Chickenlipzz wrote: » but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better.
Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'.
Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters...
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play. Thank you for your input as always. It's always enlightening to see different perspectives on the genre.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play. Thank you for your input as always. It's always enlightening to see different perspectives on the genre. Thank you for constantly being passive aggressive, I'm sure my equivalent exchange still doesn't hold a handle to the purity of your style.
Noaani wrote: » MrPockets wrote: » Things I do NOT want: worrying about where the game stores my log files installing random 3rd party software to obtain said logs worrying more about optimizing my build/rotation instead of playing the game players gatekeeping based on meta game information. I'd like to very quickly go over this list in relation to a game having combat trackers. Your first point - log files. The server will store a log of literally everything in the game, this is kind of necessary. As to client side, even if Intrepid opted to fully support third party trackers, the game would only generate a log file for you if you commanded the client to do so. If you do not tell it to do so it will not generate that log file. To your second point, if a player wants a log file, it should be in plain text, in a simple *.txt file. This means you would be able to open up the file and read through, should you want. The idea that a log file could be in anything other than plain text is somewhat foreign to me. To your third point, this tends to be something people either concern themselves with, or dont concern themselves with. If you find you put time in to this in other games, you will put time in to it in Ashes as well - regardless of the state of trackers. To your fourth point, players gatekeeper because they can, not because of data. If a player that is a bit of a dick is abke to gatekeep in a zone, why would not having any data suddenly stop that person from doing so?
MrPockets wrote: » Things I do NOT want: worrying about where the game stores my log files installing random 3rd party software to obtain said logs worrying more about optimizing my build/rotation instead of playing the game players gatekeeping based on meta game information.
Noaani wrote: » I dont see the presence of trackers increasing the number of people that analyze the game. I mean, Excel exists.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play. Thank you for your input as always. It's always enlightening to see different perspectives on the genre. Thank you for constantly being passive aggressive, I'm sure my equivalent exchange still doesn't hold a handle to the purity of your style. You're projecting a little. I definitely don't like your opinions. I definitely don't agree with them. But disregarding them would also be foolish. You are right, a lot more people like WoW. Working out exactly why without compromising would be extremely important. Your information told me something unexpected, so I thanked you for it. I don't usually thank you or engage at all. Being passive aggressive with you is generally a waste of time. But I don't auto-discard everything you say because I disagree with it. If in that era, having more players was important and the way to judge success in the Genre (your given premise) WoW wins hands down. You say it moved the genre forward. I don't know the correlation there, but I can't dispute it either, so I'll take your word for it until someone else who might know better brings a better argument. The discussion here is about the video NiKr gave. What do you think of the design principle in that video?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play. Thank you for your input as always. It's always enlightening to see different perspectives on the genre. Thank you for constantly being passive aggressive, I'm sure my equivalent exchange still doesn't hold a handle to the purity of your style. You're projecting a little. I definitely don't like your opinions. I definitely don't agree with them. But disregarding them would also be foolish. You are right, a lot more people like WoW. Working out exactly why without compromising would be extremely important. Your information told me something unexpected, so I thanked you for it. I don't usually thank you or engage at all. Being passive aggressive with you is generally a waste of time. But I don't auto-discard everything you say because I disagree with it. If in that era, having more players was important and the way to judge success in the Genre (your given premise) WoW wins hands down. You say it moved the genre forward. I don't know the correlation there, but I can't dispute it either, so I'll take your word for it until someone else who might know better brings a better argument. The discussion here is about the video NiKr gave. What do you think of the design principle in that video? You are literarily creating fantasies in your head with your own imagination to create what you want because of your more stubborn personality. There are multiple points in WoW with its long history and the direction it lead to as well when it was bought and the effects it had. What will never stop surprising me is your desire to take words and just create things in your head over having a honest conversation. Like it is 100% talking to someone that doesn't care what people they dislike think and trying to mold discussion into something you want. The reason for our negative view points at each other comes from you btw. Just going to let you know that.