DPS Meter Megathread

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I am not convinced that the reason we get all these 'easy' and 'dumbed down' games isn't almost entirely because the retention on harder games is too low. Now, that's fine when the game doesn't have the 'meritocracy' that (I hope) we are discussing, but if a game says it from the start, then I'll take them at their word.

I'm not completely sure that retention was lower. Maybe it's nostalgic super bias, but older games seemed harder but still fun (even when difficulty came from unfair mechanics sometimes). And if you beat some commonly regarded as super difficult stage of some game, you'd be seen as superior and more skillful (one of the bigger examples of this I remember is the toy helicopter mission from Vice City).

And if you couldn't beat it yourself but knew someone who could, you'd try to socialize with them and ask for help, be it verbal or direct "do it for me" one. And when you played multiplayer (and especially mmo) games, those difficult parts would bring people together. And maybe it was my own gamer bubble, but those kind of games promoted themselves on difficulty and people were more interested in trying them out and then trying to beat them for as long as it took. The retention was quite high.

And I think that the Souls games showed that being considered a difficult game is enough to grow hype to unreasonable levels. Yes, Elden Ring has several "easy modes", but its initial hype was built on the back of all the other souls games, which were so infamously difficult that any other difficult game was "the souls game of their genre".

And I think that the top skill people in the "meritocracy" of those difficult games were one of the appealing factors for those games. But that is also the reason why I want those skillful people to stand out that much, because everyone else would have someone to look up to.

Now I'm obviously not sure whether the Intrepid's tracker would in any way dilute the "skillfulness" of the playerbase and maybe Noaani's idea of guild trackers would be the same as those guilds just using a 3rd party one, in case Intrepid kept their current stance, but, as I've said multiple times before in this thread - we gotta see the content first.

Arrogance incoming (sorta?)

There's a difference between being perceived as difficult and actually being difficult.

In a COMPETITIVE game, if you are trying to get to the top, your measuring stick is not 'this is kind of hard', it is 'peak human relative to the thing in question'.

This is not something most MMO-heavy players experience. I say that AS an MMO-heavy player for the most part.

Souls games are sorta hard, but they are not very hard. In a way, their reputation comes from the reverse situation. They are POPULAR and that means more people who aren't particularly good at them, play them and consider them hard, so they get a reputation for being hard. So, if you focus on 'can I win a fight against another player/group' and 'can I get there first', the difficulty rating skyrockets well beyond what most people call 'hard'.

But if you say 'hey let's play a Modern MMO with players from all over the world', particularly now that being good is worth more than just bragging rights, you get a lot more of those 'peak humans' staying instead of just going 'ok that was fun' and moving on long before they even realize that other people find it to be difficult.

It literally doesn't even occur to them that the thing they are doing is 'hard' until weeks later when it's in some gaming magazine..

And that's good, when there is no actual Competition, when it can't be forced on you even when it exists, and when there's matchmaking. When a person can just go 'well the point is to beat the boss at all and I can do that too I just can't do it as stylishly/perfectly as Top Player ItsYaBoiMaxSkilz', they're fine.

If we were talking about that sort of game, I would not have anything to say.

Azherae wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Instead of talking about merit just call it performance and the tool 'Tracker" as a Hack that ruins the game.

Your ability to perform will be impeded and I hope you fail to excel as a result Noaani. If you can't excel or figure out what damage is being dealt then you're not cut out for leading a Guild in a game that requires more skill than you can offer.

get wrecked

Oh? Let's try a test, then...

I can do it without the tracker. I'm basically savant-level superhuman.

The game says I win. Games always say I win. My IQ is amazing and my data processing ability is ridiculous. I want the tracker so that other people can keep up with me.

So I support the option for trackers so that I'm not alone here at the top with my genius and incredible skill.

I get to lead the strong Guild then, right?

of course you get to lead the guild. They don't need the tracker if you're the genius leading them though. You'll figure out who is doing shit damage through simple time-to-kill checks on lesser mobs and checking gear, or simply by looking at what abilities people are rotating through.
You literally just need to look at time-to-kill, spec, gear, and rotation.
Doesn't require a genius.

