DPS Meter Megathread

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Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

Right. You always think someone is talking about what you're talking about and nothing else. So you can 'blow them out of the water' instead of it being about communication.

All your vain attempts to hide your true motivations didn't work. Transparent.

As if all you can see is what you want to talk about --> nope! You see everything else you just don't want to talk about anything but what you feel you can 'win' in an argument.

Transparent.

Projecting. If you were so interested in communicating you would actually know what my intentions are, but you don't, you never bother to find out through actually addressing the points and having a normal discussion. The only obstacle in the communication is the wrenches that you throw in to try to make someone else sound dumb rather than understand their perspective and come to a clear conclusion. In turn, you self-sabotage yourself because it just makes nobody interest in talking to you to bother to try to understand where you are coming from.

Sapiverenus

Who cares about your intentions; try giving a shit about anyone else's lmao

Sapiverenus

yall need a communication workshop or something

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus
You do as you said youself

All your vain attempts to hide your true motivations didn't work. Transparent.

because you brought them up as a way to deflect having to actually address the points being made. If you truly dont care about them then address the points instead of thinking of ways to avoid doing so.

try giving a shit about anyone else's lmao

By taking the time to talk about it qualifies as caring. If the other person isnt interested in having a convo then I would choose to not care- so it is ultimately in your hands if want me to care so badly as you say.

Aerlana

i didnt spoke about Xp on use vs PvX... (maybe in your wet dreams?)
XP on use : allow to lvl up with no risk = contrary to risk vs reward logic.
Also, Xp on use : never found it so fun and interesting, just a brainless spam being often more efficient than playing the game.
And i say that while one of my 3 favourite pen&paper RPG system is the system "basic" ... but i prefer the classic "level" system.

And for the smashing button : find one game where it is fun... they are called "versus fighting" ... a specific genre... (and even there, it is not really a brainless smashing as what you did defend... )
Oh yes i saw it elsewhere... horsetaming on BDO... yep... totally not interesting way to do...

But hey, see i try to respond to your close mind... while i still wait answers to my questions, you never answered to once...

"put more work on game, it will be better" sure... but ... your ideas are not about "more work on the game" but "transform the game project into another game project" ... Nothing about "more/less" work...

Lets return to this topic's subject now... you looooove to change convo right?
Your choices of "hostile architecture" design exist in other games... does it avoid people to gather datas ? no... people will try to gather it, thru datamine, doing 1000 5000 or more time the exact same thing to get the rates. accumulate lot and lot information to retro-engeneer.
And the funniest thing, you consider that such behaviour... "nerd" behaviour is bad for many reason including it is better to have people communicate... how blind you are thinking they don't communicate... 18 years in MMORPGs, and if there were a community i saw people communicate a lot... it was those one... far more than others. And it was for a simple reason : they had thing to say, informations to share, after spending time gathering them, helped with some tools...

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234
I addressed them with the previous paragraph. Do you really not understand what someone is communicating to you?

For any topic I say several things and you don't see it as communication you see it as some Task handed to me to destroy you and if I fail to do so then I've failed.. the argument?

No one gives a shit about some arcane and arbitrary gamified discussion.

and no I'm not talking about 'caring' and don't open up the file in your brain with all your empathy exposition.

You just aren't good at communicating and have rigid responses and behavior, one of them being your 'argue mode'. That's all I was saying.

and im not calling you a robot

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves

By this logic, McDonalds is the best restaurant in the world.

I'm not talking about anything else, I'm talking about EQ and WoW. Trying to compare food makes no sense.

If numbers speak for themself, then numbers speak for themself.

If WoW is the beat because of numbers, McDonalfs is the best because of numbers.

If you actually believe this, then I can see why you wouldn't want a tracker.

You are not trust worthy, the fact you are trying to say food is the same as a game is pretty stupid. As usual you are trying to manipulate information to suit you.

I could easily go over the logistics on the difference but I'm not going to do that for your terrible take. You won't view what anyone else will, or even attempt to think of a game without trackers being useful. All you will do is try to push trackers, your display picture is a meme btw.

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

You just aren't good at communicating and have rigid responses and behavior, one of them being your 'argue mode'. That's all I was saying.

I mean so what? Are you that sensitive that your social behavior gets reduced to insults and misrepresentation because you identified a "mode" someone entered, in your mind, or because you got triggered by a flaw they have?

Reacting that way is something that YOU'RE not good at, yet the difference is that despite that I still can have a normal conversation without immediately getting triggered and insulting you.

