DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.

Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files?

This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension.

"Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?"

request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power
Mag7spy used the word "communicate"

You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need.

This is true, but both would be present in a live game.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.

Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files?

This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension.

"Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?"

request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power
Mag7spy used the word "communicate"

You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need.

This is quite true, but you might need to clarify to me what the purpose of the note about 'request = demand' is.

I absolutely admit that I'm a person who will try to solve problems via analysis. I will do it for/to people who aren't as good at the analysis. Some people consider this good, some bad.

This is kind of MY point. If I am in a position of power to 'demand' logs so that I can work out how to run content more efficiently (mainly because I am 'elitist' and don't enjoy failing the same way repeatedly, I at least want to fail in a new way and make some progress) there's a good chance I would do it. But no one should have to worry about that outside of my guild anyway unless they very much insist on participating in content I lead.

However, if the problem here is that 'someone like me has that position of power', then the problem being proposed isn't one of 'I don't want logs or a tracker', it's almost explicitly 'I don't want people like you to have power or demand things from others'. To the point of suggesting 'the game should be built differently so that the skill style you have is less effective' (to be clear I don't mind nor care about this either personally)

So I'm trying to figure out, does Mag actually care about 'trackers' in and of themselves, or just 'doesn't want the game to reward me for being the way I am'? That's a valid response, surely, but it's unresolvable, tracker or not, it just goes back to the same 'toxicity and friction'.

So to anyone who doesn't want Trackers, the question is open. Is it that you don't want to give me your Combat Logs, even if I promise I will never even run a parser on them and you could be SURE that I did not? The result will be the same. I will read them, do the math and check the times, and a number/strategy will happen, it will just take longer.

Is the 'taking longer' part important? Or is 'me not being able to do it' important?

MrPockets

Azherae wrote: »

So to anyone who doesn't want Trackers, the question is open. Is it that you don't want to give me your Combat Logs, even if I promise I will never even run a parser on them and you could be SURE that I did not? The result will be the same. I will read them, do the math and check the times, and a number/strategy will happen, it will just take longer.

Is the 'taking longer' part important? Or is 'me not being able to do it' important?

I'll take a stab at this question...

Things I personally want:

a fun game
an interesting fantasy world
a place to interact with others to tackle fun challenges

Things I do NOT want:

worrying about where the game stores my log files
installing random 3rd party software to obtain said logs
worrying more about optimizing my build/rotation instead of playing the game
players gatekeeping based on meta game information.

I am of the opinion that a game can exists that provides fun/unique challenges for players to overcome WITHOUT a need for something like a combat tracker.

But I also acknowledge that some people enjoy analyzing data, and I am fine with the top 1% playing that way. The reason I don't want IS to open the flood gates with a first party tracker (or explicitly allow 3rd party trackers) is because I believe that pushes more of the population into this weird state of thinking these trackers make them better players because their number is higher than the other guy's.

I know that the general response to this is going to be: "well FF14 doesn't allow trackers and look at all the downloads!" and personally, I'm fine with how FF14 does it...it makes my experience more enjoyable because I'm not hounded by most players about damage meters. If I want to dive into that world, let me opt into it.

And let me just reiterate...I don't care that high end players use these things...I care when 'Timmy' won't shut up about "being better" because some number was bigger.

Azherae

MrPockets wrote: »

I know that the general response to this is going to be: "well FF14 doesn't allow trackers and look at all the downloads!" and personally, I'm fine with how FF14 does it...it makes my experience more enjoyable because I'm not hounded by most players about damage meters. If I want to dive into that world, let me opt into it.

And let me just reiterate...I don't care that high end players use these things...I care when 'Timmy' won't shut up about "being better" because some number was bigger.

I see. I don't really have any followups, I do appreciate the answer though.

If the goal is 'to have players other than the top % feel like trackers are not going to be important', I feel like Intrepid can achieve this, it is already 'working'. I personally don't see how a complex game with variability in builds would result in people not WANTING a tracker. And because I know how difficult it would be to prevent them from HAVING the tracker, the resultant concern is:

"The game will not be complex."

