Aerlana wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » It isn't a choice, that is a cop out to get trackers into the game to allow people to use their own third party trackers and attempt to make them standard. Any competitive guild will simply ignore the perk get something else and use a third party tracker since the game allows for trackers. An ingame tracker for reasons will be better than any third party. tracker in FFXIV are called parsers because... they parse. they literally read the combat log, and convert it into datas easy to read. But it has flaws. When i was still playing, DOT/HOT were not clear information even in the log, (if i remember well it was just [Character] does XXX damages to [target]) And was quite a problem to do a well analysis for summoner/scholar by itself. Also, due to this system two people of the same party on same fight had slightly different results. not big deal, it was other players character that were not totally accurate (and still close to reality). With ingame built tracker, you don't parse, you can do it far more accurate, and even gives some minor informations that you won't put in combat log (that are already heavy). A good ingame combat tracker will be more efficient than third party one. Also : on FFXIV, they can't ban tracker users, (as they can't mod users, also totally against TOS) They can't have proof, and their ban of anyone kicking other people explaining "my parser says you are bad DPS" made a simple reaction : silent kick, no one speak about it. . . fflogs is not even a proof of parser use : one player in any team will parse the 8 man of the party, and upload it. It is impossible for SE to know who out of those 8 did use the parser... And i claimed using parser on forum, never banned... because this claim could be fake, and so, they would ban me without good reason that can be a problem. so yes on topic using parser, people claimed using it or not using it and... nothing happened. Now lets get in AoC with guild perk tracker. We will have an official tracker, people can use to theorycraft, speak with other, share their experimentation, results, and discuss. In such situation sharing data from tracker are a common thing right ? If anyone come, and share information that can be verified (so not just "my tracker said i was doing 23789 DPS" ) but that is clearly not the official tracker (because the screenshot is obviously another one for example) it will for sure be anyone using a third party tool... And probably, in AoC tos as in FFXIV, WoW or any mmorpg i know TOS : third party tools are forbidden. there you can kick him. And in theorycraft discussions, people have to share informations, and have to be able to be sure the information are not fake. If you want to discuss on forum about datas, and sharing yours, you will have to share it from the official tracker. you will say "BS people will use a third party not the official, and not share information on forum" lets admit this case... ... What is the difference with the current situation you are defending ? I highly doubt it after being one of those guild, but even if you are true, this idea will just have the same result as if it didnt exist... loss = 0 Maybe i would use this one even if risky, due to my will to push myself higher to help friends better... but people with bad behaviour almost want to show how big their D...PS is they want to prove it, to flex ! not my case of player in casual group that want to minmax his gameplay for the simple fun to... minmax it... This guild perk is a way to have a limited and regulated use of tracker on the game. If it fails, it will change nothing in the current situation. The question it is not "will people be able to use tracker or not" but "how people will use it ?"
Mag7spy wrote: » It isn't a choice, that is a cop out to get trackers into the game to allow people to use their own third party trackers and attempt to make them standard. Any competitive guild will simply ignore the perk get something else and use a third party tracker since the game allows for trackers.
MrPockets wrote: » Noaani Do you mind humoring me for a sec? I'm hoping to better understand where you are coming from. A quick thought experiment. Let's say we have an MMO that managed to hide all their combat information to the point where trackers couldn't provide any information. Let's also assume that the game's top end is just as difficult as any other MMO we are used to. Could you see yourself having fun in that game?
MaiWaifu wrote: » Noaani wrote: » The potential issue that I am sure you will bring up about top end players trivializing content designed for low end players due to having a tracker is a non-issue - that content is already trivial to us, which is precisely why it is low end content. Yeah this is the part that I have issue with. If the idea is that the same resources such as iron or leather is meant to be relevant at all levels. It means content which provide them will just be brain dead and boring once you hit max level, this is without even min-maxing using a tracker to make it more efficient.
Noaani wrote: » The potential issue that I am sure you will bring up about top end players trivializing content designed for low end players due to having a tracker is a non-issue - that content is already trivial to us, which is precisely why it is low end content.