I get to the root of the topic so if that requires you having to reformulate your thoughts and wording to help me understand your intent, that is not "bad communication" on my part, its on you for expecting me to read your mind. If you want to explain something I will listen, as long as you listen to my explanation and be constructive and solution seeking. Thats all there is too it, its child level concepts.

I addressed them with the previous paragraph. Do you really not understand what someone is communicating to you?

Thats the point, you think you did but you actually took a lot of what I said out of context starting from your intial response and throughout the entire conversation. I mean talk about "bad at communication" you should be getting triggered by yourself not by me. I am willing to ask questions to see what someone is implying, you dont give the same courtesy once you unnessecarily hit your trigger point. You literally came out of the gate responding to me with your annoying remarks like "..get real/LOL/" and other non-productive communication methods like adding stuff I didnt even say or immediately taking stuff out of context and insulting without asking for clarification. How about you improve your communication first before asking someone else to respond to your bad faith attempts with good faith ones.

Aerlana

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are not trust worthy, the fact you are trying to say food is the same as a game is pretty stupid. As usual you are trying to manipulate information to suit you.

I could easily go over the logistics on the difference but I'm not going to do that for your terrible take. You won't view what anyone else will, or even attempt to think of a game without trackers being useful. All you will do is try to push trackers, your display picture is a meme btw.

ok, we could go on movies so... with Jurassic world being better than jurassic park. most marvel movies better than the old star wars trilogy (or even the "prelogy") ... Or Avatar being the best movie of the history... while James Cameron himself admits the movie to be not so good.

Oh no, it is not needed, we will stay in video game in fact. because we can watch video game with video games based on their sales right ?
Fifa, which just change the roster each year, is a better franchise than AC so.
And what about nintendog being in front of halflife franchise ? maybe in fact people don't care HL3

And seeing thing this way, no more need to have debate about the best Final Fantasy... VI > IV > VII > XV (no one laugh about XV being the 4th best FF ! )

Oh, but i know, you will come and say that we can watch at numbers only between video games of the same genre... right ?
The funny thing, a simple way to take the crown from blizzard would probably just ... to see gamefreaks doing a mmorpg, We would see fast insane sales, enough to dwarf the current most sold MMORPG...

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

I could easily go over the logistics on the difference but I'm not going to do that for your terrible take.

No you couldn't.

If you could, you would. You are so dsperate to prove me wrong, if you had anything to actually facilitate that with, you'd jump all over it.

You won't view what anyone else will, or even attempt to think of a game without trackers being useful.

Literally any activity in the world can see people improve by the introduction of objective data, and tools to analyze that data.

Everything from baking a cake to marketing a business, to playing basketball, to designing a car, to reading a book. All of it can be improved via analysis of objective data.

In an MMO, that objective data is analyzed via a combat tracker.

Your assertion that an MMO could be the only activity in the world where this is not the case is just wrong. This is why you have made that assertion, but not backed it up with any reasoning or suggestions. You know it is a false assertion - you just spew it again and again in hopes that someone - anyone - will believe you.

I mean, if you gave me an example of an MMO where a tracker wouldn't be of value (note; of value to me, not of value in some limited manner that you wish to define) then I absolutely will believe you.

Unlike you, it would seem I am not going to make myself look like a fool by denying something placed right in front of my face. I would rather simply admit that I was wrong and explore this new thing that I hadn't considered.

Problem is, as I said, you cant place that idea in front of me, and if you could, you would.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

i didnt spoke about Xp on use vs PvX... (maybe in your wet dreams?)
XP on use : allow to lvl up with no risk = contrary to risk vs reward logic.
Also, Xp on use : never found it so fun and interesting, just a brainless spam being often more efficient than playing the game.
And i say that while one of my 3 favourite pen&paper RPG system is the system "basic" ... but i prefer the classic "level" system.

"I didn't say. . ." you said it was a PvX game and my ideas would diminish the PvP side of things; XP on Use was part of the remedy I suggest. What are you twisting.

Given it could be half-XP when not hitting something, level power scaling could be low, and various combat skills could go unprogressed; there are very good ways to execute it.

XP on Kill can still exist and this in combination with 'on-use' can make PvE == PvP dueling while exceeding random tree whacking. PvErs can still whack trees and swing at the air, or cast spells to progress. Depends on the class.

Combat is required for defensive and weapon skill progression and that could be a rather slow process similar to Leveling.

This should address your concern about progression efficiency. Unless there's more?

