Mag7spy wrote: » 1. You imagine a fight being easier because you can't think of ways to add difficulty besides a time limit. This is 2022, not a 2002 mmorpg
Mag7spy wrote: » 2. We have already gone over this, clearly trackers aren't as effective depending on the game and the systems Between trackers not being supported by the developers and action combat trackers will be far less effective.. ..Which will cause people to not care about trackers and make them mostly obsolete except for some try hards needing to desperately hold onto it because they lack actual skill.
Aerlana wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » 1. You imagine a fight being easier because you can't think of ways to add difficulty besides a time limit. This is 2022, not a 2002 mmorpg There are lot of ways to add difficulty... but if you have no time limit, it will always be easier and far more open to all than with a time limit. You can add 20kg backpack, i could do it in 10 hours, allowing to do 15 minutes walk, 45 minutes rest. easy. add more and more difficulty, hard mechanics, that hit hard ? no problem with a team full of tanks and healers it won't be a problem, if the fight was thought for 1hours but i kill it in 10h, i still win. But if you are sure i mistake, show me example to add difficulty that can replace adding some kind of DPS check ? (and i say replace, it means that adding time limit would be useless to make the fight harder) I still know no mechanic in anygame that make a time limit useless to make fight harder Aaaaand don't speak about limited mana for healers... This is... a form of enrage. A soft enrage to be exact. You have to kill boss before healers run out of mana. the most basic form of enrage Mag7spy wrote: » 2. We have already gone over this, clearly trackers aren't as effective depending on the game and the systems Between trackers not being supported by the developers and action combat trackers will be far less effective.. ..Which will cause people to not care about trackers and make them mostly obsolete except for some try hards needing to desperately hold onto it because they lack actual skill. Will ? why do you use future while there are already tracker on action gameplay MMORPG ? What limit tracker efficiency is how they can gather information. You want tracker impossible to use ? Remove combat log (there will be one) remove numbers near character when they hit/get hit (there will be) remove displayed life bar and hide any kind of proof when a button for a skill is used. . .
Amaa wrote: » if the fight for 10 hours is a difficulty for you, you have no idea what you are writing about, no offense for u If PvE is to be demanding, which is a very good example of WoW raids Mythic, everyone must know the tactics perfectly and play to the full or close full potential of their class & gear, very often there are people who play poorly, their task is to learn to play correctly, and the raid group must have preview if people are playing well or if they press any keys and do their tactic job, but weak dps or heal etc - and this is incorrect.
Noaani wrote: » So, a question for you. If someone does something for a living that you do not do, and they make a comment specifically in relation to the thing they do for a living that you do not do, would you believe what it is they are saying? For example, if a plumber came to your house and fixed a leak, and said that you needed a new fixture or some such, would you believe what they are telling you?
Noaani wrote: » Noaani wrote: » So, a question for you. If someone does something for a living that you do not do, and they make a comment specifically in relation to the thing they do for a living that you do not do, would you believe what it is they are saying? For example, if a plumber came to your house and fixed a leak, and said that you needed a new fixture or some such, would you believe what they are telling you? @Mag7spy Please answer the question.
Mag7spy wrote: » unless they do something that you feel is wrong.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » unless they do something that you feel is wrong. So, in other words, listen to a professional unless you disagree with them. So, fun fact, Margret has said that the job of CS is far easier when players have access to objective data. We are able to state what issues we see (or think we see) much better, in a way that allows CS to more easily and quickly understand and reproduce. It saves them time and money, and allows them to get to more bug reports more quickly. Based on this, would you then concede that trackers are a useful tool for bug finding, or are you just going to disagree with someone that actually knows what they are talking about, on a matter where you do not?
Mag7spy wrote: » You can find bugs without trackers
MaiWaifu wrote: » The only question I'd raise; would you like AoC to have a similar complexity level to PoE and if it does not, do you think it justifies not having a DPS meter?
MaiWaifu wrote: » I mean, based on current gameplay it doesn't look like it'll be harder than Drakengard 3...
MaiWaifu wrote: » Perhaps a compromise could be that only for specific encounters (world bosses/raids) a DPS meter is available to turn on for coordinating rather than for open world.
MaiWaifu wrote: » Alternatively, do you believe these kinds of trackers and stats should be available in game aswell?
MaiWaifu wrote: » Based on current gameplay, it doesn't look like there are even AoE indicators to dodge in AoC (GW2 / FF14 have these).
MaiWaifu wrote: » In a game so focussed on conflict between players, I can understand why IS might want to obscure some information and force the player to learn timings and range of skills themselves rather than use a tool to calculate for them in the heat of the moment.
Mag7spy wrote: » If you are fighting a boss for 10 hours straight that sounds like a pretty hard boss and you would have to be pretty skilled to be fighting it without the boss hp resetting. By default the boss / adds/ players missing attacks on you won't be read with action based attacks so there is going to be a gap in information. Also The dev taking action against people they find using trackers is also important. When people start getting hard banned they will think twice from the progress they lose.
Mag7spy wrote: » You can find bugs without trackers,
Aerlana wrote: » Those test to be as accurate as possible would need factual datas.