Noaani wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » Noaani Do you mind humoring me for a sec? I'm hoping to better understand where you are coming from. A quick thought experiment. Let's say we have an MMO that managed to hide all their combat information to the point where trackers couldn't provide any information. Let's also assume that the game's top end is just as difficult as any other MMO we are used to. Could you see yourself having fun in that game? Less fun, as analyzing data, finding efficiencies, anomalies and other such things is a part of the fun to people like me. While I understand that not everyone enjoys these things, not everyone needs to enjoy them. A guild only needs one person willing and capable of using a tracker properly.
Fiia wrote: » Personally, I love trackers because I really love min-maxxing and trying to get the most out of my class and gear. Imo not having any kind of dps estimation options limits the design of boss encounter mechanics, e.g. if players do not have the option of estimating their dps then you cannot include hard boss enrage phases that require the raid group to do x amount of total dps. Furthermore, for me (and this is just my feeling) not doing high dps is like failing my group, I want to be sure to contribute as best as I can towards completing the task, e.g. killing raidbosses. I'd be content with having a built-in tracker that just tells you whether you're doing good damage or not, e.g. it has 5 indicators that tell you how good your current dps is: low dps, low-mid dps, mid-dps, mid-high dps, high-dps. (I know this would come with lots of implementation "baggage", but I don't want to do a deep dive, it's just an idea) And to those of you who are of the belief that trackers are unnecessary, I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that time and time again it has been shown that you cannot get rid of them, FFXIV is probably the most prominent example of that. I think the only way to circumvent that is to approach this by offering players a compromise. That said, I think the tracker should absolutely not show any kind of incoming damage and other types of statistics, e.g. number of interrupts, otherwise it really is, as others have stated, a kind of cheat that makes encounters too easy.
SongRune wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. One question though. Couldn't they just ask the healer? Like, I'm fighting the boss; the boss does some mechanic that brings me to low hp; I see that I'm at low hp and expect a heal; the heal doesn't come, I die and the raid wipes. I then ask the healer why the heal didn't come (assuming that I did everything correct and the boss mechanic wasn't avoidable at that particular moment). Healer just tells me that he was CCd. I played a solo healer for a 36member raid a few times back in L2. The mechanics themselves weren't too complex, but because L2 didn't have any raid addons (or at least I've never used/seen them) - I had to know the voices of players in different groups so that I could heal individual players correctly (L2 didn't have raid-wide heals) and I needed to know mechanics to know when I'd be needed the most. Theoretically, if it's not the very first attempt at the boss, you'd know the potential mechanics of said boss and would know which ones are the most dangerous ones (at least that'd be my expectations for the raid, if I was a RL). So if the raid wipes due to one member dying after a particular mechanic, I'd assume it shouldn't have taken up too much of healer's "ram" to remember that he was CCd during the last mechanic and that was the reason for the wipe. So he'd be able to answer my question w/o much trouble and w/o either side needing a tracker. Maybe in some games it's that straightforward. But if the reason is that the Healer had to heal the Summoner because a Summon fell at the wrong time, and they took an extra hit before they could resummon it due to ability cooldowns, and in that time the boss used a CC ability on the DPS which needed to be cleansed afterward. Then you the Tank took a decent hit but the big heal wasn't off cooldown yet so you used your own, at which point the Healer didn't need to heal you right away, and could prioritize other (originally) less injured party members and finally get around to dealing with the extra Poison effect from the boss that was busy ticking while they were saving the Summoner from a cooldown issue. Five minutes later when you finally reach the end of the fight, win or lose, the question you the Tank are wondering isn't "Why couldn't you heal me, so we wiped just now?". It's "Why was it so hard to keep my MP up in the last half?" You don't remember the missing healing, because rhythms shift, and because it's natural to sometimes have to heal yourself. The summoner never associated them taking that hit with you spending MP in the first place. The boss just happened to use Poison Aura more often today. And you, at the end, don't even remember that extra healing beat or two that fell on you, because you were focused on the actual fight for the next 3-4 minutes before things finally broke down, and that