DPS Meter Megathread

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Aerlana

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Clearly you have other much higher priorities than anything you or I've mentioned already so what are they?

this is where you do an error... the same from the begining... you do claims, you define yourself why people says this or that but in the end...

I spent most of my time to do test, experiments, share with people, debate about what is best, try again, adapt tactic, see results, debate, rince & repeat.

and your will to just "play, train, practice, and no analysis" would feel boring for me, and also remove most of communication with teammate... This is maybe what you like in video game, just play it... Not me, the more i play a game, the more i enjoy dissect it, and the more i dissect, the more i socialize with others, and so, get more fun. Getting into a virtuous circle.

Also, add any variability you want to ennemies... it won't avoid the database to exist. Instead of 1 000 000 life, the boss will have between 900k and 1,1m...
And because of this RNG in boss stats, you can't make real tough fight... just longer to figure out strategy maybe, but easier to apply it after... And the strategy will include "proc the fight until low life boss" ... yay funny.

And RNG in informatic is not even pure RNG, always sit on other factual element like the miliseconds when the roll is done for example. So you just open another thing to study, dissect, do test about.

Clearly, the kind of game design (still wait to have a game name...) is not the kind i love. And i doubt this "hostile design" can really exist to the point people will "just play"... i see 2 endings for this : they get thru, and still manage to understand, just longer. Or it is so chaotic and uninteresting to understand that those people will leave, and will remain only "simple enjoyers" who don't care about the understanding, and just use their controller.

And about Mag7spy sillyness around "a game is better because more sale" :

Mag7spy wrote: »

WoW is a better game, numbers speak for themselves back then (during that time) and pushed the mmorpg genre forward.

This is exactly what he is saying... numbers speak for themselves. more sale for wow than EQ, so wow better than EQ...

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Clearly you have other much higher priorities than anything you or I've mentioned already so what are they?

this is where you do an error... the same from the begining... you do claims, you define yourself why people says this or that but in the end...

I spent most of my time to do test, experiments, share with people, debate about what is best, try again, adapt tactic, see results, debate, rince & repeat.

and your will to just "play, train, practice, and no analysis" would feel boring for me, and also remove most of communication with teammate... This is maybe what you like in video game, just play it... Not me, the more i play a game, the more i enjoy dissect it, and the more i dissect, the more i socialize with others, and so, get more fun. Getting into a virtuous circle.

You keep saying I make errors but you're rather passive and secretive. l o l
or disassociated.

You are saying that you want more communication and analysis and that is fine. I'd rather there be more short-term analysis from dynamic content though. More about organization, direction, plan of action.
This is also mid to long term planning, strategizing, et cetera so your objection makes no sense

Are you saying it's too difficult to analyze dynamic and real-time things?
I gave an example elsewhere of some possible situation where "stone golems" invade the mine to eat Iron or whatnot.
And someone trying to get coordination going and find those that can help deal with the problem.

It might not be interesting to you since the answer is obvious of what to do about it? ?
? ? ?

but I do not see any solutions coming out of you. Just "min max the numbers".
That is the most game you can imagine?

I'd like there to be more action, strategy, tactics, and nuance so there's something to communicate; "map control" concerns; "if we do X then Y will attack" discussions; "their defenses seem to be. . . terrain looks like. . . so we should. . . .et cetera."

How does that not apply to what you're saying?

Or does it simply boil down to passivity, quest for omniscience, and preferences that lean into those? lmao

Fuckin blue mana bullshit

make room for green and red

Also, add any variability you want to ennemies... it won't avoid the database to exist. Instead of 1 000 000 life, the boss will have between 900k and 1,1m...
And because of this RNG in boss stats, you can't make real tough fight... just longer to figure out strategy maybe, but easier to apply it after... And the strategy will include "proc the fight until low life boss" ... yay funny.

It simply obfuscates feedback from Time to Kill, their damage output; and requires more Risk Management. Risk Management.
Think about how actual high level finance and business works -> more analysis than an MMO lmao.

Truly Random is easiest to analyze; complex behavior is not. Complex behavior is how groups wipe. Variability between similar mobs in general is great; slightly unique/ specific abilities that usually fit their slightly altered/ unique visage is great. Mobs having something unexpected is just fine and good as well.

Complex but organic/ intuitive variables once you know them is great. You don't need precise values to know something exists though. You don't need to know everything under the hood either.

It makes for an interesting world and complicates basic basic data such as Time to Kill.