I don't want a situation where the game IS complex and the 'only' successful players are those who use whatever Tracker they build. Not at top end either. Because Top End uses Trackers very differently than Middle-of-the-pack.

But I also don't want the solution to be 'we just won't make a complex game'. That is totally selfish ofc, so it's not relevant much. If Intrepid says 'we aren't making the game very complex' then so it is.

MrPockets

Azherae wrote: »

But I also don't want the solution to be 'we just won't make a complex game'. That is totally selfish ofc, so it's not relevant much. If Intrepid says 'we aren't making the game very complex' then so it is.

100% agree. Complex games are good, but as with most things, there is a balance.

I think another kind of player enjoys complexity, where they get to experiment and explore, rather than just "follow the meta build".

IMO: when tracker "culture" becomes embraced by the devs, it takes away that sense of exploration/experimentation for a lot of players, and more of the game turns into a spreadsheet.

Now obviously all this meta gaming will still exists regardless of trackers, but I think WAY more 'innocent' players are shielded from that culture by default. If players want to dive into that scene - go for it, but don't force everyone else along with you.

Azherae

MrPockets wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

But I also don't want the solution to be 'we just won't make a complex game'. That is totally selfish ofc, so it's not relevant much. If Intrepid says 'we aren't making the game very complex' then so it is.

100% agree. Complex games are good, but as with most things, there is a balance.

I think another kind of player enjoys complexity, where they get to experiment and explore, rather than just "follow the meta build".

IMO: when tracker "culture" becomes embraced by the devs, it takes away that sense of exploration/experimentation for a lot of players, and more of the game turns into a spreadsheet.

Now obviously all this meta gaming will still exists regardless of trackers, but I think WAY more 'innocent' players are shielded from that culture by default. If players want to dive into that scene - go for it, but don't force everyone else along with you.

My 'aim' here is to figure out where people think it happens. Because we all obviously have different experiences. One of the main arguments being offered against the specific suggestion (guild perk) is that it's a gateway concept and everyone will think it matters because of that.

Yet we have combat logs, which, regardless of any tracking or parsing being done, could have the same thing happen, as you said. If enough people like me 'are succeeding' and ask for them, then it might become 'accepted' that 'people ask for them'.

Most posters have so far implied that this is fine, but a few 'don't want information to even be available in the log'. Now, this could simply be 'because if it is in the log it can be fed into a parser', but they also make multiple arguments that seem specifically focused on 'Tracking During Combat' (which I would like to assume couldn't be achieved with the logs).

If a community forms where people 'take Combat Logs and upload them to a site', parsed or not, is the average player protected by just 'their unwillingness to do so' or their 'lack of understanding'? If 'Reading The Logs' is part of success, then those who seek success will want logs. I just want to know if Mag7 and the few (one?) who have given similar responses recently, want it to be that 'Reading The Logs' is not a meaningful part of success for Boss Level PvE in Ashes. Is this a requirement for the 'innocent player' to exist?

Sapiverenus

Ace1234 wrote: »

I agree that there should be basic feedback, and that there are deeper issues to address.

I don't like Logs either or having exact info though. It removes an element of the game; simple as that.

A lot of things can be clear and transparent without numbers. A dagger hitting someone's armor and going 'clink' is pretty clear that it did nothing, for instance. A lack of blood and shallow slashing animation makes it clear.

Just make things non-arbitrary and remove the arbitrary NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS. Arcade MMO BS

If you walk up to a person in PvP you can either 1. Know everything about them or 2. Not know everything about them.
It's just more fun to have limited information. Why do people play Rogues? Who is like a Rogue in real life? What do Rogues like to do? Probably hide their damn info.
Who wants everything about them known because the developers decided that's good fun; MIND be damned, time to NERD OUT BOYS and PLAY SOME VIDYA.