self-healing requirement is normal, it just came up a few times too often. In the end, the ANSWER, wasn't even any of that. The Bard missed an ability speed buff on the Summoner because someone's positioning was a bit off, and the Summoner eventually got unlucky as a result (and maybe that happened twice). Who do you even ask? There's not much reason you would remember those specific extra self-heals. The Healer doesn't know for sure why the Summoner got hit. The Summoner feels like it was just bad luck on timing. The Bard didn't notice that the Summoner got knocked back while they were singing the "Speed Boost" buff that was supposed to have fixed the timing. And the Boss may have even used more abilities later on that also made you spend more MP, as a red herring. Literally no-one even knows, and those who do don't remember, because to NOBODY was their part of this chain of events more than 10% of what they had to focus on in fight as a whole. But you could ask a tracker: Tank: "Where'd my MP go?" Tracker: "You self-healed more frequently than usual during this period." Healer: "Then how much was I healing at that point, and who?" Tracker: "You healed the Summoner 5 times in that part of the fight." Healer: "Hm. Odd. I should only have needed to heal them two times." Summoner: "Why'd I have so much trouble getting that summon off? Was the boss just extra lucky today?" Tracker: "You only managed to heal each summon 3 times today instead of 4, due to cooldowns." Summoner: "Wait, that's not right, why was I slower than ususal?" Bard: "Hm? I sang the usual things." Tracker: "The Summoner was out of range for the third recast of Speed Boost." Party, after all of this: "Oh." Summoner: "Well that sucks. I'll watch for that and call out if I get caught by cooldowns again." Bard: "Hm. Okay, then that means I probably need to stand over here instead, even though I'm more likely to get hurt." Healer: "I can afford to heal you at that POINT in the fight. The problem only comes up later on, after you're done with your buffing." Tank: "Okay, cool. I won't fix it, cause it ain't broke, and I'd only end up making things worse." A difference of perspective. Maybe Ashes will be simplistic. "You wipe right away." instead of "This problem cost you some of your ability to adapt, and you didn't have enough left later on." If every mistake instantly ends the raid, rather than demanding adaptation and allowing the opportunity to recover through skill, resources, or luck, I'm going to be a bit disappointed.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened. One question though. Couldn't they just ask the healer? Like, I'm fighting the boss; the boss does some mechanic that brings me to low hp; I see that I'm at low hp and expect a heal; the heal doesn't come, I die and the raid wipes. I then ask the healer why the heal didn't come (assuming that I did everything correct and the boss mechanic wasn't avoidable at that particular moment). Healer just tells me that he was CCd. I played a solo healer for a 36member raid a few times back in L2. The mechanics themselves weren't too complex, but because L2 didn't have any raid addons (or at least I've never used/seen them) - I had to know the voices of players in different groups so that I could heal individual players correctly (L2 didn't have raid-wide heals) and I needed to know mechanics to know when I'd be needed the most. Theoretically, if it's not the very first attempt at the boss, you'd know the potential mechanics of said boss and would know which ones are the most dangerous ones (at least that'd be my expectations for the raid, if I was a RL). So if the raid wipes due to one member dying after a particular mechanic, I'd assume it shouldn't have taken up too much of healer's "ram" to remember that he was CCd during the last mechanic and that was the reason for the wipe. So he'd be able to answer my question w/o much trouble and w/o either side needing a tracker.
Azherae wrote: » Let's assume that a team member is counting on me to heal them and I keep getting frozen/stunned/knocked back when I try to, the Tracker tells them 'during this period no healing happened'. The Combat Log parser often tells them WHY no healing happened.
Amaa wrote: » This is simple, if the creators want to create difficult PvE on a level, the damage / healing meter is needed because: a. It affects the overall balance of the game, you can see what the class is OP, and it should be nerfed and vice versa b. On difficult bosses, not only tactics count is the most important !!, you will not kill the boss if someone dps/heal let's say 1/3 of what others do, and by a couple of such people all of them they die. In general, weak players prefer to live in the shadows, and they are always on "no", the simple solution you do not want, do not use, let others have fun too In general, human creativity knows no limits and I have always been for "all addons" you have SWTOR or New World and a lot of other games where the "no" dmg metter is, and a handful of people play there, because no one knows who is playing well, who is playing badly, there is no competition, there is nothing ..
