *

WOW
Back at the start of shadowlands, I was in a casual guild who was progressing through normal/heroic difficulties. We had players of all sorts of skill levels, and those players at different levels of inebriation. We'd typically take a while to fully understand boss mechanics, but something that made that more difficult was WoW's deep rooted culture of DPS meters. We had a handful of players of who would focus so much on being top of the chart, that they would fail to do/avoid basic boss mechanics (those players would admit that). And then after each boss, players would rush to see their "parses" on the log site, turning the whole raid experience into a pissing contest instead of a fun/challenging time with some friends.

IMO: without those DPS tools/ log websites that experience is dramatically different, and in my opinion would feel less "toxic".

There are many solutions to this problem: different tools, different players, etc. But I don't see how you can deny that the tracker/DPS meter itself helped caused this specific negative raiding experience. Would those players have been "toxic" without these tools? Personally, I don't think so, since their "toxic" behavior stemmed from the data that the tools provided.

FF14
Now let's look at some raiding I did in Endwalker, where trackers/DPS meters are more "hush, hush". I was part of yet another casual guild, again players of many skill levels. This time around we were attempting a savage raid, and focus was on learning boss mechanics, and having a good time/laugh. Because of the game's stance on meters being against ToS (even if no punishment is ever taken); the average casual player didn't ever bother getting one set up. Coming from WoW, it was refreshing to not have to listen to the whole parsing contest.

IMO: this was a much more enjoyable raiding experience, that is MUCH easier to come across in FF14, BECAUSE the tracker/meter culture isn't ingrained in the casual player base.

Conclusion:
While non-toxic groups can form with trackers/DPS meters, when those tools become part of the player culture, there will be many more toxic groups that form. A player looking to have a more casual raiding experience, is going to have a much harder time finding that, if almost every player misuses these types of tools. It is probably better for those tools to not be in the hands of the masses.

Dygz

There are no examples that will alter Noanni's pov.

Mag7spy

@MrPockets Ya that guy doesn't care what people think. he just wants what he wants. If you go back to page one people have wrote pages and he doesn't care he just writes them back.

His goal is just to keep this at the top of the page and respond to everyone and try to convince them to agree with him even if not fully so he can say you support trackers, even if you prefer the game without it and say it.

Though it is kind of funny how it stays at the top and people continue to disagree with him lol.

edit Also he doesn't play the games you mentioned he pretty much plays EQ2

Asgerr

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well

The great thing about objective data is that it eliminates the need for trust.

You dont need to trust me, and I dont want Intrepid to trust me. However, if I show them hard data that says something is wrong, I expect them to believe that data.

As to doing this without a combat tracker, some of the bugs I have found would have taken multiple thousands of hours to find without a tracker. That would be a big "nope" from me.

Data may be objective, but interpretation of said data is often biased.

MaiWaifu

Asgerr wrote: »

Data may be objective, but interpretation of said data is often biased.

I agree, not only is there interpretation bias it's also the scope of data available. People draw the wrong conclusions from limited data all the time.

This video is pretty good at explaining the various bias:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9WFpVsRtQg

Dizz1

nothing

akabear

Dygz wrote: »

There are no examples that will alter Noanni's pov.

4,100 posts on the topic have done little other than show a strong and often heated divide.

Hazard a guess, the discussion likely reaffirmed the stance on toxicity and identified a wider range of issues only further grounding their decision.

Wonder how many are on a watch list now for advising they will use a tracker if approved or not.

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

Alright, apparently my examples from before were not clear enough

No, they were.

You seem to be missing my point.

The issues come when players with differing expectations meet.

In your WoW example, some people were just there to have fun and try and out DPS, and some were trying to actually kill the mob. If the entire raid was just try to do one or the other, everyone present would have had more fun. If someones goal is to top the DPS meter, then that is their goal, killing the encounter is not. Trying to top the DPS meter is a form is clowning around - those players would have been clowning around regardless of if a combat tracker was being used or not.