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Chickenlipzz wrote: » I guess I understand the need for it in games like wow where certain fights are a dps race but agree with many here that it leads to elitism and segregation in the player base. It just tends to force a min/max mentality that creates and separates players. Not that there is anything wrong with min/maxing, but since AOC is focusing on large groups of players NEEDING each other, the less that tends to encourage separation the better. This is also a problem with the perception. In the simplest sense, the thing you need for WoW isn't even meaningfully similar to the thing you need in EQ2. So while people consider them the same thing because they CAN do the same functions, you use practically separate functions of the tracker for the two games if you are 'using the meter correctly' in EQ2. This comes up because of a deeper game design problem. When a 'copycat' studio (even a big one), looks at a genre they don't have much experience with, they copy the parts of the experience they can understand, which is often NOT the whole thing. This is partially how we got New World. There's nothing explicitly wrong with New World other than badly coded auth, it's just 'only part of what an MMO is'. That's why so many MMOs 'suck' while still being viable enough products to hold attention. They are 'unfinished games' but sometimes conceptually. The Tracker's purpose in a "Whole Game" would not be to measure anyone's DPS against anyone else's at any point. You'd almost always only measure your DPS against your own previous, but the tracker gives you all the options to see 'what external factors over the course of a long fight were affecting it'. WoW did everything better then EQ, that is why EQ died. This has nothing to do with meters... I agree that WoW did everything you can understand better than EQ. WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward. If you think eq was that good i hear Patheon is looking for more pledges though if that is the content you want to play. Thank you for your input as always. It's always enlightening to see different perspectives on the genre. Thank you for constantly being passive aggressive, I'm sure my equivalent exchange still doesn't hold a handle to the purity of your style. You're projecting a little. I definitely don't like your opinions. I definitely don't agree with them. But disregarding them would also be foolish. You are right, a lot more people like WoW. Working out exactly why without compromising would be extremely important. Your information told me something unexpected, so I thanked you for it. I don't usually thank you or engage at all. Being passive aggressive with you is generally a waste of time. But I don't auto-discard everything you say because I disagree with it. If in that era, having more players was important and the way to judge success in the Genre (your given premise) WoW wins hands down. You say it moved the genre forward. I don't know the correlation there, but I can't dispute it either, so I'll take your word for it until someone else who might know better brings a better argument. The discussion here is about the video NiKr gave. What do you think of the design principle in that video? You are literarily creating fantasies in your head with your own imagination to create what you want because of your more stubborn personality. There are multiple points in WoW with its long history and the direction it lead to as well when it was bought and the effects it had. What will never stop surprising me is your desire to take words and just create things in your head over having a honest conversation. Like it is 100% talking to someone that doesn't care what people they dislike think and trying to mold discussion into something you want. The reason for our negative view points at each other comes from you btw. Just going to let you know that. Ok, but do you have an opinion about the video? EDIT: Realized I just did it again, yes. I tried to mold the conversation into being about the video and the thing NiKr was asking about, whereas you were trying to have a conversation about how WoW is just better and that has nothing to do with meters. Point proven, so no need to engage, ignore me.
Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with. Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files? This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension. "Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?" request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power Mag7spy used the word "communicate" You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need. This is quite true, but you might need to clarify to me what the purpose of the note about 'request = demand' is. I absolutely admit that I'm a person who will try to solve problems via analysis. I will do it for/to people who aren't as good at the analysis. Some people consider this good, some bad. This is kind of MY point. If I am in a position of power to 'demand' logs so that I can work out how to run content more efficiently (mainly because I am 'elitist' and don't enjoy failing the same way repeatedly, I at least want to fail in a new way and make some progress) there's a good chance I would do it. But no one should have to worry about that outside of my guild anyway unless they very much insist on participating in content I lead. However, if the problem here is that 'someone like me has that position of power', then the problem being proposed isn't one of 'I don't want logs or a tracker', it's almost explicitly 'I don't want people like you to have power or demand things from others'. To the point of suggesting 'the game should be built differently so that the skill style you have is less effective' (to be clear I don't mind nor care about this either personally) So I'm trying to figure out, does Mag actually care about 'trackers' in and of themselves, or just 'doesn't want the game to reward me for being the way I am'? That's a valid response, surely, but it's unresolvable, tracker or not, it just goes back to the same 'toxicity and friction'. So to anyone who doesn't want Trackers, the question is open. Is it that you don't want to give me your Combat Logs, even if I promise I will never even run a parser on them and you could be SURE that I did not? The result will be the same. I will read them, do the math and check the times, and a number/strategy will happen, it will just take longer. Is the 'taking longer' part important? Or is 'me not being able to do it' important?