"Risk vs Reward" This allows PvPers to kill and still level. They get a reward. You still get gear, progress the area, improve the node, et cetera through PvE.
The entire "PvE Pressures you" is a Risk and beating them is the Reward and nets you Rewards such as loot or simply space to do other stuff.

And for the smashing button : find one game where it is fun... they are called "versus fighting" ... a specific genre... (and even there, it is not really a brainless smashing as what you did defend... )
Oh yes i saw it elsewhere... horsetaming on BDO... yep... totally not interesting way to do...

But hey, see i try to respond to your close mind... while i still wait answers to my questions, you never answered to once...

I gave an example of players that smash buttons all the time. It's appealing to certain people. You even compared it to track & field. . . which is rather popular.

You're just arguing preferences and don't want any class to have that kind of tailored feel to it.

There are still 8x8x4 classes. For most classes any kind of button spam can be minimal or generally non-existant. It doesn't impede anyone and if anything it simply offends you for trying to appeal to those you don't like and aren't like you. Which is Ironic; Projection is pretty common I guess!

I think Fighter in particular should probably get the Button Spam that is appealing to more physical people. Maybe that is why you brought up the Fighter genre? lmao
Tank could get some limited Spam. Rogue and Ranger can get some limited Spam.
Effort and Skill should be rewarded though, no? And they are physical classes, no?

Fighter sub-specs could also get spam. Thus Fighter sub-Fighter is built around Effort, which is entirely thematic and there are still 49 other class combinations. The 4 augments could have a button spam option that rewards effort and even timing.

Effort was a lot more nuanced idea than you care to bring up right now, but to put it short: it can reward timing as well. Build up effort in 1 second and spend on moving or attacking? It could be elaborated upon and given more nuance by "designing minds".

As for the last paragraph:
If you're talking about "what's a good game to you" then I already answered you just didn't like it LMAO.

"put more work on game, it will be better" sure... but ... your ideas are not about "more work on the game" but "transform the game project into another game project" ... Nothing about "more/less" work...

If you put in the work you would realize that crafting custom experiences and depth while also handling all 'issues' that pop up requires more work not less.

You say, "On Use XP will make it easier to level by spamming while standing in some spot than actually doing stuff". Which is a problem you could have solved yourself in your own post if you "did the work" so clearly you don't know much about the task of game design.
Honestly. All you've done is try and make it personal without responding to anything with any effort beyond your passive opinion. You have no will to help design or develop something. That makes what you say unconstructive, unproductive.

This shit is work (fun, relatively low difficulty, but still requiring something put into it rather than complete passivity)
so stop acting like there isn't a minimum input.

Lets return to this topic's subject now... you looooove to change convo right?
Your choices of chaotic design exist in other games... does it avoid people to gather datas ? no... people will try to gather it, thru datamine, doing 1000 5000 or more time the exact same thing to get the rates. accumulate lot and lot information to retro-engeneer.
And the funniest thing, you consider that such behaviour... "nerd" behaviour is bad for many reason including it is better to have people communicate... how blind you are thinking they don't communicate... 18 years in MMORPGs, and if there were a community i saw people communicate a lot... it was those one... far more than others. And it was for a simple reason : they had thing to say, informations to share, after spending time gathering them, helped with some tools...

I think it's better to play the game and enjoy it rather than have something so static and old that it's basically 'complete' yet the crust that clings to it (players) don't know it yet. Then they resist any dynamic sort of gameplay that would keep the game 'fresh' for a very long time, because? Because their encyclopedia would lose its importance? lol?

We've talked about communication already. The Communication I've mentioned recently is between people on a forum. Lmao.

The communication in-game I'd like to be useful in the short-term. Tactical, dynamic, strategic talk for dynamic and new problems. Always fresh; fresh for longer at least. Not simply encyclopedic or attempts to figure out hidden systems (which for some reason are arbitrary!).

So what's your issue with that? Too social?

Noaani

@akabear

Noaani wrote: »

It isnt uncommon for me to just go about daily life, come back to the forums and see 30+ new posts in this thread.

It's happened twice over the last few days.

Left the forums for 3 hours, came back and there were 23 new posts in this thread.

Now, admittedly, they were all from just 4 posters, but still...

Ludullu

Aerlana wrote: »

The funny thing, a simple way to take the crown from blizzard would probably just ... to see gamefreaks doing a mmorpg, We would see fast insane sales, enough to dwarf the current most sold MMORPG...