EDIT: I removed the part about 'Inspect' since it isn't even required.

@Noaani
you will not have a tracker. i shall curse you to break every piece of tech you touch, and hopefully Sharif will make sure the server delivers jack-all information to the client with or without an "Inspect".

Azherae wrote: »

In a COMPETITIVE game, if you are trying to get to the top, your measuring stick is not 'this is kind of hard', it is 'peak human relative to the thing in question'.

This is not something most MMO-heavy players experience. I say that AS an MMO-heavy player for the most part.

How difficult is it to win in BDO's pvp against someone with better gear? Is it impossible due to bad gear design or is it just very hard and depends on the difference of skill?

Obviously mmo's balancing is never as tight as fighting games' one and never as fair as smth like a CSGO or other team shooter, but pvp mmos still present you with the "beat the human" difficulty rather than just a pve one.

But I guess that's kinda what you were talking about here

Azherae wrote: »

So, if you focus on 'can I win a fight against another player/group' and 'can I get there first', the difficulty rating skyrockets well beyond what most people call 'hard'.

Which usually resulted in most players leaving because they weren't prepared for the difficulty of going against superior players (be that through gear or just skill).

Azherae wrote: »

And that's good, when there is no actual Competition, when it can't be forced on you even when it exists, and when there's matchmaking. When a person can just go 'well the point is to beat the boss at all and I can do that too I just can't do it as stylishly/perfectly as Top Player ItsYaBoiMaxSkilz', they're fine.

If we were talking about that sort of game, I would not have anything to say.

Yeah, AoC's design is pretty much the opposite of that. And I guess that if Intrepid go through with the supposed pve design, it's gonna be an even worse situation, where a pretty big part of the content will be completely inaccessible to the majority of players because either its difficulty is too high or the "superior" players stop that majority from even attempting the content.

So then @NiKr, that is why I feel one can at least somewhat speculate on what will happen without seeing the content.

Meritocracy is created automatically when the strong can prevent the weaker from HAVING things, and also have skills above them.

Azherae wrote: »

So then NiKr, that is why I feel one can at least somewhat speculate on what will happen without seeing the content.

Meritocracy is created automatically when the strong can prevent the weaker from HAVING things, and also have skills above them.

I must've just gone down a self-imposed tangent in my head and missed the thread of the overall conversation

Yeah, I agree that any PvX mmo is a pure meritocracy because there'll always be someone who'll stop you from increasing your "merit". Especially pvx mmos with free market.

Want to kill mobs? Fuck you, you can't because another dude played x2 as much as you and/or has better gear and skill, and he always kills you when you approach the mobs.

Want to become a top trader? Fuck you, a mafia guild is controlling the market completely.

Want to become a top crafter? Same shit, you got no resources to use in crafting and no mobs to get those resources from.

And imo any social "merit" comes from outside of the game, because being social is not a gameplay mechanic so it doesn't really have anything to do with your merit in the game. And I think that's exactly the reason why social media has pushed out and kinda replaced the mmo genre. Because that social "merit" suddenly became much higher on the social media, due to the deeper irl ties and more potential consequences (be they positive or negative).

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

So then NiKr, that is why I feel one can at least somewhat speculate on what will happen without seeing the content.

Meritocracy is created automatically when the strong can prevent the weaker from HAVING things, and also have skills above them.

I must've just gone down a self-imposed tangent in my head and missed the thread of the overall conversation Yeah, I agree that any PvX mmo is a pure meritocracy because there'll always be someone who'll stop you from increasing your "merit". Especially pvx mmos with free market.

Want to kill mobs? Fuck you, you can't because another dude played x2 as much as you and/or has better gear and skill, and he always kills you when you approach the mobs.

Want to become a top trader? Fuck you, a mafia guild is controlling the market completely.