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with. Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files? This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension. "Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?" request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power Mag7spy used the word "communicate" You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with. Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files? This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension. "Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?"
Mag7spy wrote: » I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with.
Strevi wrote: » So many posts!! Azherae wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I'd rather people do the theory crafting with a combat log spend time and communicate with others in finding the cool builds they want to do and what they feel is effective. It will make things much more social then the alternative this guy wants to be able to be in a trade and pull up a log and go through players and mobs, dmg, skills, etc that they are fighting or working with. Since I will not be using a Combat Tracker in Ashes, does this mean you consider it better for me to just ask everyone I group with for meaningful content to send me their Combat Log files? This is a serious question with no specific underlying motive nor leadup other than the obvious extension. "Do you think it is okay to have a culture where people request Combat Log files from each other in this way?" request = demand, usually used by people who are in a position of power Mag7spy used the word "communicate" You both describe the same thing but putting the weight on different aspect, he on the social interaction, you on obtaining the information you need. This is quite true, but you might need to clarify to me what the purpose of the note about 'request = demand' is. I absolutely admit that I'm a person who will try to solve problems via analysis. I will do it for/to people who aren't as good at the analysis. Some people consider this good, some bad. This is kind of MY point. If I am in a position of power to 'demand' logs so that I can work out how to run content more efficiently (mainly because I am 'elitist' and don't enjoy failing the same way repeatedly, I at least want to fail in a new way and make some progress) there's a good chance I would do it. But no one should have to worry about that outside of my guild anyway unless they very much insist on participating in content I lead. However, if the problem here is that 'someone like me has that position of power', then the problem being proposed isn't one of 'I don't want logs or a tracker', it's almost explicitly 'I don't want people like you to have power or demand things from others'. To the point of suggesting 'the game should be built differently so that the skill style you have is less effective' (to be clear I don't mind nor care about this either personally) So I'm trying to figure out, does Mag actually care about 'trackers' in and of themselves, or just 'doesn't want the game to reward me for being the way I am'? That's a valid response, surely, but it's unresolvable, tracker or not, it just goes back to the same 'toxicity and friction'. So to anyone who doesn't want Trackers, the question is open. Is it that you don't want to give me your Combat Logs, even if I promise I will never even run a parser on them and you could be SURE that I did not? The result will be the same. I will read them, do the math and check the times, and a number/strategy will happen, it will just take longer. Is the 'taking longer' part important? Or is 'me not being able to do it' important? I am trying to decide which side would be a nicer community for AoC: those who use trackers or those who don't. That is more important for me than obtaining the legendary materials. But of course I want those legendary materials too. So if you say you demand logs from people, it makes me feel like you are the type of person who expects obedience. You take the logs, maybe you say a "thank you" and then that's it. If people who use trackers want to be in control and they are more likely to take other people's freedom away, is that a good community? I don't understand if there is a relationship or not. All I know is that the game tries to bring the community together and Steven for some reason decided against trackers. Maybe his decision is not related to community cohesion but to other aspects.
Mag7spy wrote: » WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves
Strevi wrote: » I am trying to decide which side would be a nicer community for AoC: those who use trackers or those who don't.
Mag7spy wrote: » A handful are trying to push for people to view anyone's logs under the guise of being in the same guild.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves By this logic, McDonalds is the best restaurant in the world.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » A handful are trying to push for people to view anyone's logs under the guise of being in the same guild. Actually, that is technically not true. If there is a guild combat tracker, it wouldn't be viewing other players logs - it would be creating a log for individual guild groups and raids. Rather than it being a case of others looking at your log, it would be a case of you contributing data to the guilds log. This seems like a small difference, but when you consider what a log contains in most games (literally everything, including all conversations), sharing logs is something that I would never want to see happen.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » A handful are trying to push for people to view anyone's logs under the guise of being in the same guild. Actually, that is technically not true.
