Feedback: We love the open sea PvP change - now, what about open PvP zones for World Bosses?

High risk, high reward, the open sea change was one of the best possible changes Intrepid made, now, we know that on the open seas we will have unique NPCs and rewards, but the best gear and materials that are legendary tier only drop from legendary world bosses,

because of that, I would love to see the area around the legendary world bosses being open pvp zones as well, so people can't abuse the corruption system and rely on that to try to do the legendary world bosses without the risk of being killed by other Guilds

the corruption system is amazing but it should be used only for it's intended purpose: deter ganking and PKing in the open world where there is nothing to gain, I feel like Legendary World bosses fall under the same ruleset as the open seas, and because of that I would love to see this change.

I feel like similar to the open seas, this would help to protect the PvErs in the game, by alleviating the need for gankers to PK random people, since now they have the oceans and they would also have the open world bosses areas to PK, and this would make the content even more challenging, and reducing the number of people that have access to Legendary gear, making it actually Legendary and not the "endgame" set that every guild can obtain.

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Strevi

Morg7x7 wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

What happens if I cast a spell toward the boss and a player from another team gets in-between?
I get flagged? And the other team can kill me?

You cant accidentally hit other players you have to specifically target them.

Strevi wrote: »

I have the strange feeling that
- either everybody knows Raids to allow PvP and the wiki is not complete
- or everybody assumes Raids to allow PvP while it was never the case

I think it's just assumed that you can PvP anywhere in the open world that's how I've always looked at it.

Strevi wrote: »

Can it be that PvE players are actually safe from being attacked by other players?
If not, then as @Morg7x7 said, chances are 0% to defeat them.

Currently players are semi protected by the corruption mechanic, this thread is a discussion about removing that mechanic.

My way of targeting is to click with the mouse onto the target. That means in a crowded place I can click on another player?
What happens if I damage that player and the boss kills him? Am I corrupted?
@NiKr I forgot to look on wiki on this one. Sorry

I'll check in 10-15 minutes.

Okeydoke

Very mixed feelings about this. You either have a corruption system that allows the average player to contest resources and make intelligent risk vs reward decisions on some kind of limited basis, or you have one that's so harsh it's effectively a pvp toggle.

You either have guild/node wars that are very restrictive/limited/easily opted out of, or you have a more free form system that heavily promotes pvp.

I don't know how these systems are going to end up yet. So I really don't have much of an opinion right now on open pvp world bosses. I can certainly see Intrepid using it, even if very limited. Or even not limited, more widespread. But mixed feelings for me on it as of right now. Need to know more about the other relevant systems.

Ludullu

Strevi wrote: »

My way of targeting is to click with the mouse onto the target. That means in a crowded place I can click on another player?
What happens if I damage that player and the boss kills him? Am I corrupted?

You can only damage the player if you use the "ctrl+f+atk" combination (just to clarify). And if you were not the one who did the killing blow - you will not get corruption.

Ludullu

Okeydoke wrote: »

Very mixed feelings about this. You either have a corruption system that allows the average player to contest resources and make intelligent risk vs reward decisions on some kind of limited basis, or you have one that's so harsh it's effectively a pvp toggle.

You either have guild/node wars that are very restrictive/limited/easily opted out of, or you have a more free form system that heavily promotes pvp.

I don't know how these systems are going to end up yet. So I really don't have much of an opinion right now on open pvp world bosses. I can certainly see Intrepid using it, even if very limited. Or even not limited, more widespread. But mixed feelings for me on it as of right now. Need to know more about the other relevant systems.

L2 had guild wars that needed both sides to accept it in order for it to become a pvp ffa for both sides. If one side didn't accept, the declaring side would still have to go red to kill them. And usually, the social pressures put onto guilds would push them to accept the declaration. And when they didn't do that, they'd get shit on by a pretty big portion of the server's playerbase. I can definitely see how people could consider that toxic, but it was just the social rule of the game that you participated in when you joined a guild that was contesting big bosses.

