DPS Meter Megathread

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Iskiab

I've played games with and without DPS meters, and without is boring.

Once you've cleared the content and are waiting for new content to come out the only thing keeping the raid going are DPS meters. You create arbitrary challenges for yourself by stripping healers and seeing just how fast you can kill something, and people compete to see how high they can parse. Not having a meter killed the raiding scene whenever it was tried.

If you want your game to succeed it's a no brainer choice. Once the raiding scene dies the game starts dying.

akabear

I thought this was a MMO not a Raiding Game

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

I thought this was a MMO not a Raiding Game

It is - I am unsure what it is you are getting at with this comment.

akabear

"Once the raiding scene dies the game starts dying" by Iskiab

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

Once the raiding scene dies the game starts dying

Well, yeah.

Steven himself has said that the point of raiding content in Ashes is to be an aspiration to most people. In other words, the content is actually made as much for the benefit of people that are not running it as for people that are running it.

If the raiding scene dies, that aspiration for others is lost along with it. This has led to greater population loss than just those raiders in a number of games.

Edit to add; this isnt to say that it will be the death of the game, but if a games raiding scene dies, it will take more players with it than just those that were raiding. Sometimes significantly more.

You are better off saying you dont have a raiding scene than if you start with one, and then let it die.

Mag7spy

akabear wrote: »

"Once the raiding scene dies the game starts dying" by Iskiab

That persons comment translate to once raid content runs out they need dps meters to extend content which isn't true. They can min max without it and test new things out and get their higher number on killing the boss faster than the last time.

Ironic them using a meter makes that happen even faster to the point eventually they can just quit anyway.

akabear

Intrigued by the comments, I did a quick search and came across the following WoW quote asking," When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?,"

First off the bat >
"Seems to me that the change happened around Wrath. The game used raiding as it was intended as a small part of endgame content. Then they wanted more players raiding because the devs liked raiding, and felt that raiding could build a better game, and raiding requirements were lowered. They tried to become more hard in Cata and got immediate pushback. MOP made things more flexible, but still carried the emphasis on raiding, WoD was pretty much the raid or die expansion, Legion offered a ton of things for players but didn't get moving until the last patch, BFA tried to expand legions techniques but failed, and SL tried to go barebones with more emphasis on raiding and a bunch of casual players left."

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Coming from past games where raids were fun, infrequent and incidental to the game and certainly not part of end game might also explain an opposite view point.

But is Ashes a "raiding" game.. from this end appears far from it.. but will see I guess.

How are game politics, possibly the most difficult, challenging and influencial issue the game be handled with a tracker?

Mag7spy

akabear wrote: »

Intrigued by the comments, I did a quick search and came across the following WoW quote asking," When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?,"

First off the bat >
"Seems to me that the change happened around Wrath. The game used raiding as it was intended as a small part of endgame content. Then they wanted more players raiding because the devs liked raiding, and felt that raiding could build a better game, and raiding requirements were lowered. They tried to become more hard in Cata and got immediate pushback. MOP made things more flexible, but still carried the emphasis on raiding, WoD was pretty much the raid or die expansion, Legion offered a ton of things for players but didn't get moving until the last patch, BFA tried to expand legions techniques but failed, and SL tried to go barebones with more emphasis on raiding and a bunch of casual players left."

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Coming from past games where raids were fun, infrequent and incidental to the game and certainly not part of end game might also explain an opposite view point.

But is Ashes a "raiding" game.. from this end appears far from it.. but will see I guess.

How are game politics, possibly the most difficult, challenging and influencial issue the game be handled with a tracker?

Yup cause the same person arguing with everyone every single post wants instanced boss raids so no one can attack them

akabear

So.. why 144 pages of fluf!

akabear

If playing instanced raids only, I think will get pretty dry quickly!

Mag7spy

akabear wrote: »

So.. why 144 pages of fluf!

Literarily steven said no meters like 120 pages ago so now Noanni makes it his job to stop this thread from dying and post every second someone replies trying to stretch words and get them to say meters are ok in any kind of form he can reach. Even if they don't want other people to be able to view them from a tracker. Half the people were tired of going back and forth with him.

Noaani

akabear wrote: »

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Not at all.

My take on what raiding in Ashes is intended to be is based purely in what Steven has said he wants it to be.

He wants it to be content that less than 10% of players are capable of defeating (not less than 10% of players do defeat it - less than 10% are CAPABLE of defeating). They also state that they want raid content to be an aspiration for the rest of the player base.