If they released pokemon mmo, I'd forget about ashes even if the mmo was trash

too much of a fanboy not to

Aerlana

Sapiverenus wrote: »

So what's your issue with that? Too social?

Oh, i am in favor in always more social in MMORPG, this is what i support this game, but also another one with this same element as base

And i also, on the message you answered, about communication on forum... For me it is part of the communication the game has to creates

Sapiverenus

Ace1234 wrote: »

@Sapiverenus

You just aren't good at communicating and have rigid responses and behavior, one of them being your 'argue mode'. That's all I was saying.

I mean so what? Are you that sensitive that your social behavior gets reduced to insults and misrepresentation because you identified a "mode" someone entered, in your mind, or because you got triggered by a flaw they have?

Reacting that way is something that YOU'RE not good at, yet the difference is that despite that I still can have a normal conversation without immediately getting triggered and insulting you.

I get to the root of the topic so if that requires you having to reformulate your thoughts and wording to help me understand your intent, that is not "bad communication" on my part, its on you for expecting me to read your mind. If you want to explain something I will listen, as long as you listen to my explanation and be constructive and solution seeking. Thats all there is too it, its child level concepts.

I addressed them with the previous paragraph. Do you really not understand what someone is communicating to you?

Thats the point, you think you did but you actually took a lot of what I said out of context starting from your intial response and throughout the entire conversation. I mean talk about "bad at communication" you should be getting triggered by yourself not by me. I am willing to ask questions to see what someone is implying, you dont give the same courtesy once you unnessecarily hit your trigger point.

You are asking some very good questions here.

Now hopefully you will understand me now when I say I don't want to waste my time with a 'solution' I've shat on to death.
You didn't get to the root of the topic and it will always be extremely slow talking to you.

I assumed you were reading through the pages before your first post (or first one in a while) with your post saying "It seems the topic/ issue is. . . my solution is. . ." a few pages back.
Given it was a repeat of the usual solutions, and usual issues, and you did not wish to cognize but instead throw out what I was saying
(demanding I "argue more, argue better" because you think I'm required to change your thinly veiled extremely stubborn and willful mind that is not changed by communication but instead a hobby of argumentation for you)
it seems you didn't want to engage with anything I had to say in the first place.

Thus, as soon as you try and push for the discussion to be railroaded according to your desired restrictions on what's relevant, what is stated and what is not (according to you), according to your desired conception of the conversation, based on an abstract yearning of yours, it is clear you are not attempting to communicate but railroad "for the win" or whatever bullshit.

So no, I try and make it simple to convey my intent and issues with something and suggest new direction while you are trying to hold court.

Sapiverenus

@Aerlana
I really do not think he or anyone is saying Sales = Good.
But that popularity exists for a reason. McDonalds for instance is convenient and has some cheap options, while looking cartoony (lmao) thus approachable I guess. Vanilla WoW had some convenience, wasn't really cheaper, and was cartoony.
MMOs are never as convenient as other genres though, and lock players from anything mildly interesting for hundreds of hours. Old MMOs were interesting simply from how punishing they were and how impactful each individual everything was. Similar to real life I guess.

It's difficult to make a deeper comparison given Mag doesn't seem to believe Sales = Good; just that popularity exists for a reason. Maybe it's tangential? There were other more 'pressing' issues at hand.

That's my take and I bet Mag agrees.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

So what's your issue with that? Too social?

Oh, i am in favor in always more social in MMORPG, this is what i support this game, but also another one with this same element as base

And i also, on the message you answered, about communication on forum... For me it is part of the communication the game has to creates

But a more tactical, strategic, dynamic game with PvE pressures increases communication and you're still against it?
Clearly you have other much higher priorities than anything you or I've mentioned already so what are they?

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

Given it was a repeat of the usual solutions, and usual issues, and you did not wish to cognize but instead throw out what I was saying
(demanding I "argue more, argue better" because you think I'm required to change your thinly veiled extremely stubborn and willful mind that is not changed by communication but instead a hobby of argumentation for you)
it seems you didn't want to engage with anything I had to say in the first place.

Wait so you are just mad because I recommended something that may have been addressed 30 pages before I suggested it? I havent kept up with this thread. Thats literally why I stated what I did at the beginning. How can you recognize that yet still act like im dismissing some post I never even saw.

it seems you didn't want to engage with anything I had to say in the first place.