In your FFXIV group, everyone was on the same page.

Your conclusion here shouldn't be anything at all to do with trackers - it should be that groups of players with the same goal will always have more fun than groups of players that have different goals.

Edit; regard less of the differing goals of your WoW guild, if your guild had anyone that knew what they were doing, they could have configured the combat tracker to only display the DPS of people that were meeting the requirements of the encounter - thus in order to top the tracker, you needed to do what was required.

As such, the issue that you claim was caused by a tracker could have indeed been solved by a tracker, if only you knew how to use it.

Even if you wish to blame the tool here rather than the different expectations of your guild, at best you should be blaming the fact that no one seems to have known how to use the tool properly.

Your guild being incompetent isn't anyone else's issue, nor anyone else's fault, imo.

Noaani

Asgerr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also i don't trust our ass so there is that as well

The great thing about objective data is that it eliminates the need for trust.

You dont need to trust me, and I dont want Intrepid to trust me. However, if I show them hard data that says something is wrong, I expect them to believe that data.

As to doing this without a combat tracker, some of the bugs I have found would have taken multiple thousands of hours to find without a tracker. That would be a big "nope" from me.

Data may be objective, but interpretation of said data is often biased.

You are absolutely correct.

However, what you are forgetting is that one of the many things that is more biased than interpretations of objective data is interpretations of subjective data.

In the absence of objective data. players will replace it with subjective data - and will interpret that with that even greater bias.

Mag7spy

If we keep telling him maybe he will understand

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

If we keep telling him maybe he will understand

Keep telling me what?

That groups of players with differeing goals will often end badly for at least some of those present?

I already know that.

That groups of players that have similar goals (such as the above FFXIV example, and my entire time in EQ2) will often result in everyone enjoying themselves?

I mean, even if we drop the notion of LFG and LFR (or other automated group forming systems), every single time people talk about a bad experience in an MMO, the one consistent is the differing expectation of players present. Even if trackers aren't even being used - if players have different expectations of what the group or raid is about, then someone will have a bad time.

If who ever is responsible for that group of players assembling is clear up front with the expectation and goal of said group, then everyone is in a position to have a good time.

Perhaps that is why I have never seen toxicity from a tracker - I ensure people all have the same goal. I'll leave you to ponder that one.

MrPockets

Noaani wrote: »

You seem to be missing my point.

The issues come when players with differing expectations meet.

@Noaani I feel like we are very close to the same page. I 100 % agree with this. But also, you are missing MY point.

My argument is that the accessibility/acceptability of these tools changes how said players behave. In the WoW example, if addons were generally frowned upon, I am of the opinion that the player expectations would be more aligned.

As you've said many times, the top players are going to have these tools regardless. The problem comes in when the bottom 90% of players misuse these tools, and by doing so create more situations where "players with differing expectations meet."

I'm not against the tools themselves, I just think that making them accepted among the larger player base leads to more people having trouble finding other with similar expectations. I feel like WoW and FF14 are perfect examples of the 2 sides of the coin. FF14 is not without its toxic players, but it is wildly viewed as a better social experience, and I believe there is a valid argument that square's stance on meters has contributed to that 'better social experience'

Dygz

I think Noaani will say "In that case, just give those tools to the top end 1%."

Noaani

MrPockets wrote: »

In the WoW example, if addons were generally frowned upon, I am of the opinion that the player expectations would be more aligned.

People that enjoy clowning around will enjoy clowning around. The absence of trackers wouldn't stop this, but getting those people on the same page as everyone else would.

Even if you do not agree with the point about trackers, I am sure you agree with the point about getting them on the same page.

Essentially, this is a failing at the guild level. Most guilds recruit like minded players, players that want the same thing out of a game. This is kind of the point of guilds.

If your guild is just inviting any player that wants to join in, then yeah, that is the problem.