All else aside, this is Steven's stated goal for raid content. As such, it isnt up for debate that this is the intent (I'm sure Mag will claim that I am twisting his words or something).

Every argument i have made in relation to raid content (including that aspect of a combat tracker, as well as the value of a percentage of raid content being instanced) is based on the idea that Intrepid wish to actually achieve the above stated design goal.

If Intrepid state that they have a different goal for raid content in Ashes, then the arguments I make will by necessity change to better suit that newly stated goal.

However, as it stands now, if you want content that less than 10% of your population are capable of killing, there are very few ways to actually achieve that.

In terms of trackers, if content is being made without them in mind, 50% or more of your population will be able to kill that content.

As such, in order to achieve that less than 10%, trackers need to be factored in.

Edit; if your perspective is from that if a game with raiding that does not meet the stated design goals of raid content in Ashes, then you need to understand that your previous experience isnt really applicable to Ashes.

If raiding in a game you played previously was something infrequent and not something many people aspire to be able to do, then it cant really be claimed that it fits in to what Steven has said he wants from raiding content in Ashes.

Raiding in Archeage wasnt really aspirational, and so I would consider it a failure to meet the stated goal if the raid content I Ashes is not both better and harder - as an example.

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Not at all.

My take on what raiding in Ashes is intended to be is based purely in what Steven has said he wants it to be.

He wants it to be content that less than 10% of players are capable of defeating (not less than 10% of players do defeat it - less than 10% are CAPABLE of defeating). They also state that they want raid content to be an aspiration for the rest of the player base.

If raids reward winners with legendary materials and items, the percent of the inflow will be adjusted to prevent everybody to own the top gear in the game.

Noaani

Strevi wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Not at all.

My take on what raiding in Ashes is intended to be is based purely in what Steven has said he wants it to be.

He wants it to be content that less than 10% of players are capable of defeating (not less than 10% of players do defeat it - less than 10% are CAPABLE of defeating). They also state that they want raid content to be an aspiration for the rest of the player base.

If raids reward winners with legendary materials and items, the percent of the inflow will be adjusted to prevent everybody to own the top gear in the game.

I mean, sure. This is basic itemization.

I am unsure how this relates to anything being talked about though.

Strevi

Noaani wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

So, to me, that would explain some of the mindset of those in this forum, migrating from games that are and/or became raid-orientated games such as WoW..and then wanting to replicate that same fun and emphasis by influencing the development to create the same.

Is that what this thread is really about?

Not at all.

My take on what raiding in Ashes is intended to be is based purely in what Steven has said he wants it to be.

He wants it to be content that less than 10% of players are capable of defeating (not less than 10% of players do defeat it - less than 10% are CAPABLE of defeating). They also state that they want raid content to be an aspiration for the rest of the player base.

If raids reward winners with legendary materials and items, the percent of the inflow will be adjusted to prevent everybody to own the top gear in the game.

I mean, sure. This is basic itemization.

I am unsure how this relates to anything being talked about though.

I am unsure either. You mentioned that first.
I've seen in wiki that some legendary items will be unique and only after the owner leaves the server they might be allowed to drop again.

Certain legendary items may be limited to one per server at any given time.[7][8]

If the player character leaves the server then the item will become available for acquisition through whatever means it was acquired previously.[7]

Is it important for raiders to get rewards or only defeating the boss is important?

Is the ammount of rewards important for the topic being discussed here?

Noaani

Strevi wrote: »

I am unsure either. You mentioned that first.

Where?

I don't recall talking about itemization at all in this thread. It certainly isn't in the portion of text you quoted.

Is it important for raiders to get rewards or only defeating the boss is important?

This is an entire discussion, and isn't really pertinent to a discussion about trackers - as it is it's own complete and separate issue.

The two issues are connected, but only tangentially.

MaiWaifu

Noaani wrote: »

So, when someone that has spent years working CS says "the job of CS people is much easier when players can give us objective data rather than just subjective opinions along with their bug reports", how would you not say that bug reporting is not a reason to have trackers?

I disagree with this entirely.

Just work in IT support face-to-face for a few weeks and you'll have met dozens of experts that will bring you their objective data and opinion on what's wrong.

They'll tell you "Yeah, I noticed that when I do X it does Y so it must be Z. I know you need to fix Z."