Want to become a top crafter? Same shit, you got no resources to use in crafting and no mobs to get those resources from.

And imo any social "merit" comes from outside of the game, because being social is not a gameplay mechanic so it doesn't really have anything to do with your merit in the game. And I think that's exactly the reason why social media has pushed out and kinda replaced the mmo genre. Because that social "merit" suddenly became much higher on the social media, due to the deeper irl ties and more potential consequences (be they positive or negative).

I believe that MMOs are not doomed in this way. I simply believe that they need to take an entirely different approach than they have ever taken towards rewarding people.

I just also don't think that it's sensible to create a Meritocracy game and then tell people 'don't use tools to close the gap between you and the naturally talented, you should either befriend/serve those people or not play/expect to do well because that's what MMOs are all about'.

It's not an invalid option. It just isn't the option I see leading to good outcomes. Especially when it relies on:

"Oh and if you do use them we will use surveillance on your computer to catch you and possibly ban you so only the people who know how to evade our surveillance actually get to get ahead/catch up, sorry you don't have any programming skills either but that's sometimes just how the world works, go defend/level your Node'.

That's just double Meritocracy, and one half of that isn't even game related.

Azherae wrote: »

I believe that MMOs are not doomed in this way. I simply believe that they need to take an entirely different approach than they have ever taken towards rewarding people.

Do you have any ideas for this? Cause I can't really come up with any that would fit a pvx game, outside of the obvious instanced content that is either easy enough or just doesn't scale the loot value with its difficulty.

Azherae wrote: »

I just also don't think that it's sensible to create a Meritocracy game and then tell people 'don't use tools to close the gap between you and the naturally talented, you should either befriend/serve those people or not play/expect to do well because that's what MMOs are all about'.

Would trackers give a much bigger advantage than, say, a dps dummy? Obviously they provide some tangible advantage against a semi or fully scripted pve encounter, but in my experience mass pvp is just too chaotic to properly assess what led to what, if you were trying to figure out what to avoid in future mass pvp encounters (well, at least nothing that you wouldn't have seen with your own eyes, like "people stood in aoes" or "enemy rogue killed our healer").

And if you can't even attempt the pve part of the game because you lose every pvp encounter before it, I'd assume that it wouldn't really matter whether your enemy used trackers for the pve or not because their inherent merit is just way higher than yours already.

@NiKr
social media the mmo lol

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I believe that MMOs are not doomed in this way. I simply believe that they need to take an entirely different approach than they have ever taken towards rewarding people.

Do you have any ideas for this? Cause I can't really come up with any that would fit a pvx game, outside of the obvious instanced content that is either easy enough or just doesn't scale the loot value with its difficulty.

Azherae wrote: »

I just also don't think that it's sensible to create a Meritocracy game and then tell people 'don't use tools to close the gap between you and the naturally talented, you should either befriend/serve those people or not play/expect to do well because that's what MMOs are all about'.

Would trackers give a much bigger advantage than, say, a dps dummy? Obviously they provide some tangible advantage against a semi or fully scripted pve encounter, but in my experience mass pvp is just too chaotic to properly assess what led to what, if you were trying to figure out what to avoid in future mass pvp encounters (well, at least nothing that you wouldn't have seen with your own eyes, like "people stood in aoes" or "enemy rogue killed our healer").

And if you can't even attempt the pve part of the game because you lose every pvp encounter before it, I'd assume that it wouldn't really matter whether your enemy used trackers for the pve or not because their inherent merit is just way higher than yours already.

This brings us back to 'which things people can notice', but for clarity, remember, I am not saying 'I believe everyone should have a way to notice things'. I'm still standing precisely on the spot of 'Wait, if you make a game hard enough that only I notice the things, won't people stop playing it?'

For now give me the benefit of 'believing I'm as good as I say at these things', then apply the reasoning. I have only ever directly met one other person that can do what I do consistently. I don't do it in PvE as much because it has been so long since I played a game with PvE that required it and didn't just give an easy bypass for all the people who can't do it.