I'd personally like AoC's wars to be forced, but have a huge price related to that. You can freely PK your war enemies, but you might've paid a price that was more than the drop from the boss (or whatever other goal you had) netted you, so in the end you didn't really benefit from that war. To me this seems fair.

Asraiel

Liniker wrote: »

High risk, high reward, the open sea change was one of the best possible changes Intrepid made, now, we know that on the open seas we will have unique NPCs and rewards, but the best gear and materials that are legendary tier only drop from legendary world bosses,

Well i see your one that would love that ashes would be as New World during Alpha. but theres a reason wy New World did chnage from a full pvp to a partly pvp game.

Shure there are many Pvp lovers in mmo-rpg but from all players in mmo-rpg these Pvpler make only about 5-10% and you will need to craft gear since the best gear is crafted gear in ashes not like many other games where drops are mostly superior to crafting gear.

haveing a world of 1200 Km2 with about 450 km2 landmass and between 8k-10k max players you will have chances to pvp. a lot of chances to pvp. each node does open dungeons and only if every node in the game was at least once at metropole state only then you can tell what the best possible gear is. i does yet not know if every dungeon give access to the same craft mats and blueprints for the game, i belive every dungeon does bring some unique to dungeon stuff with it. and so it will take years to maximaze the perfect legendary gear on 1 server.

back to topic
for such a deep game as ashes with such a economy system the crafting, farming and pve and pvx players are important. those that does primarly pvp aint those that craft or farm stuff and spend hours in that so i dont see a reason to boost them with a additional system. the sea is a diffrent case, because you will travel by boat mostly and so an encounter is due to the size of the zone allredy rare. it would not make sense to limit the encounter there specialy on boat v boat combat. cause its will mostly be group v group combats there.

Dungeons are 80% open world get you buddys sneek in on a raid kill the looter of the boss one bud looting the dead body while the other distract the raid and the bud then makes a run in the shadows and you can later share the loot without much penaltys or coruption or so. maybe you dont get it done every time but if your skilled and well organized 1 out of 10 time you should manage to sneek some loot.

BaSkA_9x2

I'm gonna make a prediction: Intrepid will eventually remove corruption from more places, probably OW dungeons, raids and possibly world bosses, then there will be a backlash of PvE players, and since bringing back corruption is basically saying "we fucked up" they'll remove PvP from other zones to balance things out because they don't want to lose [add random number]% of their player base.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I'm not.

Cheers

Mag7spy

They don't need to remove it and make PvP ffa, they just need to make clear of the war declaration to people when they are ready. That isn't he system that should be used for PvP and makes things less chaotic and gives a much stronger reason to be apart of certain guilds and be social.

Ludullu

Asraiel wrote: »

those that does primarly pvp aint those that craft or farm stuff and spend hours in that

I'd completely disagree with this mainly because I've played for 12 years with exactly the people who constantly pvped, while also crafting and farming stuff. And I think Steven's trying to make a game that would bring more people to that kind of medium, rather than keeping them at both opposite ends of the PvX spectrum. Now it could be argued that he'll royally fail at this endeavor, but the only way we'll know that for sure is after the release of the game.

Mag7spy

I view open sea as a different kind of PvP content, which is good since most games don't have a variety of pvp content and only add different kinds of pve content.

Asraiel

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I'm gonna make a prediction: Intrepid will eventually remove corruption from more places, probably OW dungeons, raids and possibly world bosses, then there will be a backlash of PvE players, and since bringing back corruption is basically saying "we fucked up" they'll remove PvP from other zones to balance things out because they don't want to lose [add random number]% of their player base.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling I'm not.

