Feedback: We love the open sea PvP change - now, what about open PvP zones for World Bosses?

High risk, high reward, the open sea change was one of the best possible changes Intrepid made, now, we know that on the open seas we will have unique NPCs and rewards, but the best gear and materials that are legendary tier only drop from legendary world bosses,

because of that, I would love to see the area around the legendary world bosses being open pvp zones as well, so people can't abuse the corruption system and rely on that to try to do the legendary world bosses without the risk of being killed by other Guilds

the corruption system is amazing but it should be used only for it's intended purpose: deter ganking and PKing in the open world where there is nothing to gain, I feel like Legendary World bosses fall under the same ruleset as the open seas, and because of that I would love to see this change.

I feel like similar to the open seas, this would help to protect the PvErs in the game, by alleviating the need for gankers to PK random people, since now they have the oceans and they would also have the open world bosses areas to PK, and this would make the content even more challenging, and reducing the number of people that have access to Legendary gear, making it actually Legendary and not the "endgame" set that every guild can obtain.

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Morg7x7

hleV wrote: »

No, the danger should come from both PvE and PvP. PvX game, remember? You can't just push the PvP part away whenever you feel like it.

Yes you can, its called corruption, remember?

Liniker

Morg7x7 wrote: »

How is anybody going to down a world boss when the healers cant stay alive for more than 2 seconds? It'll be a tit-for-tat gankfest that benefits nobody except griefers.

The danger should come from the boss itself and the challenge should come from winning the dps race against other partys.

you can always "get good" and learn how to protect your healers... spawn locations will not be near the boss so people won't be dying and coming back - also, there are death penalties that are severe, even tho there is no corruption system, so it will not be a gank fest, it's an objective-based event

and this will already happen in the open seas, there are world bosses in the open sea and there is no corruption

hleV

Morg7x7 wrote: »

Yes you can, its called corruption, remember?

And as we know, not everything in AoC is behind corruption wall.

Mag7spy

I don't think that kind of change is needed nor should it be the focus of on land pvp. Node and guild wars should be enough to have more focused pvp for those kinds of boss than simply having a free for all. People need to take that into consideration as well for the type of pvp it created in the game leaning towards social rather than chaotic.

Dygz

Biccus wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Open Seas are high PvP - not high risk.
Open Seas are reduced risk in order to encourage a higher occurrence of PvP.

Would you not having the protection of the corruption system increase your risk of getting killed and losing your gatherables and ship?

It increases engaging in PvP. It does not necessarily increase the risk of me dying from PvP combat or losing my ship.
It certainly reduces the risk of losing gatherables by half.

Dygz

Liniker wrote: »

Sorry @Dygz .. but Steven is the one making the game, and he says it's high risk, plus, I think he knows the game he is making better and has more experience in game design than you, so you can stop saying that in every single post you can find because you are wrong.

LMAO Steven saying it's high risk does not make it high risk. That is just hype.
Steven saying it's auto-flag Combatant makes it auto-flag Combatant.

Liniker wrote: »

It is high risk and theres nothing to say about it. Open PvP with no corruption means higher PVP occurrence which translates to higher chances of dying which translates to More Risk due to the death penalties being. Even if your (not confirmed) scenario with 50% of the penalties is real, the risk is still higher.

Again, no.
Higher occurence of engaging in PvP does not inherently increase the chance of dying from PvP combat.
It does reduce the death penalties by at least half. No Corruption means there is no risk of 4x death penalties and no risk of dropping gear.
We also still need to see what effect auto-flagging means for player characters that are Corrupt.

Liniker wrote: »

Now, can you find me a quote where it says we will take Reduced penalties on the open sea?

you can't, because that's just your assumption. Steven only said we would be flagged for PvP, and that does not mean everyone will be combatant or purple, we were also flagged for PvP during castle sieges in A1 and that had nothing to do with the green-purple-red flagging system, the rule set can be different, we don't know. Even with you creating scenarios and assumptions to validate your dislike for the change, you are still incorrect.

It did. For Sieges and Caravans, death penalties are turned off. So... in that case, it's even less risk than half death penalties.
That's what incentizes people to engage in PvP combat. Steven said that there is no Corruption in the Open Seas because it's international water. Which implies there's no one there to punish murderers with Corruption.
What Steven means is that the Open Waters are more dangerous in terms of higher chance to engage in PvP combat. But, the death penalties are reduced, so that's reduced risk.

Strevi

Morg7x7 wrote: »

How is anybody going to down a world boss when the healers cant stay alive for more than 2 seconds? It'll be a tit-for-tat gankfest that benefits nobody except griefers.

The danger should come from the boss itself and the challenge should come from winning the dps race against other partys.