Aerlana wrote: » This is not a "combat tracker" but battle assistant. and THIS is a thing that should be avoided. The combat tracker : it gather informations, and display it, as you could display it after putting all them on a spreadsheet. It is just the exact same work, but in a infinitely faster way as if you had to do it yourself
Aerlana wrote: » Here the guy has visual information that helps him to take decision directly in the fight.
Aerlana wrote: » Game needs to gives some hint, not only to discover strategy, but applying it. A thing i HATE on FFXIV (but a friend, really good player) love : the fact that all the fight is scripted, like a music sheet. I prefer things like LA, where bosses have many skills and use them randomly. On FFXIV, knowing the music sheet is the "call" the game do. (added to visual aoe but for endgame, the real deal is this sheet) while in LA, recognize the visual movement is mandatory. 2 different thing that are needed.
Aerlana wrote: » To be clear : Tracker is a tool to do measures. it gives informations you can have without it, but... far faster to have it this way. and it remain just information... if you don't know what to do with... it is still useless Assistant (like in video) are the software that does part of the work for you. Using it too much make you dependant of it. but also remove part of the learning process. 2 totally different thing, 2 totally different subject.
Aerlana wrote: » With tracker you can do a bug report with far more informations. The more informations you give to dev, the easier for them to find what is the problem. And so the also needs less time to figure it out (less time on bug, more time on development)
Aerlana wrote: » QA team are nothing more than players that are PAID to find bugs... Also, they are not the average players enjoying the game, and laughing when they see this strange bug making the horse able to travel vertically, or discovering their sims can go incest. but their work is nothing more than... playing and doing lot of silly test to try to spot some bugs.
Aerlana wrote: » MaiWaifu wrote: » The only question I'd raise; would you like AoC to have a similar complexity level to PoE and if it does not, do you think it justifies not having a DPS meter? It doesn't need it, and it don't seem to take this path. POE you can virtually do anything you want (still, a build around archery with witch is not so efficient due to starting point ^^') On AoC, your primary archetype will already define a lot your character. What i hope is to have 2+ build avaible per secundary archetype in average. (by avaible i mean strongly efficient) MaiWaifu wrote: » I mean, based on current gameplay it doesn't look like it'll be harder than Drakengard 3... Drakengard 3 bosses have nearly no strategies, (so goes for other Yoko Taro's game) We currently don't have realy idea of what bosses will be in AoC. the dragons we had in Alpha 1 were not a real difficulty, but could easily wipe raids without a basic structure (having tanks/healer defined, etc) I think there will be high end fight, because it was said they wanted some of PvE content to be done by a "single digit percent" but there are various way to have this in fact MaiWaifu wrote: » Perhaps a compromise could be that only for specific encounters (world bosses/raids) a DPS meter is available to turn on for coordinating rather than for open world. The first use of tracker is to test and makes various build. Lets look at pathfinder : there are tons of absurdly strong builds avaible. but we have still to find them out. After thinking "oh, this class, and this one, and this feat and..;" is not enough, after you have to look at some statistics. Mainly your AC, AB, damages outside of the weapon itself, etc. We will have the same base situation : we have lot of way to do (augment from secundary archetype but also race, and other source... AND the free choice around weapon and thise skill point spent in weapons. and also armor) But even if we have all informations about how the game works, and how the statistics impact character (how many of this to have 1% crit, attack speed or what else) which is what i really hope, due to the real time, there are still some test to do, and measure them... Sometime ideas are good, but makes gameplay too complicated (really short timeframe to refresh buff, complexe rotation, etc) for a minor DPS increase (and a complicated gameplay of a build on hard fight with mechanics to deal with is not always good idea. ) Those test to be as accurate as possible would need factual datas. We end up at one of my posts with Build A : 100 DPS, easy to play, easy to find Build B : 120 DPS, but hard to figure out and far harder to play. Both build are good, and top players would prefer B, but casuals would be less efficient (because it needs far more training so game time dedicated to master it) and would be at 80-90 DPS so better go A Also, there is impact of statistics, 1) you could need X attack speed to swap to this other build, but Y attack speed to have, gameplay wise, a real benefits 2) While X critical chance are enough, for the theoric damages (which are an average so) but too random to be reliable and need far more. Both case can be feeled a lot thru maths but really need real tests. (not even dummys, but on medium tier bosses) to have a better idea. For those we should need to be able to do tests and measures outside of "some few bosses" but on most bosses. Also with the guild perk idea : you will have to be in one of guilds using a tracker to have it, and limited to your guildmate. Adding another restriction above those is, i think not needed. MaiWaifu wrote: » Alternatively, do you believe these kinds of trackers and stats should be available in game aswell? This is not a "combat tracker" but battle assistant. and THIS is a thing that should be avoided. The combat tracker : it gather informations, and display it, as you could display it after putting all them on a spreadsheet. It is just the exact same work, but in a infinitely faster way as if you had to do it yourself And due to being numbers on numbers around numbers, and graphics, watching it during fight is more a handicap than a help (you lose focus on informations in fight) Here the guy has visual information that helps him to take decision directly in the fight. If you played wow, you also learned about boss mods, or weakaura. this video is more to thing like this, where the addon gives information that players know exist, but couldn't have it so fast directly in