And RNG in informatic is not even pure RNG, always sit on other factual element like the miliseconds when the roll is done for example. So you just open another thing to study, dissect, do test about.

Completely depends on how low effort the function is. It can be entirely opaque with strange behavior that can't be dissected by casual 'data analysts' which seems to be your actual concern lol.

Clearly, the kind of game design (still wait to have a game name...) is not the kind i love. And i doubt this "hostile design" can really exist to the point people will "just play"... i see 2 endings for this : they get thru, and still manage to understand, just longer. Or it is so chaotic and uninteresting to understand that those people will leave, and will remain only "simple enjoyers" who don't care about the understanding, and just use their controller.

The hostility is towards casual data analysts that want it to be very easy for them to analyze everything and have complete information with numerical accuracy and bar graphs and out-compete everyone with this information. lol.
That's it.
Fun for anyone else.

You keep trying to characterize Ashes of Creation as your new game (to metagame) but nothing about its premise suggests this.

My suggestions and 'wants' are more in line with the basic premise of AoC than yours most of the time.

It's a hybrid combat system. You don't see (edit: player) mana or HP. It's open world with Events triggered, some civ building, players spread out and competing civ vs civ [map control anyone?], groups will be required for a lot of open world content, resources and resource management is a big deal, players are being put into leadership roles in a Civ Builder, players create the best gear and have a chance to loot gear during resource competition, gathering triggers PvE Sieges/ Pressure, Progressing triggers Sieges/ Pressure, so on and so forth.

Everything you say is extremely disassociated from reality. Are you sure you know what game is being made?

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

You respond to Mag with another, where you say "organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy"
yet don't understand the issue with DPS numbers and how that reveals enemy resistances, health pool, et cetera.

Others, in particular Mag7spy, tried to make that clear to you.

Afterwards, seeing as the point had already been explained since you started posting and before you started posting, I assumed you'd have some update to your grasp of the situation and so I didn't think there was any need to harp on about something well-spoken about.

Ahhhh, I see, the issue is that I hadn't fully comprehended what you are saying Mag had posted. You had assumed that I read Mags response and dismissed that point that the dps could be used to reverse engineer the enemy data. I didn't catch that part. So because I didnt address
that you based further points on that, of which it came across as me being dismissive of said points, even though I never made that original connection, so I thought you were misrepresenting me.

THE POINT OF YOU TYPING IS TO ARGUE WITHOUT ANY PRODUCTIVE RESULT IN MIND.

No no, thats a common take people have about me. Its just the result of this exact situation that tends to happen when assumptions are made, just because I am willing to take the conversation so far it is thought to be for "alternative motivations", but 99% of the time its just caused by an early miscommunication is all. Like I said I hadn't put much thought into it other than my initial response- so I didn't really consider the fact that the dps could be used to reverse engineer the enemy data, which I wouldn't necessarily like in a competitive setting.

Instead you backtracked and started defending your original position

No backtracking, just wrong assumptions from the miscommunication.

AND YOU DO ALL OF THIS instead of talking to Mag7spy about databasing the game because that would be too simple I guess. Because you'd rather argue with me about stats because THE POINT OF YOU TYPING IS TO ARGUE WITHOUT ANY PRODUCTIVE RESULT IN MIND.

No, I just didnt fully read his post at the time before re-entering the convo later on. Would have ended right there (or at least shifted in another direction potentially after some thought).

YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT A GOOD GAME BEING MADE.

Yes I do, hense the problem solving appoach I take.
It just comes across like that when dumb stuff like that happens.

And you don't like variability in mobs or much of anything so that database can be built (looking at your attempt to misrepresent me to convey what you want; A+ on conveying you hate variables "RNG RNG RNG").

The rng was about having not enough build feedback, discouraging good theory crafting and builds being boiled down to rng because of the lack of feedback. In a vaum dps is good info to have. In a multiplayer competitve setting where it can be used to reverse engineer enemy data to give a player advantage againat thise who want to organically uncover that info I think is an unfortunate and unhealthy downside to having a feature like that. I do like the variability of mobs and gameplay, I just like being able to optimize things solely on my end of that experience, but without trivializing the challenge. This could be more doable in a single player game where you could choose to do this without the player factor of those who want to exploit in that sense.
So yes I understand now. Really the main issues are what the more recent discussion has been about as far as whether that will happen anyway regardless of the approach intrepid takes.