That's when you, as the actual expert find out it's totally unrelated and they're not being helpful. As the expert you're going to need to double check everything and you can't realistically trust everyone giving data since a lot of the time, it's either not relevant, factually wrong or straight up lies.

"Did you spill water?" "No." / "Did you drop it?" "No." / "Did you read the documentation?" "Yes"

In terms of using a DPS meter as a bug tracking tool, I disagree and would rather have it only available to someone that actually knows how to diagnose an issue.

This is like saying everyone should get a multimeter and to test all their electronics to better help when they need to contact an electrician.

---

I can't think of a single instance that a DPS meter would be useful in bug tracking that you wouldn't catch from basic game play. Any further in-depth testing can be done by CS with their own inhouse DevTools.

Aerlana

MaiWaifu wrote: »

This is like saying everyone should get a multimeter and to test all their electronics to better help when they need to contact an electrician.

And i would totally be in favour on more learning in schools about different meters, it iis a usefull thing to know. And not so hard to learn for most... (and not only things on multimeter.

Players do bug report. if you don't have player do bug report, who will do it ?
When you try to fix a bug, first you need to identify it, the more information as factual as possible are usefull... Sure some can seems usefull when you do the bug report and is in fact... useless...

All devs i spoke with said me they prefered detailed bug report, with as much information as possible. datas being the most factual one.

NiKr wrote: »

That's the main contradiction for me though. If tracker is not impactful why have it? And if it is impactful then why not design fights where you don't need it.

Noaani says that devs can't make a truly difficult piece of content w/o accounting for players using trackers. That leads me to believe that trackers are wildly impactful on the content and its potential difficulty.

I think we get a similar speak in fact. Me i just say "they have to consider top end players to be close top perfect efficiency. (so close to 100% of the DPS they can give on fight, while doing perfectly all mechanics with a quite low time of reaction. )

Players get closer to max efficiency due to tracker, because if they dont need to spend HOURS to fill the spreadsheet for the 3 hours raids to analyse it, they can focus on ... training, training so improve, so get close to perfection. (and you can't train well with a tracker, because you don't know if you are doing good or not... only datas can confirm if you new way to deal with the fight is better than previous, etc etc)
Tracker also makes the overall players increase, because if you can scan your guildmates you can also share information ,datas and opinion based on those factual thing to discover how to have better synergies with teammate (the bard can spam buffs when avaible, or give it to you not when couldown up but when you use your personnal burst CD, multiplying effects)

A thing that only tracker can really give as information : if you remember the valkyr thing on arthas, lets look at it. You needed to kill them fast, and so have rotation on CD for different spawn, but tracker was usefull to know if people where maybe a little too much on them allowing a better spread and/or more damages on bosses. Due to valkyr being packed, there were a good amount of damages to get in optimisation to get more DPS on boss... with good coordination of the whole raid. "giving as much DPS as possible" can be a part of the teamplay.

If devs consider "people can't be this far in perfection" (which could be a decent expectation if you consider your players not using trackers) they will make easier fights.

Gnome64

Damage meters are fine in all content. The problem, is when people use meters to harass others.

Give us a 'report bad conduct' option for cases like this. If the damage meter is built in, it can have a 'tutorial' pop-up that explains what it does and what it is for...while also saying something along the lines of "While this tool is useful for information, abusing it to insult others is against our community guidelines."

I gotta admit, I have not experienced negative damage meter comments for myself or any party member in the past few years. To the contrary, it's been used to point out AFKers who are leeching in PuG content (sometimes they just die off the bat and that's understandable, but if they do it 2-3 times in a row something is up.) If you think that's a bad thing, I don't know what to say.

MaiWaifu

Aerlana wrote: »

MaiWaifu wrote: »

This is like saying everyone should get a multimeter and to test all their electronics to better help when they need to contact an electrician.

And i would totally be in favour on more learning in schools about different meters, it iis a usefull thing to know. And not so hard to learn for most... (and not only things on multimeter.

Players do bug report. if you don't have player do bug report, who will do it ?
When you try to fix a bug, first you need to identify it, the more information as factual as possible are usefull... Sure some can seems usefull when you do the bug report and is in fact... useless...

All devs i spoke with said me they prefered detailed bug report, with as much information as possible. datas being the most factual one.

You can report a bug without overwhelming someone with information. If they ask for something specific, sure provide it.

What specific troubleshooting benefit is a DPS meter providing that isn't already in the combat log?

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