As you've said many times, the top players are going to have these tools regardless. The problem comes in when the bottom 90% of players misuse these tools

The fact that some people do not know how to use a tool is not a reason to prevent those that do know how to use it from having it. All it is, should you apply logic to this situation, is a reason to provide more education on trackers.

If everyone understands how to use trackers properly, no one can misuse them. In fact, if even just one person in a group, guild or raid knows how to use them properly, they can prevent the entire group, guild or raid from misusing them.

However, if we want to just ignore the fact that education is important in terms of not misusing tools, we can always just restrict their availability. This is where you give players the option of taking them, or taking something else.

People that understand the value of a combat tracker can then have one. People that don't understand can take a boost to how many resources they gather, or a higher percentage change to gain a certificate when they kill a mob or something like that.

This is essentially a more polite way of dealing with what Dygz said above. He knew this is what I would say because him and I had this exact same discussion several years ago.

If the issue is that some people don't know how to use a tracker, give them something they will deem better than a tracker and leave the tracker to those that actually fully understand it's value.

What I don't get is exactly how you think Intrepid will stop that 90% from using a tracker if they want to use one.

---

To your WoW vs FFXIV example, you are essentially cherry picking games there. It may be the games you have the most experience in, but in that situation you should still consider the experience of others in other games.

WoW is toxic, we all agree. It has combat trackers able to be used openly.

FFXIV is less toxic than WoW - I will have to take your word for this, as a result of my lack of experience in this game. It has combat trackers but people tend to be somewhat closed about them.

EQ2 is less toxic than WoW - you may need to take my word for this, as a result of your lack of experience in this game. It has combat trackers and people use them openly, just as they do in WoW.

EQ2 is that better social experience over WoW in the same way that FFXIV is.

Archeage is even more toxic than WoW. Almost no one in that game uses a combat tracker.

What this means is that you can't point to trackers as the reason for these two games being the better social experience. Good social experiences and bad social experiences are in games both with and without high tracker use. The fact that you have only played games with high tracker/high toxicity and low tracker/low toxicity does not mean that high tracker/low toxicity and low tracker/high toxicity games don't exist.

All it means is that you haven't played those games.

---

My issue here really is that what you are arguing for is literally the thing you don't want.

So, we agree that trackers will be a factor in Ashes - those that want them will have them. From there, if limiting trackers to those that know what you are doing is what you want to do (I prefer education), then literally your only option is for Intrepid to implement them and find a way to restrict them. If they are third party applications, then literally everyone is able to get hold of them.

It's not like the FFXIV situation can ever happen again, because people know developers can't stop them. There will never again be an initial period in a game where people aren't sure if they can use a tracker or not. Everyone will start every MMO from now on knowing that trackers are a thing they have the option to use - and those distributing them won't limit it to people that know what they are doing.

In fact, since much of the discussion in groups and raids in Ashes will be via voice chat rather than text, and since voice chat isn't going to be recorded and thus people can't be banned for talking about trackers, Intrepid can't even have the policy of not talking about trackers in the game like FFXIV has.

As a TL;DR here, in arguing against built in trackers that allow Intrepid to put a limit on who has access, what you are really doing is just handing access over to literally anyone that wants it.

If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what you do not want, yet is the only conclusion to the argument you are making.

This is what I do not understand.

You are building your argument and just hoping the end result that you want will fit. You should perhaps start with the end result you want, and work back.

If I am not mistaken, you want trackers not in the game at all - you know that won't happen.

From there, my understanding is that the next best thing is trackers only in the hands of those that know how to use them - how do we achieve this?

Mag7spy

Trackers do not need to be given to anyone so they can attempt to gather more information over playing and learning through actual experience in the game and using your brain. Literally wants a trackers so yo can see everyone that is being done and know faster method to more effectively counter something. Game design doesn't need to be made around trackers so nor should it be pushed or accepted.

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