Hence, indubiously, undoubtedly, having complete information is a dumb programmer-art tier gimmick that only a nerd could think is a good idea.
I should be able to hide my Nameplate even. game can be designed to run smooth af; see their face? Well next time you see it you'll see it you might see the location you last saw them if, perhaps, your Char has enough of some Attribute & Skill, or if you literally zoom in and look at the character face to figure it out. Maybe it takes a few seconds to figure it out.
They type in /say? Speech bubble? Well you might 'recognize it'. Then it gets a custom design or something so it's visually distinct.

'Obfuscation' skill? Hide their speech pattern? Mimic another's? Available to everyone, but Rogues are particularly good at it. Faceshifting? Sounds pretty Rogue.

Plenty reason to have limited information.

In-combat?

Hide how injured you are. Hide how weak you are. Bluff. Easy af.

Get the Ranger to figure out how injured the animal is. Get the Mage to figure out how injured the magical Stone Golem is. Class-based Information gathering.

It's just the fun of being in a world rather than a nerdgachi number-reading time-waster.

Sapiverenus

Ace1234 wrote: »

From there I think the depth aspect is looking pretty solid so far, that a meter/tracker would enhance it further instead of rewarding the bad-theory crafting of builds.

You ever hear or read about "Hostile Architecture"?
Designed to make it uncomfortable for people to lay down, sit in certain places, loiter, that sort of thing? An anti-homeless measure for the most part.

Well I hope such Hostile Architecture are in more games to keep the bots, number nerds, and scripters out.

[STAY OUT]

And get a sense of rhythm and pace if you want to figure out your dps lmao. rewarding skill. . .. get real.

MrPockets

Azherae wrote: »

If a community forms where people 'take Combat Logs and upload them to a site', parsed or not, is the average player protected by just 'their unwillingness to do so' or their 'lack of understanding'? If 'Reading The Logs' is part of success, then those who seek success will want logs. I just want to know if Mag7 and the few (one?) who have given similar responses recently, want it to be that 'Reading The Logs' is not a meaningful part of success for Boss Level PvE in Ashes. Is this a requirement for the 'innocent player' to exist?

It depends on what the definition of success is to the **majority** of the player base (THIS IS NOT the 1%)
If players needs to manually upload things, or risk being banned for 3rd party tools...I would hope this discourages the majority from defining success as "everything needs to be done optimally 100% of the time" (this is an exaggeration, but I think that's the general direction trackers push a game towards)

If most of the content can be done without trackers and just takes some trial and error, and decent coordination with your party, I think that is a potential sweet spot. (maybe 50ish attempts and a group should learn the fight?)

What I want to avoid, is the average player claiming you NEED a tracker for these fights that clearly don't need them. They may make things easier, but the content should be do-able without them. (I am excluding the tippy-top 1% fights).

It should be an acceptable stance, that players want to attempt to learn fights without these tools. When trackers become the norm, it becomes harder to find players with that mentality. Even something as simple as the devs being against trackers, I think helps encourage players to not see things in such black/white terms.

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus
I never said you should be able to track enemy stats, I actually stated that you shouldn't be able to do that because learning about your enemy is part of the strategy, so I don't think you read my full argument.

My point was that I am more in favor of an individual player or team simply being able to have easy accessible feedback on whether your build decisions are an improvment, rather than hiding information and results behind inconclusive feedback. I would summarize my supporting points but it would be easier to just go back and re-read them fully. This would be better for those who can skillfully craft good builds, and the system should be in depth enough that its much more efficient to be smart, than to use the feedback to test every possible combination to see what is optimal- which is no different than beating on enemies until they die to figure it out, except not as tedious.

You can say that not everything should be about numbers, but it already is going to be a major part with the current direction, therefore if health and dps is important and valued, then having that clear numerical feedback would be beneficial in a system that has any sort of depth to it.

"And get a sense of rhythm and pace if you want to figure out your dps lmao. rewarding skill. . .. get real."

Had you taken the time to read that I don't support revealing enemy build details ahead of time, you would realize that I want skill to be rewarded and that being able to measure your own stats can be rewarding skill depending on the other factors that I said needed to be addresed for this to be the case.