I had to look a bit on wiki and I am still not sure

First I see no mention of PvP and the corruption system related to World bosses.
This page has only a "PvE difficulty" section https://ashesofcreation.wiki/World_bosses
So I assumed that there is only PVE allowed.
I also see

Raids contain intricate combat mechanics

On the dedicated PvP page https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP
I see "Hunting grounds" as a possible place to PvP

There are many reasons to engage in open world PvP in Ashes of Creation.[7]
    Scarce resources.[7]
    Hunting grounds.[7]
    Caravans.[7]
    Sieges.[7]
    Guild wars.[7]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Hunting_grounds

    Hunting grounds refer to killing monsters or NPCs in the open-world.[2][3]
    This also refers to contesting resources.[4]

While NPCs theoretically includes the world boss too, I feel that bosses are mentioned explicitly when needed.

Raids are mentioned only on the PvE page: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvE

The Node system facilitates the generation of new PvE content such as Quests, Dungeons, Raids and Monster coins.

Going further into the Raid page I see nothing about PvP, I see
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raids

A single digit percentage of the population will be capable of defeating certain content.[9]

Can it be that PvE players are actually safe from being attacked by other players?
If not, then as @Morg7x7 said, chances are 0% to defeat them.

What happens if I cast a spell toward the boss and a player from another team gets in-between?
I get flagged? And the other team can kill me?

I have the strange feeling that
- either everybody knows Raids to allow PvP and the wiki is not complete
- or everybody assumes Raids to allow PvP while it was never the case

Dygz

ClintHardwood wrote: »

The real fun comes in once you get over your 'gear fear', or in AoC's case, resource fear. Die. Lose your stuff. Murder other people. Take their stuff. Get better at the game. Now that's a gameplay loop.

Yep. That's an awesome gameplay loop for people who love to do that.
I don't play RPGs to murder people and take their stuff - I play RPGs to experience similar stories as what I read in heroic fantasy novels. While some killing is common, murdering and stealing people's stuff typically is not a thing in those stories.
So, murdering people and stealing their stuff is not fun to me.

But, it is fun for lots of gamers.
And it's cool to have games that cater to those gamers.
Looks like Ashes will join that list. Which is great... if it gain sustain enough of a population to keep the servers going.
Which seems likely since EvE is popular enough.

Strevi

Dygz wrote: »

ClintHardwood wrote: »

The real fun comes in once you get over your 'gear fear', or in AoC's case, resource fear. Die. Lose your stuff. Murder other people. Take their stuff. Get better at the game. Now that's a gameplay loop.

Yep. That's an awesome gameplay loop for people who love to do that.
I don't play RPGs to murder people and take their stuff - I play RPGs to experience similar stories as what I read of heroic fantasy novels. While some killing is common, murdering and stealing people's stuff typically is not a thing in those stories.
So, murdering people and stealing their stuff is not fun to me.

But, it is fun for lots of gamers.
And it's cool to have games that cater to those gamers.
Looks like Ashes will join that list.

On one of the links I posted above is written

Ashes of Creation is a PvX game. Players will naturally encounter both PvP and PvE elements.[20][21][22] It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[22]

The quote sends back to 2017.

Ludullu

I'd personally prefer the push for guild/node wars rather than just a ffa around bosses. There's a boss in your node but some randoes from another node constantly farm it? Declare a war on their node. There's a bodd your guild is trying to contest against another guild? War!

Wars keep the ffa nature of pvp around a boss w/o including literally the whole server in the action (though they kinda do cause you'd be flagged, but still). This would obviously require the guild wars to be forced (so that the target of the declaration can't just deny it) and the cost for the war would have to be appropriate. But if the boss is worth it - you pay the higher price to dec the contesting guild.

Dolyem

Nah, I say leave the corruption system on for the land content. There will be raids at sea where yo ucan get this mechanic in.

NiKr wrote: »

I'd personally prefer the push for guild/node wars rather than just a ffa around bosses. There's a boss in your node but some randoes from another node constantly farm it? Declare a war on their node. There's a bodd your guild is trying to contest against another guild? War!

Wars keep the ffa nature of pvp around a boss w/o including literally the whole server in the action (though they kinda do cause you'd be flagged, but still). This would obviously require the guild wars to be forced (so that the target of the declaration can't just deny it) and the cost for the war would have to be appropriate. But if the boss is worth it - you pay the higher price to dec the contesting guild.

I agree, guild/node wars will be ideal for this. I mentioned in another post to maybe add a sort of "home-team" advantage that slightly buffs node citizens against raids in their node. Giving them an edge over outside groups. Only reason I even consider this is so there arent as many instances of mega guilds rotating raids around the world in zones that arent theirs just decimating smaller guilds.

