Why Have Two Different PvP Systems for Land and Sea?

Before I begin, I just want to say, I don’t have a problem with no holds barred PvP on the open ocean. I enjoy games that have that quite a bit. I guess my only question is: Why the change? If the Corruption System was developed to disincentivize killing of low level players and people who are just gathering for professions on land, why not use that same system on the sea? Is there a particular reason this change was made? Again, I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just curious.

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Dygz

Steven said that the Open Seas have unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities and... with greater rewards comes greater risk.

But, for PvPers, it's reduced risk:
It's half the normal death penalties, inlcuding half normal dropped mats/resources.
And no risk of gaining Corruption.
Increased chance of PvP combat is a boon for PvPers; not a bane, so...
It's not really a risk v reward thing.

It's really just: with greater rewards comes more PvP combat.

Bullvinne

Well I am sure if you are out in the "Open Seas" where its flagged pvp, you are probably not a low level player, I am not sure how soon players can get into boats on the ocean, but I am sure the low level players would be in smaller fishing vessels, etc near land, and more organized, larger player groups would man ocean-fairing vessels.

Also, not all of the ocean is open pvp, near the coastlines you will still have non-combatant/combatant/corrupted system so you can sail up and down coastlines with that protection if you want.

I just think they are going for an "International waters" type scenario where anything goes once you get too far out from land.

Dygz

International waters answers why there's no Corruption, I suppose, but...
What does international waters have to do with why it's half normal death penalties there??

CROW3

Bullvinne wrote: »

I just think they are going for an "International waters" type scenario where anything goes once you get too far out from land.

Are unsettled land nodes subject to ‘international law’?

NaughtyBrute

There were 2 other threads about this that got merged at some point. There were multiple topics discussed within those threads and I'll try to summarize the most relevant ones from my point of view:

1) Is this a good or a bad change?
Summary: Discussion is a waste of time, since people have different preferences. It's like asking 'what's your favorite color?' and then arguing about the answers.

2) What was the reason for the change?
Summary: In the stream, the reason given was that the rewards in the open sea will be greater so the risk will need to be higher. Does this make sense since the corruption system was presented as adding risk to the attackers? That's for you to decide. (It didn't for me and that's why I started one of the threads).
There were some other proposed reasons, e.g. difficulty of implementation, but they are all just assumptions.

3) How corruption can be implemented for naval combat.
Summary: This was interesting but cannot summarize.. You'll need to read it yourself

BaSkA_9x2

In my opinion, all the reasons given by the community and by Intrepid for "why the change?" so far have been either flawed, contradict other previous statements, fail to explain why they chose the open sea instead of other zones and, last but not least, lead to important questions such as: Does the corruption system work? Is the removal of corruption from the open sea a compromise to PvP players? What type of other compromises can we expect now?

Without saying I agree or disagree with the change, I don't think that the real reason(s) why Intrepid removed corruption from the open sea will be disclosed because it's not going to be good PR. I think that they could be "feeling the community out" with this change to see how far can they go. I believe that Steven is a fan of FFA PvP Naval content (from ArcheAge), but he never publicly said that, so now some people are rightly feeling "confused" or "betrayed" by this change. Steven said that the decision to remove corruption from the open sea was made "several months" ago so I also think that this is only the first one to be announced, there are more corruptionless zones already decided, just not yet announced.

Is this design change good or bad for the game? I don't know, and I don't believe anyone who says they do.

Asgerr

Because the requirements for participating in PvP on land and sea are quite different, not to add that in the open sea (international waters, outside the portion of water controlled by Nodes) there won't be Nodes. So there is no governing body to impose sanctions.

Also, for naval combat, up until now, a single player on your ship killing a green, would flag everyone on the ship as Red. With this, a player could troll you very hard.

Imagine this scenario:
You're on a ship crossing to the other continent. Suddenly someone fires a cannon and kills a random dingy. You are all now corrupted as you count as the ship's crew.

All of sudden a pirate ship appears and begins to fight you. They don't flag as combattant, so you killing them further dampens your combat stats, and when they inevitably kill you, you all drop a portion of your gear.

Turns out, that one player who got you all corrupted? He was in cahoots with the pirates. He made you all corrupt so that you would be easier to kill and dorp porper loot.

Now, in the updated scenario, no one can troll you that way, and should you fight back against anyone and die, then you get normal death penalties be they purple (as normal) or red (the current updated model).

Dygz

Sanctions would be Corruption which -especially because it's a form of Karma- really seems to be a curse of the gods, rather than sanctions from governments.
Again, international waters might answer why there is no Corruption -if Corruption is a government sanction- but does not answer why there would be half normal death penalties in the Open Seas.

Veeshan

Dygz wrote: »

Steven said that the Open Seas have unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities and... with greater rewards comes greater risk.

But, for PvPers, it's reduced risk:
It's half the normal death penalties, inlcuding half normal dropped mats/resources.
And no risk of gaining Corruption.
Increased chance of PvP combat is a boon for PvPers; not a bane, so...
It's not really a risk v reward thing.

It's really just: with greater rewards comes more PvP combat.

The risk for pvpers in the ocean is actually time tbh more than anything. The ocean are not realy know form being popping with content even in archage u could be sailing around for an hour before you manage to get 1-2 minutes worth of content.
Land generaly offers more content close together the ocean is rather vast and u can be out there for long time for little gameplay experience.