fight... reducing the need of focus you need yourself. it is literally a battle assistant. And i have a big critic about combat tracker : as guides, it makes people bad. You obey your guides and don't understand all, or don't know why this is this build and not another that works. You follow information of your battle assistant, and you are so unable to really learn the fight, but also how the game works. MaiWaifu wrote: » Based on current gameplay, it doesn't look like there are even AoE indicators to dodge in AoC (GW2 / FF14 have these). WoW have some now, but in fact... it was always a thing. a good example in my mind right now would be Aran in Karazhan, at regular timing one after other, he use randomly some skills, one was the fire circle, if anyone go out, all take huge damage. avoid it. only few were targetted. but the game gave the information that it is coming (and being one mechanic at time, no problem to have all people stopping to move for few seconds). Because for each of its skill, Aran had a specific sentence. The fun include to have enough information to understand, but also react. Maybe FFXIV gives too many hints ? I dislike it in FFXIV but i never manage to tell if, out of my own subjectivity, it was too much or not. For GW2 most of time those kind of information in fight meant to be a little hard (fractals, raid, now hard mode strikes) never felt "too much" Game needs to gives some hint, not only to discover strategy, but applying it. A thing i HATE on FFXIV (but a friend, really good player) love : the fact that all the fight is scripted, like a music sheet. I prefer things like LA, where bosses have many skills and use them randomly. On FFXIV, knowing the music sheet is the "call" the game do. (added to visual aoe but for endgame, the real deal is this sheet) while in LA, recognize the visual movement is mandatory. 2 different thing that are needed. MaiWaifu wrote: » In a game so focussed on conflict between players, I can understand why IS might want to obscure some information and force the player to learn timings and range of skills themselves rather than use a tool to calculate for them in the heat of the moment. what i will say work in video games and outside : you are always better when you don't have visual support, or assistant to learn your work. Many people in their work are unable to do it if their software is down, but can't even see when the information their sofware is showing are true or not, because they rely totally on it, and forgot (or badly learned) the bare hand method. To be clear : Tracker is a tool to do measures. it gives informations you can have without it, but... far faster to have it this way. and it remain just information... if you don't know what to do with... it is still useless Assistant (like in video) are the software that does part of the work for you. Using it too much make you dependant of it. but also remove part of the learning process. 2 totally different thing, 2 totally different subject. Mag7spy wrote: » If you are fighting a boss for 10 hours straight that sounds like a pretty hard boss and you would have to be pretty skilled to be fighting it without the boss hp resetting. By default the boss / adds/ players missing attacks on you won't be read with action based attacks so there is going to be a gap in information. Also The dev taking action against people they find using trackers is also important. When people start getting hard banned they will think twice from the progress they lose. boss resetting HP : moving the boss outside of its dedicated area... There is nothing hard about it except if this is where the strategy and difficulty is specifically. but it is a kind of fight amongst lot. If this is what you think difficult... i am asking a lot about your skill In full action like BNS, sure... but in such game, the mitigations are not a thing, and the tank is ... anything that can keep the ennemy animosity high... so any DPS can do it. Because then you have to avoid. The path AoC seems to get for the tanking is the traditionnal one. a tank, keep hate on him, use CD to not insta-die, while healers replenish his health bar. Also... just look at BDO, there are still accuracy / avoid statistics skills have many hits, and some can miss. this is part of mitigation. And, boss using skills is part of combat log... so if combat log, tracker will get the information as i said. About devs banning people : you never said how they would know who use it. . . Aside their .exe watch what you are doing out of the game on your computer (which would be a big problem about privacy) Mag7spy wrote: » You can find bugs without trackers, You can fix a leak without the need of a plumber. it would be done poorly, with far more time spent, but still work. With tracker you can do a bug report with far more informations. The more informations you give to dev, the easier for them to find what is the problem. And so the also needs less time to figure it out (less time on bug, more time on development) QA team are nothing more than players that are PAID to find bugs... Also, they are not the average players enjoying the game, and laughing when they see this strange bug making the horse able to travel vertically, or discovering their sims can go incest. but their work is nothing more than... playing and doing lot of silly test to try to spot some bugs. Then when they find the bug, they try to do it again, and again, if they can reproduce it, then, they try in different situation, etc etc... to finally, send them to devs... Because QA are paid for it, their work is not just "found this bug" but gives lot of information (how, when, what setup, etc). But i don't see a problem players spending their free time to do it for free... the result is same, and in both situation, the dev spend less time trying to reproduce it and understand it, faster to fix bug, and faster to go back on development topic.
Mag7spy wrote: » Glad to say people supporting trackers will do anything to waste time just to post on this thread.
Mag7spy wrote: » Don't put words in my mouth on what i think is difficult
Mag7spy wrote: » Ya its the same people that just respond so I'm just going in cause their arguments are actually stupid for trackers. The more they talk the more inconsistencies will show up like them being for gameplay around trackers now, and their view on what is toxic is not the same as others so they can ignore or say those things they have "never seen". I just have to deal with some bs tactics they use and manipulation.