Rythm and pace is too vague and therefore would detract from the skill of theory crafting because of a lack of clear numerical feedback. I prefer to reward theory crafting skill over "rythm and pacing" if I have to make that choice.

Stop making annoying comments acting like I dont know what Im talking about, we've been over this before. I will gladly explain my stance so I don't need you to act like I just have no reasoning behind what I am saying.

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234
Why are you talking about stats
Where did I say what you say I said something

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

If you walk up to a person in PvP you can either 1. Know everything about them or 2. Not know everything about them.
It's just more fun to have limited information. Why do people play Rogues? Who is like a Rogue in real life? What do Rogues like to do? Probably hide their damn info.
Who wants everything about them known because the developers decided that's good fun; MIND be damned, time to NERD OUT BOYS and PLAY SOME VIDYA.

Hence, indubiously, undoubtedly, having complete information is a dumb programmer-art tier gimmick that only a nerd could think is a good idea.
I should be able to hide my Nameplate even. game can be designed to run smooth af; see their face? Well next time you see it you'll see it you might see the location you last saw them if, perhaps, your Char has enough of some Attribute & Skill, or if you literally zoom in and look at the character face to figure it out. Maybe it takes a few seconds to figure it out.
They type in /say? Speech bubble? Well you might 'recognize it'. Then it gets a custom design or something so it's visually distinct.

'Obfuscation' skill? Hide their speech pattern? Mimic another's? Available to everyone, but Rogues are particularly good at it. Faceshifting? Sounds pretty Rogue.

Plenty reason to have limited information.

Because you are acting like I think all of this info should just be revealed, which I am not sure how you could have possibly gathered that from actually reading the few paragraphs I posted today.

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

Why are you talking about stats
Where did I say what you say I said something?

Also because you took my closing statement and solely responded to my conclusion which was:

From there I think the depth aspect is looking pretty solid so far, that a meter/tracker would enhance it further instead of rewarding the bad-theory crafting of builds.

while completely dismissing all of the supporting points that lead to it in this response:

And get a sense of rhythm and pace if you want to figure out your dps lmao. rewarding skill. . .. get real.

While somehow throwing in that I think enemy info should be revealed- like dude that pisses me off that you would talk down to me after completely dismissing everything. You should know better than that, and should know that I will call you out on it.

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234

If you agree info should be hidden and parts revealed by layers of mechanics, attributes, skills, and all for the design of a good game;

then what are you arguing about?

Oh wait here it is: "Rhythm and Pace is too vague" you think people shouldn't have to use their sense of time to figure out what their damage output is LOL

It's too vague because you're bad at it. get good or let others 'excel' because they are, you and ohters aren't.

Lay on the bumpy bench.

What else are you arguing about? You want precise damage, healing, and perhaps "health points"? Fun.

Or it could be such a small part that knowing exact health points would simply be an advantage in an already competitive environment, and a perk of certain attributes, skills and classes like I already said.

'Basic feedback' = rough numbers.

Not every creature needs to convey information though; like I said. Just skip over the part about class-specific info gathering though cause it sounds actually good and you are nerdraging right now.

Let's sacrifice design for the sake of number crunching!

No.

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234

I don't want to quote your entire damn post. Saving screen space.

Sapiverenus

The entire point is 'limited information is good' and you trip up because you know you want 100% information lol and to metagame the fuck out of a game no one wants to play lmao. . .
[no competition for you am I right?]

Ace1234

Oh wait here it is: "Rhythm and Pace is too vague" you think people shouldn't have to use their sense of time to figure out what their damage output is LOL

Again being annoying af, read the rest of the sentence. I said I prefer to reward theory crafting over rythm and pacing since I have to make a choice in the context of getting essential feedback for build effectiveness.

You are not even addressing the actual points being made, not gonna waste time if you have to "straw man" my arguments.

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

Ace1234

Rythm and pacing is way more rewarded in the combat system itself than through "a lack of dps feedback"

Sapiverenus

You prefer to reward metagaming stale number crunching? Damn no shit.

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