Cheers

ashes isnt backed by a company that is in for the mony its backed by a couple that loves mmo-rpg in pvx style and they will lunch a game that they wanna to play. so i wouldnt go so far. its developed by gamers for gamers and that has a impact on how the game will be cause those developing will be partly be seen in the game maybe you even end up in the same guild as steven. who knows.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

We've been through this, Dygz. Steven himself said that you can kill your war enemies all you want until the war ends. If a boss gonna respawn in 5 hours and I know that a particular guild will want to farm it - I'm gonna declare a war against them and fight them at the boss.

I didn't suggest that you can't kill your war enemies all you want during the war.
I said it's not going to be as simple as just declaring a war because you want to kill some boss and you don't want to gain Corruption when fighting another guild who is competing for that boss.
Doesn't really make much sense in any case because it assumes that the group of people farming that boss all belong to one guild.

NiKr wrote: »

Even if that boss respawn purely during primetime and the guild war can only be declared during primetime (I fucking hope it's not the case, but that's for a different discussion) - the guild that I'd war would have to decide between farming the boss or "winning the war", whatever form that comes in.

While true enough...
That's irrelevant to my point.

NiKr wrote: »

This is what I mean by "boss being worth it". I'd sacrifice the cost of declaring the war and the cost that comes with potentially losing it, if I considered the boss drops to be valuable enough to counterweigh those losses. This would obviously be considered in the context of guild sizes, potential allies, etc etc etc.

Yeah, but... there's not much point to a war - which is likely to last way longer than a farming session.
You don't just declare a war for 5 hours and then it's done because your guild has finished farming boss.
Perhaps you stop some rival guild from farming during the five hours your guild is farming... and then the guild farms the boss when your guild is done. In the mean-time, you still have to deal with all the other ramifications of the war that aren't associated with the boss.
So... that doesn't make a lot of sense.

NiKr wrote: »

And if both bosses and war decs can happen outside of primetime - then I'd want it to be the main source of pvp around the boss, rather than a ffa autoflag zone.

Sure. OK.

Mag7spy

@Dygz This is the difference between a pve and pvper mind set. Stopping a guild at a boss even if it is a few or a lot of them is the point. Who says that people would stop pvping them after the boss, they are KOS and being hunted more than likely. For pvp 5 hours might not be enough and they will simply redec depending on the situations.

If I'm at war I'm not stopping hunting they are destroyed completely and given up then maybe ill give mercy...maybe i won't.

If it was Noaani I wouldn't stop until he left the continent.

WHIT3ROS3

Open PvP around open world bosses leads to one thing and one thing only. Griefing. No thanks.

Asraiel

NiKr wrote: »

I'd completely disagree with this mainly because I've played for 12 years with exactly the people who constantly pvped, while also crafting and farming stuff.

here is the thing i mentioned pvpler you state pvxlers. well those that does pvp but also grind and craft are pvxlers. i however also plyed in with many players that were only pvpler they didn not grind or craft. shure due to their high gear and perfected playstyle they manages to do dungeons save with less players and so sold the spots to go along without the need to lift a finger in order to kill the boss and recive the loot.

but that what is full pvpler to me. those that does pvp and pve content doing grind and craft i count for pvx.

the good thing on ashes is that id doesnt haf fractions so everyone can fight with everyone and not have like light fights darkness. also not as in new world or blade&soul where you ether enable or disable pvp or only can do pvp if you war the fraction costume. It becomes more real. i mean you can cross the street and your best bud could drive over you with his truck (theoreticly) and thats what i think will give the thrill in ashes. who can you trust. cause everyone could stab you in the back (theoreticly)$
but as like its is in rl that these things rarely happen in games however they do tend to happen a bit more often cause your rl isnt in danger. and often you may never have seen your bud in rl or via video call. its just a random.

uh a bit carreyd away.

but jep i hope it cleared the position what i mean with pvpler and pvxler.

Dygz

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Dygz This is the difference between a pve and pvper mind set. Stopping a guild at a boss even if it is a few or a lot of them is the point. Who says that people would stop pvping them after the boss, they are KOS and being hunted more than likely. For pvp 5 hours might not be enough and they will simply redec depending on the situations.