Rythm and pace is too vague and therefore would detract from the skill of theory crafting because of a lack of clear numerical feedback. I prefer to reward theory crafting skill over "rythm and pacing" if I have to make that choice."

WHO IS MAKING A CHOICE? IF YOU'RE GOOD AT BOTH YOU GET MORE. IF YOU'RE GOOD AT ONE YOU GET SOMETHING.

Because the choice would be having more of one (exact data) vs more of the other (less data more feeling)- the point of including or not including exact dps feedback presents this choice hense my answer. But I would not neccessarily still hold this opinion if it means sacrificing the strategy of organic enemy info acqusition.

-It should have been fairly obvious that I had missed that point- when I was going on about wanting to keep enemy info hidden. You need to delay your nervous breakdowns until you are sure that someone is just trying to be avoidant. That is not me so stop doing that, else we will unnecesarily continue to relive this in an attempt to clear it up. It would have been a lot simpler to take this approach from the beginning.

I think having a simple way to conveniently measure dps in a vacuum without enemy influence would be good for players like myself who dont feel like calculating everything manually while not making enemy tracking a thing, such as the training ground dummy I suggested.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You respond to Mag with another, where you say "organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy"
yet don't understand the issue with DPS numbers and how that reveals enemy resistances, health pool, et cetera.

The problem is, a tracker cant do this.

Like you, Mag is arguing from a position of not knowing how trackers actually work.

Sapiverenus

@Aerlana
Well I haven't been reading the convo so I'll drop it.

But many old MMOs surely waste people's time and are dogshit lmao; that's at least a significant point. Some fast-food is just good and not over-priced. The hashbrowns are good. Breakfast burrito with hashbrowns in it, no meat, is good.

Unless we're trying to make a vegan MMO?

Vegetarian btw

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234

I was a bit off about Mag clearing things up.

Why calculate anything.

That part of a game mostly takes care of itself unless everything is arbitrary, such as WoW gear upgrades that require a tooltip to look at numbers rather than common sense like 'Sharpness', 'Hardness', 'Durability' which can have qualitative descriptions (tiers) and results tried out on appropriate objects.
Blunt vs Rock for instance. Sharp vs Rope. Pierce vs Wood? Then look at result -> look at how far the weapon is in the object or Press E[xamine] to check after a small delay.

So Training Dummies still work but numbers are not fun. They're not good design. People calculate all the time but they decipher experience and use such 'informal' measures, and that's fun.
Sword too stiff? Brittle. Shatters. Too flexible? Bends when trying to parry or block.

More depth and GAINS in reality than numbers. It is fun to adapt and improve at something that carries over to reality better than just tooltip crunching.

tl;dr Estimating the quantitative from the qualitative is more fun; because qualitatives are more interesting and lend themself to elaborations of the game.

EDIT:
The encyclopedic side of the game could be a lot more interesting.
In real life you have material scientists trying to invent alloys and methods of creating alloys; using cheaply sourced materials.
Something like tungsten is extremely difficult to work with but one of the strongest pure metals there are (or is the strongest).
Usually there are natural obstacles to using the best, they still degrade, might not be fit for you, and it can heavily depend on the Artisan that created it "Ah BigDick makes the best Swords dude! Top notch" or "Damn he messed up big time. Hit or miss weaponsmith."

Qualitative

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus
It can if you are just doing trial and error and wanting the more experiential route, but some people like to theory craft in their head rather than test everything, in which case its a lot more convenient to get immediate points of comparison rather than manually calculating or by going to compare in a more tedious way by killing things. It also lets you isolate opimizing your build aspect, rather than introducing other combat variables that annoyingly get in the way when you are trying to optimize.

Theory crafting is a skill, and should be rewarded as much if not more than experiential optimization, providing it doesn't take away prioritized gameplay aspects. The design should account for it to make it way less efficient (through more complexity) to just endlessley go through calculations of different build combinations to optimize that way- that trial and error approach will happen regardless in any system where builds have an effect, because its possible to do. But if they make it less efficient it would encourage more skill based approaches of which a tool could support through added convenience of comparison, while still prioritizing the skill elements.