That's the level of difference between 'Tracker' and 'DPS dummy'. Remember, I'm a healer, I am not even watching my own DPS, I'm watching everyone else's DPS and the Tank's mitigation at the same time. And this is in MOBAs. I did it in Ashes Sieges and it was effective to a level that made me think something was off in balance.

I'm quite literally saying that there's no way for most people to understand what I'm talking about because I can see things/make connections that they CANNOT make. The usual response to this, as you could probably guess, is to deny the possibility of that (either for people in general, or just for me, if I'm in an argument). But that's literally what those supposed 'IQ' tests are really testing. I don't care whether or not a high score on an IQ test means I am better than, or smarter than, people, in GENERAL, but I know what they test. They test 'the ability to make abstract connections about patterns'. Their entire purpose (especially the higher level specialized ones) is to present the test subject with patterns that require increasingly more abstract thought or pattern recognition until they can no longer even conceptualize how to arrive at the answer.

That's the gap they're meant to show.

"This is your limit, you literally cannot comprehend how this thing is possible, as opposed to this person who has a higher IQ than you, who can comprehend it."

So either IQ tests are bullshit even at testing the SPECIFIC thing that we know they ACTUALLY test... or a high IQ person can do things that other people quite possibly NEED a tool to do. And if that is the case and the game is a challenge to that person, those who cannot will either follow that person's directives, or rely on a tool.

As for what one should do to change the way players are rewarded, that is a matter of something that I don't know how people react to, but Intrepid already may have and Aerlana has already discussed.

Outright make builds that are 80-90% as effective as a build that is harder to play and master for others. Then do the same for PvE encounters, then do whatever it takes to make players who use those builds or specialize in those encounters, feel meaningful.

But there does always need to be that '100% max build', that 'How is this even possible?' level of opponent, and that's partially why games tend to need either PvE or P2W.

Azherae wrote: »

So either IQ tests are bullshit even at testing the SPECIFIC thing that we know they ACTUALLY test... or a high IQ person can do things that other people quite possibly NEED a tool to do. And if that is the case and the game is a challenge to that person, those who cannot will either follow that person's directives, or rely on a tool.

But I'm not even talking pattern-based events. I'm literally talking "I, as a healer, was killed by a rogue and after that the whole party died because the healing stopped". And "a whole fucking party of people didn't run out of an aoe in time and that whole front of attack crumbled because of that".

I've seen those things happen in L2 countless times and I've been in such situations qutie a bit too. And pretty much everyone, including the main victims, knew what had happened and why it did.

And that is why I made the comparison of scripted pve where super detailed patterns could be designed and then figured out by players (with or without trackers), and the chaotic mass pvp stuff where you have the super obvious stuff that I mentioned and the super obscure situations that, even if you did recognize them as a valuable info point, you might never encounter again just because that exact situation might never come up in that exact way. When you have even 50x50 pvp (which will most likely be one front of attack/defense during sieges), the sheer amount of variables is just insane, mainly because people aren't robots so they can't replicate each and every fight 1-to-1.

So imo a tracker wouldn't really influence that part of the meritocracy equation. And if the other part doesn't even come up, then the losers wouldn't really care about it in the first place. Hell, they might not even know that it's happening, unless they try to party up with the winners. But quite often the winners don't want to work together with the weak, cause why even would they (well except if they're super kind and no longer need to farm that content).

Azherae wrote: »

As for what one should do to change the way players are rewarded, that is a matter of something that I don't know how people react to, but Intrepid already may have and Aerlana has already discussed.

Outright make builds that are 80-90% as effective as a build that is harder to play and master for others. Then do the same for PvE encounters, then do whatever it takes to make players who use those builds or specialize in those encounters, feel meaningful.

And here, I'd say, we're back to my expectation of content reveal

I was mainly talking about the pve part, because that's a bigger part of the tracker discussion (at least imo), but gear/class design and balance are also definitely a part of the overall picture.