If I'm at war I'm not stopping hunting they are destroyed completely and given up then maybe ill give mercy...maybe i won't.

Um. Yeah...who says that people would stop pvping them after the boss? I didn't.
I think you didn't understand what I wrote.

Mag7spy

Dygz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Dygz This is the difference between a pve and pvper mind set. Stopping a guild at a boss even if it is a few or a lot of them is the point. Who says that people would stop pvping them after the boss, they are KOS and being hunted more than likely. For pvp 5 hours might not be enough and they will simply redec depending on the situations.

If I'm at war I'm not stopping hunting they are destroyed completely and given up then maybe ill give mercy...maybe i won't.

Um. Yeah...who says that people would stop pvping them after the boss? I didn't.
I think you didn't understand what I wrote.

Perhaps you stop some rival guild from farming during the five hours your guild is farming... and then the guild farms the boss when your guild is done. In the mean-time, you still have to deal with all the other ramifications of the war that aren't associated with the boss.

I see no other ramifications, I just see I can pvp my target longer. What did I miss with the meaning?

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah, but... there's not much point to a war - which is likely to last way longer than a farming session.
You don't just declare a war for 5 hours and then it's done because your guild has finished farming boss.
Perhaps you stop some rival guild from farming during the five hours your guild is farming... and then the guild farms the boss when your guild is done. In the mean-time, you still have to deal with all the other ramifications of the war that aren't associated with the boss.
So... that doesn't make a lot of sense.

As I've said, that is the cost you pay. I'm talking epic legendary "one in a 2 week respawn cycle" bosses here. And wars between the strongest guilds in that region or between a local guild and a "foreigner".

If you're a top lvl guild, you'll have information about other guilds and about their farming sub-guilds, so you'd be declaring the war on those instead of the main one (that is if it's not the main one who farms bosses). And you'll weigh all the pros and cons of declaring a lengthy war just to potentially secure a boss (but never assure).

Hell, I'd even agree for those kinds of bosses to be the "goal" of a war. If we do in fact choose the stakes for a war, as you think we do, I'd definitely like for the game's system to track big boss respawn timers and link war goals to them. The boss clear could be the winstate of a war between two top lvl guilds, which could mean that the war goes on for days because neither guild would let the other one win. I'd definitely love that and Steven would probably too, considering that he likes to reminisce about the days when pretty much the same thing happened with his guild.

Liniker

Dygz wrote: »

I don't play RPGs to murder people and take their stuff - I play RPGs to experience similar stories as what I read in heroic fantasy novels. While some killing is common, murdering and stealing people's stuff typically is not a thing in those stories.
So, murdering people and stealing their stuff is not fun to me.

Yet you paid 500$ to back a fucking PvP-oriented game made by a dude that took inspiration from L2 and AA... both PVP ORIENTED GAMES - you backed a game with open world PK and open world dungeons and raids all with PK enabled plus the only way to move goods is through a PvP system called caravans.... this is beyond me. Congratulations.

Dygz

OK. We'll see if boss clear is a viable win state.

Strevi

I see nothing mentioned on wiki, what happens if a player will cause damage to another player and an NPC kills the green one.
But it is mentioned that
"The open world PvP flagging system is designed to deter people from griefing other players"

If a team is fighting a boss and another team comes and helps the boss to kill the first green players, this is griefing, isn't it?

My assumption is that the combatant becomes corrupted.
With the change requested by @Liniker , the griefing would actually be allowed.

Because the raid is intended to be doable by a "single digit percentage of the population" and because the objective is to gather resources:

They will only drop for a master gatherer who is capable of extracting those resources from the creature itself...

I think it would be against the intended game design to allow free PvP near bosses.

If the bosses would drop nothing or if the bosses would become mobile and assist the winners later in a siege, or if the caravan system is removed, then having open PvP in that area would make sense.

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