Mag7spy

Iandriel wrote: »

Before I begin, I just want to say, I don’t have a problem with no holds barred PvP on the open ocean. I enjoy games that have that quite a bit. I guess my only question is: Why the change? If the Corruption System was developed to disincentivize killing of low level players and people who are just gathering for professions on land, why not use that same system on the sea? Is there a particular reason this change was made? Again, I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just curious.

Why can you not see a game having more types of content?

The open sea shouldn't be expected for low level players, stopping node progressing, stopping player progression (as they have the whole land to do it), Respawn areas much much further away, etc.

Dygz

Veeshan wrote: »

The risk for pvpers in the ocean is actually time tbh more than anything. The ocean are not realy know form being popping with content even in archage u could be sailing around for an hour before you manage to get 1-2 minutes worth of content.
Land generaly offers more content close together the ocean is rather vast and u can be out there for long time for little gameplay experience.

I mean... that's an interesting assumption...
But, time is not a risk.

daveywavey

Iandriel wrote: »

Before I begin, I just want to say, I don’t have a problem with no holds barred PvP on the open ocean. I enjoy games that have that quite a bit. I guess my only question is: Why the change? If the Corruption System was developed to disincentivize killing of low level players and people who are just gathering for professions on land, why not use that same system on the sea? Is there a particular reason this change was made? Again, I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just curious.

It's simply to pander to the pirate-wannabees.

BaSkA_9x2

Veeshan wrote: »

The ocean are not realy know form being popping with content even in archage u could be sailing around for an hour before you manage to get 1-2 minutes worth of content.
Land generaly offers more content close together the ocean is rather vast and u can be out there for long time for little gameplay experience.

Sorry but comparing Ashes to any other game has a 50% chance of being accurate and a 50% chance of being completely off. Even if ArcheAge is a "inspiration", it's a flawed game and Steven himself used to diss that game constantly and say how many bad design choices it had.

I hope that, despite what they are "known for", the ocean is popping with PvE content because, like on land, that's what brings conflict and fun (PvP).

mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

Steven said that the Open Seas have unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities and... with greater rewards comes greater risk.

But, for PvPers, it's reduced risk:
It's half the normal death penalties, inlcuding half normal dropped mats/resources.
And no risk of gaining Corruption.
Increased chance of PvP combat is a boon for PvPers; not a bane, so...
It's not really a risk v reward thing.

It's really just: with greater rewards comes more PvP combat.

The rewards come from content in the ocean.
The increased chance of pvp makes doing that content harder.
Just because pvpers enjoy pvp doesn't mean the content is any less challenging because of its presence.

Galvyr

Dygz wrote: »

Sanctions would be Corruption which -especially because it's a form of Karma- really seems to be a curse of the gods, rather than sanctions from governments.
Again, international waters might answer why there is no Corruption -if Corruption is a government sanction- but does not answer why there would be half normal death penalties in the Open Seas.

So from a lore perspective, there should be Corruption from Naval Combat?

Dygz

Increased challenge is not the same thing as increased risk.
You seem to be trying to say something like: with greater rewards comes increased competition.
Which is not what Steven said.

Mag7spy

Corruption is way more punishment than risk lol.

you can argue people wouldn't want to deal with the punishment and there would be far less flagging so simply mass rewards and little fighting over them.

Veeshan

CROW3 wrote: »

Bullvinne wrote: »

I just think they are going for an "International waters" type scenario where anything goes once you get too far out from land.

Are unsettled land nodes subject to ‘international law’?

well you have that rather somewhat lawless zone in america called slab city

Veeshan

Dygz wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

The risk for pvpers in the ocean is actually time tbh more than anything. The ocean are not realy know form being popping with content even in archage u could be sailing around for an hour before you manage to get 1-2 minutes worth of content.
Land generaly offers more content close together the ocean is rather vast and u can be out there for long time for little gameplay experience.

I mean... that's an interesting assumption...
But, time is not a risk.

Time is always a risk there nothing more valuable than time. if somone offers you a job for $10 and hour its not worth your time, farming mobs for gold is always calculated as gold per hour in games for a reason, Xp gain per hour everything comes back to time.
Commit a crime in real life your risk is loosing years of your life in a cell aka your loosing your time.

Time is what makes the world go round if anything its the most valuable currency in the world when it comes down to it, No one want to waste their time and thats one reason why the world having a unemployment issue atm cause people decided there time is worth more than what those jobs wish to pay them for it.

Galvyr

Veeshan wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

The risk for pvpers in the ocean is actually time tbh more than anything. The ocean are not realy know form being popping with content even in archage u could be sailing around for an hour before you manage to get 1-2 minutes worth of content.
Land generaly offers more content close together the ocean is rather vast and u can be out there for long time for little gameplay experience.

I mean... that's an interesting assumption...
But, time is not a risk.

Time is always a risk there nothing more valuable than time. if somone offers you a job for $10 and hour its not worth your time, farming mobs for gold is always calculated as gold per hour in games for a reason, Xp gain per hour everything comes back to time.

Time is what makes the world go round if anything its the most valuable currency in the world when it comes down to it.

I definitely think time combined with the chance of me losing a lot of my loot upon death, maybe even my presumably expensive ship, would deter me from venturing out there without significant insurance and if there’s not consequences like corruption; I feel like everyone will just be killing everyone else all the time, because of the added incentive that isn’t in other games. If there isn’t corruption out there, there should at the very least be a bounty system.

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