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234
The strengths of weaknesses of something should be obvious and no theorycrafting required.
You can only have the game you are asking for by throwing in as much arbitrary BS as is possible.
Sword is sharp. This one good, this one bad. Hammer beat rock.
simple

so what are you even talking about

Sapiverenus

Theorycraft a new game since that seems to be the direction you're heading lol

sord sharp. hamer hurt. ez

Ace1234

@Sapiverenus

The strengths of weaknesses of something should be obvious and no theorycrafting required.
You can only have the game you are asking for by throwing in as much arbitrary BS as is possible.
Sword is sharp. This one good, this one bad. Hammer beat rock.
simple

Yea but the whole point of a theory crafting process is having a system complex enough that which choice combinations leads to the above result, isnt immediately obvious, until you take the time to figure it out which is enjoyable to some and takes skill if designed right.

Sapiverenus

Instead of creating something complex or arbitrary I'd rather have the people already dealing with something complex and sometimes arbitrary [coding & design] figure out how to get qualitative results rather than Data Structure results.

Give me an example of something complex that requires theorycrafting, that isn't arbitrary.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Theorycraft a new game since that seems to be the direction you're heading lol

sord sharp. hamer hurt. ez

I'm still working on the assumption that you are totally unaware that this general mentality is exactly how many people play MMO's, regardless of trackers.

As with any activity, you can play an MMO at the absolute base level. "Sord sharp, hamer hurt" seems to be as good a summary of this as anything.

However, like literally any activity in the world, if you put more effort in to it, you gain more out of it.

If you dont want to put that effort in to it, that's great. Trackers absolutely wont stop you from being able to do that.

What I dont get is, since you are able to play the game the way you want to play the game, why would you want others to not be able to play the game the way they want to play it? It doesnt impact your ability to play the game the way you want to play it - a tracker wont stop your sord being sharp, nor will it alter the fact that your hamer hurts.

I mean, setting aside the fact that you literally cant stop people putting in that additional time and effort, why would you even want to?

Sapiverenus

@Ace1234
If Attributes affected relevant things in a 'realistic' manner then that's a sort of time management and situation-prediction theory craft.
There's various situations to consider; Agility might not let you kill something but allow you to run from certain death.

Aerlana

I will try again to help you to understand...

Sure, strengths and weaknesses are obvious just seeing the foe in any good game. and it doesn't need a game to have it, it is ALREADY the case in lot of game
But then you say "You don't need precise values to know something exists though. You don't need to know everything under the hood either." Which is true, no one here said it was mandatory to enjoy a game, and most people play video games without it. I love to know the precise values, (or the range when it is RNG). Give me a game with RNG in ennemies healthpoint, i will fill a spreadsheet with all amount of damages used to kill it.

You only think that we want to do all those numbers study because we think we need it, but... it is simply mostly how we like to play games.
gathering data thru experimenting 10, 100 1000 time same thing (as "killing this ennemy and collect all information) is what i like.
And no video game yet managed to forbid people to do such thing... Some tried to get mysterious as FFXI, but in the end, players had what they wanted.

From the begining you try to convince us that your way to see this is better than ours... while we are trying to explain you that taste is just taste and that we never said our taste were better than others.

And yes, your ideas are far from what devs promised...
The simple fact you think that invasion on nodes fit the base idea is a proof you don't understand this project. Adding this would be a turn down for lot of people on this forum, for lot of people there from the kickstarter...
And while you think to have the truth, and hope ashes of creation to be your dream video game, while you hate video game (again... what are you doing on a forum about a hobby you hate ? ) You remain an absolute nobody...
you don't trust me ? look back at answeres to your ideas... people just rejected it... Some in harsh way, others trying to say you "yes good but... not for this game sorry"

You say "no one wants a good game" ... False, everyone here want a good game. but i have a BIG spoiler for you ; in the reality, "good" and "bad" are subjectiv, based on personnal opinion, on your own tastes. what is good for you can be bad for others. And what other find good, you could fine it bad.
This is one reason i asked "give me example of good games" ... because it would help a lot to understand your taste...

Also... realism in video game never was a sale argument for me. this never was what i looked for a game. Neither in "pro" or "cons" ... (even if it can become a "cons" when the realism is here just to make the gameplay slower, uselessly complex like the hunger or thirst bar.)

Mag7spy

Aerlana wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are not trust worthy, the fact you are trying to say food is the same as a game is pretty stupid. As usual you are trying to manipulate information to suit you.

I could easily go over the logistics on the difference but I'm not going to do that for your terrible take. You won't view what anyone else will, or even attempt to think of a game without trackers being useful. All you will do is try to push trackers, your display picture is a meme btw.

ok, we could go on movies so... with Jurassic world being better than jurassic park. most marvel movies better than the old star wars trilogy (or even the "prelogy") ... Or Avatar being the best movie of the history... while James Cameron himself admits the movie to be not so good.