I'm used to a very straightforward balancing so I don't really have anything to add to this particular discussion except for "I agree with it and hope it works out".

Azherae wrote: »

But there does always need to be that '100% max build', that 'How is this even possible?' level of opponent, and that's partially why games tend to need either PvE or P2W.

And to me, this "build" comes through OE. That reasoning is mainly based on the combination of straightforward gear design combined with rps class design, but if Intrepid went for some skill-based methods of OE acquisition (especially if they're class-based), I think it could still be considered a good way to stand out from the crowd.

I'd personally be fine with a solo class-based instanced dungeon that rewards you with some OE items or maybe catalysts that ensure that OE doesn't fail. And when you see someone with a full set of OEd complex build - you know that bastard excels at his class and at the game itself.

Hm... I'm thinking about how to make this point without referencing fighting games, but I might not be able to.

Imagine you have a character/build that has an answer to EVERYTHING, but they therefore have so many moves and options that their gameplan is fluid, and you must be constantly thinking and perfectly reacting, but if you can do it, you're basically untouchable.

And then you have a character/build that has three main options and spends their time 'trying to get to the position to use them and defending until the opponent makes an error' and then does considerable damage with those simple options.

In order for the game to be balanced normally, the first character has to have the potential to theoretically always win. They are 'the best, on paper', because they could handle any situation. If you wanted to be the strongest POSSIBLE, you would need to play that build and play it perfectly.

Extend this to group composition. Extend this to raid composition. The user of that one feels rewarded because they do the right thing 90% of the time but have complete freedom. The user of the other feels rewarded because they do the 'right thing' 100% of the time. But if they ever meet a group/player/guild that can actually do the right thing 100% of the time with the first build type, defeat is basically guaranteed, by whatever definition of defeat you have.

Both sides complain equally. The 100% crowd complains that they are not 'really' the best and can't ever theoretically win against the 'normally 90%' crowd if the latter suddenly played perfectly. The 'normally 90% crowd' complains because they 'have to maintain at least 90% and work harder or they will lose to the simpler tactic'.

The design concept has to reach that razor-thin point where the requirement for beating the absolute hardest content is '101%' of the simple build, and '91%' of the complex one. One wins by luck (usually taking a risk and getting away with it, which gives them their thrill), and the other wins by 'skill' (but really just luck of how focused they are when doing it).

As for the other point, I'll just remind again that I only think in terms of Chaotic PvE being hard. You say 'mainly because people aren't robots', but that's really not the point.

One only ever needs to learn to counter OPTIMAL opposing strategies. If the '100% group' is actually fighting at less than 100%, then the 'normally 90%' don't need to keep up perfection. And vice versa. If the normally 90% group are making mistakes, the 100% rotation group can take a risk and still win.

Idk if you don't encounter it, but top level gamers are VERY close to 'robots'. There have been I believe MULTIPLE situations at this point where a player was banned for botting in a game and then had to prove that they could physically do the thing.

But in the end I guess this is not really a thing that can be explained because of the exact thing I'm talking about. You say 'the amount of variables is insane', but to me it just... isn't. I just dump all the variables for all the options that 'could be defeated without specific responses'.

This isn't to say that there isn't a level where the number of variables becomes too much for me. The only point I'm making is that before it gets to that point, other people start 'cheating' (or complaining that the game is too hard and impossible and just stop).

In some recent thread, Mag7 was trolling JustVine about Malenia from Elden Ring, I think... I watched her fight Malenia, about twice, and then said "Aim at her left shoulder instead".

And that was it. Two tries later she won.

I don't play Elden Ring.

[SOLVED]
no meter or logs
##s all obfuscated
variables all intertwine

gg gamers

Azherae wrote: »

Imagine you have a character/build that has an answer to EVERYTHING, but they therefore have so many moves and options that their gameplan is fluid, and you must be constantly thinking and perfectly reacting, but if you can do it, you're basically untouchable.
And then you have a character/build that has three main options and spends their time 'trying to get to the position to use them and defending until the opponent makes an error' and then does considerable damage with those simple options.