Morg7x7

Strevi wrote: »

What happens if I cast a spell toward the boss and a player from another team gets in-between?
I get flagged? And the other team can kill me?

You cant accidentally hit other players you have to specifically target them.

Strevi wrote: »

I have the strange feeling that
- either everybody knows Raids to allow PvP and the wiki is not complete
- or everybody assumes Raids to allow PvP while it was never the case

I think it's just assumed that you can PvP anywhere in the open world that's how I've always looked at it.

Strevi wrote: »

Can it be that PvE players are actually safe from being attacked by other players?
If not, then as @Morg7x7 said, chances are 0% to defeat them.

Currently players are semi protected by the corruption mechanic, this thread is a discussion about removing that mechanic.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

I'd personally prefer the push for guild/node wars rather than just a ffa around bosses. There's a boss in your node but some randoes from another node constantly farm it? Declare a war on their node. There's a bodd your guild is trying to contest against another guild? War!

Wars keep the ffa nature of pvp around a boss w/o including literally the whole server in the action (though they kinda do cause you'd be flagged, but still). This would obviously require the guild wars to be forced (so that the target of the declaration can't just deny it) and the cost for the war would have to be appropriate. But if the boss is worth it - you pay the higher price to dec the contesting guild.

You are taking my lines >:(

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are taking my lines >:(

https://youtu.be/XbqWGo3Wrj4?t=2

Dygz

Strevi wrote: »

On one of the links I posted above is written

Ashes of Creation is a PvX game. Players will naturally encounter both PvP and PvE elements.[20][21][22] It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[22]

The quote sends back to 2017.

Yes. I am, of course, aware of that quote. And...?

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

I'd personally prefer the push for guild/node wars rather than just a ffa around bosses. There's a boss in your node but some randoes from another node constantly farm it? Declare a war on their node. There's a bodd your guild is trying to contest against another guild? War!

Wars keep the ffa nature of pvp around a boss w/o including literally the whole server in the action (though they kinda do cause you'd be flagged, but still). This would obviously require the guild wars to be forced (so that the target of the declaration can't just deny it) and the cost for the war would have to be appropriate. But if the boss is worth it - you pay the higher price to dec the contesting guild.

I'm not sure that declaring a Guild War is that simple.
"There won't be permanant wars. There will be definitive victory conditions applied to each war instance. And those will vary across the wars, depending on the level of your guild and the level of the opposing guild. And different assets those guilds may have to indicate specific objectives."
---Steven

Doesn't seem to be that you just declare a Guild War for any reason just so you can attack another Guild anywhere they are across the map whenever you feel like it.
I'm not sure what a boss being "worth it' can truly mean in that context.

Strevi

Dygz wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

On one of the links I posted above is written

Ashes of Creation is a PvX game. Players will naturally encounter both PvP and PvE elements.[20][21][22] It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.[22]

The quote sends back to 2017.

Yes. I am, of course, aware of that quote. And...?

You seem disappointed that players will not be able to focus just on PvE.
I don't understand why, if this was stated back in 2017.

CROW3

I don’t see enough benefit to the PvX goal (risk or reward) to justify another exception to the corruption flagging rules. I also think we need to test the heck out of this in A2 to calibrate the system so it’s practical in both OW encounters and OW Raids.

Mag7spy

I don't see any reason why people won't be able to declare war free and pk who they want. If there is no way to declare and the corruption system as it is, this is a pve game.

That is want some players want, it change PvX as much as pve as possible.

I don't see that happening with AoC i expect dec and node wars to be very pvp heavy, and have some more interesting concepts compared to older games.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be that you just declare a Guild War for any reason just so you can attack another Guild anywhere they are across the map whenever you feel like it.
I'm not sure what a boss being "worth it' can truly mean in that context.

We've been through this, Dygz. Steven himself said that you can kill your war enemies all you want until the war ends. If a boss gonna respawn in 5 hours and I know that a particular guild will want to farm it - I'm gonna declare a war against them and fight them at the boss.

Even if that boss respawn purely during primetime and the guild war can only be declared during primetime (I fucking hope it's not the case, but that's for a different discussion) - the guild that I'd war would have to decide between farming the boss or "winning the war", whatever form that comes in. This is what I mean by "boss being worth it". I'd sacrifice the cost of declaring the war and the cost that comes with potentially losing it, if I considered the boss drops to be valuable enough to counterweigh those losses. This would obviously be considered in the context of guild sizes, potential allies, etc etc etc.

And if both bosses and war decs can happen outside of primetime - then I'd want it to be the main source of pvp around the boss, rather than a ffa autoflag zone.

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