SongRune wrote: » Fiia wrote: » Personally, I love trackers because I really love min-maxxing and trying to get the most out of my class and gear. Imo not having any kind of dps estimation options limits the design of boss encounter mechanics, e.g. if players do not have the option of estimating their dps then you cannot include hard boss enrage phases that require the raid group to do x amount of total dps. Furthermore, for me (and this is just my feeling) not doing high dps is like failing my group, I want to be sure to contribute as best as I can towards completing the task, e.g. killing raidbosses. I'd be content with having a built-in tracker that just tells you whether you're doing good damage or not, e.g. it has 5 indicators that tell you how good your current dps is: low dps, low-mid dps, mid-dps, mid-high dps, high-dps. (I know this would come with lots of implementation "baggage", but I don't want to do a deep dive, it's just an idea) And to those of you who are of the belief that trackers are unnecessary, I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that time and time again it has been shown that you cannot get rid of them, FFXIV is probably the most prominent example of that. I think the only way to circumvent that is to approach this by offering players a compromise. That said, I think the tracker should absolutely not show any kind of incoming damage and other types of statistics, e.g. number of interrupts, otherwise it really is, as others have stated, a kind of cheat that makes encounters too easy. DPS meters are useless. I need to know whether my buffs are working, not whether my "damage rotations are perfect". Any pure "DPS meter" is useless, and no-one should bother making it. That's the "compromise" I'd offer the "toxicity" crowd. Don't include a DPS stat.
Mag7spy wrote: » Rage mechanics are boring those are old age to add difficulty, the fight should be difficult from start to finish and allow people to take as much time as they need in their approach unless they wipe.
Mag7spy wrote: » Yes knowing if a class is broken is important, devs can take care if something is op and they will 100% of their own trackers to use top help gauge things, a player doesn't need that.
Mag7spy wrote: » This game doesn't support add on and i do not want all add ons and that is where things lead to and people start pulling out combat assistance and you are fight half human half bot.
MaiWaifu wrote: » Just out of curiosity, do you guys use DPS meters in all games? If you're not using meters and stats in single player games and only using them in online team games. You have to admit that the biggest reason is to inflate e-Peen and not really to just min-max and improve yourself; and I don't just mean picking items with higher stats.
MaiWaifu wrote: » I think the vast majority of people play solo games without meters because their focus is on entertainment instead of spreadsheeting. I don't see anyone making a DPS meter for Skyrim to figure out the perfect rotation for shout, spell and weapon meta.
MaiWaifu wrote: » Guildwars 2 is an example of this, even the developers claim that certain people deal 3-5x more damage than the average player.
MaiWaifu wrote: » You could claim that they should instead rebalance the game so that it increases difficulty to a relevant level but then take a look at Path of Exile's current ongoing issues with loot and game balance for end game. They are currently trying to balance around their top end players that use external tools and this is causing issues for everyone else. Some content is literally impossible without a guide or extensive theorycrafting outside of the game beforehand.
MaiWaifu wrote: » A top end player can finish all 10 Acts within a day with barely any difficulty. The average player can take 3 days to finish and even then, they will still not be ready for endgame content.
MrPockets wrote: » @Noaani Do you mind humoring me for a sec? I'm hoping to better understand where you are coming from. A quick thought experiment. Let's say we have an MMO that managed to hide all their combat information to the point where trackers couldn't provide any information. Let's also assume that the game's top end is just as difficult as any other MMO we are used to. Could you see yourself having fun in that game?
Fiia wrote: » I was assuming people mainly meant damange/healing/aggro meters. I don't view buff/debuff/CC trackers as part of a "tracker". Tracking buff/debuffs/CCs are normally built-in into any game UI anyway (WoW, FFXIV, ...), to some extent at least. I just need a good customizable UI. Everything else can be handled by communication, it's really a trivial issue, I don't need any trackers for that.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Yes knowing if a class is broken is important, devs can take care if something is op and they will 100% of their own trackers to use top help gauge things, a player doesn't need that. I'm confused. Are you suggesting that games never have bugs, because developers always find them before they get to players? I ask, because if that is not what you are suggesting, then the comment I quoted above makes no sense. Either the game can have bugs and players find them, report them and then the developers attempt to replicate, analyze and fix them, or games simply do not ship with bugs. Which is it you are saying?