In order for the game to be balanced normally, the first character has to have the potential to theoretically always win. They are 'the best, on paper', because they could handle any situation. If you wanted to be the strongest POSSIBLE, you would need to play that build and play it perfectly.

Extend this to group composition. Extend this to raid composition. The user of that one feels rewarded because they do the right thing 90% of the time but have complete freedom. The user of the other feels rewarded because they do the 'right thing' 100% of the time. But if they ever meet a group/player/guild that can actually do the right thing 100% of the time with the first build type, defeat is basically guaranteed, by whatever definition of defeat you have.

Both sides complain equally. The 100% crowd complains that they are not 'really' the best and can't ever theoretically win against the 'normally 90%' crowd if the latter suddenly played perfectly. The 'normally 90% crowd' complains because they 'have to maintain at least 90% and work harder or they will lose to the simpler tactic'.

The design concept has to reach that razor-thin point where the requirement for beating the absolute hardest content is '101%' of the simple build, and '91%' of the complex one. One wins by luck (usually taking a risk and getting away with it, which gives them their thrill), and the other wins by 'skill' (but really just luck of how focused they are when doing it).

I'd say that my preferred class of SoulHound in L2 was the closest to this. The only thing it was missing was some form of ultimate defense ability (it got it in a later update at the cost of some nerfs), but it compensated the physical part of the received dmg by having a strong evasion buff. It also had a fairly op paralyze ability, but even outside of that "one fits all" tool it had a ton of variety for most situations in the game. It was my favorite class so if Intrepid manage to design their classes (at all amounts of people) that way - I'll be super happy.

Azherae wrote: »

As for the other point, I'll just remind again that I only think in terms of Chaotic PvE being hard. You say 'mainly because people aren't robots', but that's really not the point.

One only ever needs to learn to counter OPTIMAL opposing strategies. If the '100% group' is actually fighting at less than 100%, then the 'normally 90%' don't need to keep up perfection. And vice versa. If the normally 90% group are making mistakes, the 100% rotation group can take a risk and still win.

Idk if you don't encounter it, but top level gamers are VERY close to 'robots'. There have been I believe MULTIPLE situations at this point where a player was banned for botting in a game and then had to prove that they could physically do the thing.

I'm sure that singular people can achieve robot-like execution of gameplay, but I was talking about mass pvp as the main source of high amounts of variables. Even if we assume that a supposed group of 40 people (if we're just talking a raid vs raid encounter before a boss) can play the game in an insanely precise way w/o ever making a single mistake and always acting in exactly the same way (all rotations, all movements, all skills - all the same) - they still wouldn't be able to control the enemy side's actions, so there might be situations where even the "100%" crowd does smth that works well against the current "optimal" build of the "90%" people.

And if you're suggesting a balance design that allows those 90%ers to literally always win, as long as they perform well, then the razor-thin design should apply to the mass-pvp too, and in such a way that the always-losers don't feel so utterly defeated that they just give up. And I'm personally not sure if such a design is even possible. Especially if you consider a group of people that can potentially perfectly execute any gameplay action at all times.

I've narrowly lost encounters against better geared and better skilled players when I was a guild leader and even then quite a few guildmates became defeatists almost immediately because they thought it'd be impossible to win again. And that was in L2 where that kind of interaction was way more mundane. I'm not sure how the current crowd of gamers would take multiple successive losses against the same enemy.

And that doubt is probably the main reason why I'd be against having a "truly optimal" raid-sized build in Ashes. You could have 5 killer parties, but, in theory, they should be able to be beaten by a combination of 5 other parties that have classes that might, at the very least, semi-counter them. This way each former party could be seen as the peak performers and could be able to outplay any "100%er" party, but it might not be as easy to do in a raid vs raid situation. Though my designing abilities are not strong enough to come up with a way to properly implement that w/o it feeling cheap for the "90%ers".