Go back and read it. You responded to me first. I Hadn't even addressed you, there's no way could could sanely come to that conclusion. The only point I stopped engaging was when you reduced the conversation to insults and misrepresentation...and even then I still engaged for the most part. I literally spent the first half of the conversation trying to get YOU to engage the actual points being made and you refused, so thats bullcrap to say I was the dismissive one. The only thing I was dismissive of at all was the points you made that were based on out of context/misrepresentations of what I said. I always address line by line each point that is used against mine, fully engaging, unless the other person becomes dismissive and uninterested in what I am trying to say.

because you think I'm required to change your thinly veiled extremely stubborn and willful mind that is not changed by communication but instead a hobby of argumentation for you)

Again, the only matter at hand is whether you can understand the other persons perspective and evaluate its legitmacy. If me being bent on evaluating something's legitamacy is an issue to you then it should only be because its illegitimate, or because you assume that it is and dont want to understand why I think its not. It only would become a "game" if you aren't properly getting your perspective across, to where I am addressing something you don't mean- in which case It certainly would not be my fault when I give more than enough opportunity to find the intent to what is being said, until you get impatient or triggered and change the topic unecessarily.

don't want to waste my time with a 'solution' I've shat on to death.

If you did I didnt read it, and even if I did that doesn't invalidate the newly proposed points I made in the topic that should be addressed instead of dismissed.

You didn't get to the root of the topic

If I can I do, if I don't I am trying to. My initial post for the topic I introduced, was. It might not always happen immediately, but given time it will happen as long as I am not the only one engaging until the end.

it will always be extremely slow talking to you.

Idgaf. Don't come to a forum to seek collaborative problem solving/community support if you cant take the time to make it happen. At least not if you want me on board. My judgement of true and false doesn't have a timer on it.

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234
Here is your original post

You respond to Mag with another, where you say "organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy"
yet don't understand the issue with DPS numbers and how that reveals enemy resistances, health pool, et cetera.

Others, in particular Mag7spy, tried to make that clear to you.

Afterwards, seeing as the point had already been explained since you started posting and before you started posting, I assumed you'd have some update to your grasp of the situation and so I didn't think there was any need to harp on about something well-spoken about.

Instead you backtracked and started defending your original position because you thought I misrepresented your original point of view while saying shit like

"Had you taken the time to read that I don't support revealing enemy build details ahead of time, you would realize that I want skill to be rewarded and that being able to measure your own stats can be rewarding skill"

Because I want information to be limited to class or not exist in a clear form; thought I never said anything about stats lol it was your fixation though.

AND YOU DO ALL OF THIS instead of talking to Mag7spy about databasing the game because that would be too simple I guess. Because you'd rather argue with me about stats because THE POINT OF YOU TYPING IS TO ARGUE WITHOUT ANY PRODUCTIVE RESULT IN MIND.

YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT A GOOD GAME BEING MADE.

Then, when I basically say a sense of time and sense of individual damage instances should be rewarded instead of gone unrewarded by the existence of a tracker:::::

"Rythm and pace is too vague and therefore would detract from the skill of theory crafting because of a lack of clear numerical feedback. I prefer to reward theory crafting skill over "rythm and pacing" if I have to make that choice."

WHO IS MAKING A CHOICE? IF YOU'RE GOOD AT BOTH YOU GET MORE. IF YOU'RE GOOD AT ONE YOU GET SOMETHING.

Everything you say is just to play an argument mini-game, just like theorycrafting is your mini-game all else be damned and people with valuable input be Ignored (Mag). EDIT: I may have misremembered other's conversation a bit.

"Stop making annoying comments acting like I dont know what Im talking about, we've been over this before. I will gladly explain my stance so I don't need you to act like I just have no reasoning behind what I am saying. "

The only reason you're arguing btw. To sound like you know what you're talking about.

"Because you are acting like I think all of this info should just be revealed, which I am not sure how you could have possibly gathered that from actually reading the few paragraphs I posted today."

I'll just keep it clean by reiterating: Exact DPS reveals enemy HP and Resistances. It is conducive to building a database of the game as well.
And you don't like variability in mobs or much of anything so that database can be built (looking at your attempt to misrepresent me to convey what you want; A+ on conveying you hate variables "RNG RNG RNG").

Done and doner.

EDIT: I guess I am the only one to harp on the issue of databasing since you've started posting in this thread 5 or so pages back. Not sure.

Sapiverenus

You will always theorycraft a way to get what you want.

But the message is clear: Fuck off. Get good or get left behind. Skill and Growth through Playing > 999 hours of backroom tooltip researching.

and exact numbers build databases

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