I lost my point in that last post. I was trying to get at the point of "trackers might not give you the perfect solution for mass pvp, so their presence or absence wouldn't really be felt there".

yall left that point a while ago

NiKr wrote: »

I lost my point in that last post. I was trying to get at the point of "trackers might not give you the perfect solution for mass pvp, so their presence or absence wouldn't really be felt there".

Well remember that we are on the Meritocracy tangent atm.

I agree with everything you say about the design itself, which could put us back at 'the issue with challenging PvE being disrupted by other groups' instead.

Mostly I was addressing @MrPockets flow. The game creates the Meritocracy and this incentivizes some people to use Trackers to keep up with the crazy savants. I think I can clarify something else though.

I care about other people having fun. Without tools, many people have less fun. I won't use Trackers in Ashes, but I know that 'not being able to figure out what to do' in MMOs for your own style and build is not generally fun. And MMOs are complicated, or at least I figure this one could be.

If it were me, I would not be willing to tell a person who is not good at figuring these things out 'well you have to wait for someone to explain it to you'. There are SO many random bullshit issues with the WAY human minds see patterns that datasets on the scope of 'MMOs' just straight up trick people. Clusters, streaks, all completely misleading.

One of my tests for my own game has me convinced that a certain mob in it just rolls Nat 20 more often for no clear reason. I am leaning into it for the story, and it's both 'unlikely to be for any in-code reason' and even more likely to be a specific form of observational bias, but I have checked and purely by CHANCE, this mob type crits more often.

I've seen the code, I know that it isn't based on some hidden thing. But that's a good example. If you had gear that would protect more against crits but less against regular damage, in Ashes, how would you ever know if it was worth wearing it? Against my mob, you should always wear it (based on the data from the streaky sample set). In 'expected reality', you should never wear it.

I want the person who is frustrated that this mob SEEMS to always crit them at the worst times, to be able to get the data to confirm that isn't true statistically across all usage without having to ask EVERY guild member they have for their own combat logs, and then go through the combat logs of over a hundred people by hand to verify 'no this mob does not have a higher critrate'.

Because otherwise they're going to have to convince everyone else 'yeah this mob crits extra so I bought some crit-resist gear'. And because (in this scenario) they are WRONG, then if the mob does NOT crit but just does consistent damage, then they've made things harder for their group by coming to the wrong conclusion.

I don't fault your reasoning that somehow it's important that this unlucky person needs to figure it out with the help of others. I just don't want their experience to be everyone else going 'man idk doesn't seem that way to me, but you can go through everyone's logs if you want'.

Guild Tracker version of the same situation:
"Guys I keep getting crit by Minotaurs do they have higher critrate to you?"
"Lemme check my parser... nope, actually seems a little lower than I expect?"
"Nah mine's normal I think."
"Also lower, my dude, it's just you."
"Oh ok I won't worry about getting this no-crit gear."
"Maybe we should check if your OTHER gear has some sort of hidden 'enemy critical hit rate up'?"
"Oh yeah that'd be good, but that could take days..."
"You can lend it to us and we'll help test it."

I know you've said many times that to you, the other way is how it should be. I just don't think the other way's fun.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

[SOLVED]
no meter or logs
##s all obfuscated
variables all intertwine

gg gamers

The number of people that would look at a game that did this with nothing other than suspicion would see that game dead on arrival.

While we may all like Intrepid, and perhaps even have faith in them, that doesnt mean we trust them. Players in general dont trust MMO developers (as MMO developers have proven to not be trustworthy).

As such, most players will look at any game that doesnt give players any feedback as trying to hide something, and many will simply not play the game.

Among those that do play, the developer is already on the back foot in terms of developer/playerbase relations, and it will be very hard to win players over from that starting point.

Fortunately, we all know you dont want this. Tou are just upset that your idea was deemed to not be a solution to the situation at hand, and after this was very politely pointed out to you, rather than trying to find a way to make your suggestion work, you instead decided to just get salty.