Oh no, it is not needed, we will stay in video game in fact. because we can watch video game with video games based on their sales right ?
Fifa, which just change the roster each year, is a better franchise than AC so.
And what about nintendog being in front of halflife franchise ? maybe in fact people don't care HL3

And seeing thing this way, no more need to have debate about the best Final Fantasy... VI > IV > VII > XV (no one laugh about XV being the 4th best FF ! )

Oh, but i know, you will come and say that we can watch at numbers only between video games of the same genre... right ?
The funny thing, a simple way to take the crown from blizzard would probably just ... to see gamefreaks doing a mmorpg, We would see fast insane sales, enough to dwarf the current most sold MMORPG...

Why are you even talking about fifa. Moving on from this comment.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I could easily go over the logistics on the difference but I'm not going to do that for your terrible take.

No you couldn't.

If you could, you would. You are so dsperate to prove me wrong, if you had anything to actually facilitate that with, you'd jump all over it.

You won't view what anyone else will, or even attempt to think of a game without trackers being useful.

Literally any activity in the world can see people improve by the introduction of objective data, and tools to analyze that data.

Everything from baking a cake to marketing a business, to playing basketball, to designing a car, to reading a book. All of it can be improved via analysis of objective data.

In an MMO, that objective data is analyzed via a combat tracker.

Your assertion that an MMO could be the only activity in the world where this is not the case is just wrong. This is why you have made that assertion, but not backed it up with any reasoning or suggestions. You know it is a false assertion - you just spew it again and again in hopes that someone - anyone - will believe you.

I mean, if you gave me an example of an MMO where a tracker wouldn't be of value (note; of value to me, not of value in some limited manner that you wish to define) then I absolutely will believe you.

Unlike you, it would seem I am not going to make myself look like a fool by denying something placed right in front of my face. I would rather simply admit that I was wrong and explore this new thing that I hadn't considered.

Problem is, as I said, you cant place that idea in front of me, and if you could, you would.

I dont need to prove you wrong, WoW killed EQ, and eq is still dead. You are so desperate to want some new eq when no one wants anything like that kind of game. It isn't even inspiration for AoC.

And desperate I didn't even @ your ass wit the original comment, like who are you. You are in here desperately trying to defend your game and have yourself be right because that is all you can do even though you are wrong more than half the time with some of the worst takes I've seen on a forum..

Your assertion that an MMO could be the only activity in the world where this is not the case is just wrong.

Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins.

Since you want to bring up sports(lol) they aren't looking at a tracker to improve they are using skill and knowledge. Your lay of looking at things is not based on life experience again you are desperate to be right and trying to compare everything to being the same. Same reason you used food as an example (again that made 0 sense).

That is funny I've already go over go create game design where its not as valuable with skill.

What is also funny is your lack of attempt or care to even try. This isn't about them not being in the game, this is about you personally trying to have them in the game and create weird arguments for it. You don't care what anyone thinks, you only care about your own selfishness. You easily could have gone on supporting the devs and trying to give your ideas on how to create content that makes trackers much less effective, while still being fine if they were there in the future. But again its not about that or what the devs are trying to do, it is simply what you want. And most likely out of fear knowing your skills in a mmorpg are most likely lacking.

Sapiverenus

Aerlana wrote: »

I will try again to help you to understand...

Sure, strengths and weaknesses are obvious just seeing the foe in any good game. and it doesn't need a game to have it, it is ALREADY the case in lot of game
But then you say "You don't need precise values to know something exists though. You don't need to know everything under the hood either." Which is true, no one here said it was mandatory to enjoy a game, and most people play video games without it. I love to know the precise values, (or the range when it is RNG). Give me a game with RNG in ennemies healthpoint, i will fill a spreadsheet with all amount of damages used to kill it.

You only think that we want to do all those numbers study because we think we need it, but... it is simply mostly how we like to play games.
gathering data thru experimenting 10, 100 1000 time same thing (as "killing this ennemy and collect all information) is what i like.
And no video game yet managed to forbid people to do such thing... Some tried to get mysterious as FFXI, but in the end, players had what they wanted.

From the begining you try to convince us that your way to see this is better than ours... while we are trying to explain you that taste is just taste and that we never said our taste were better than others.

And yes, your ideas are far from what devs promised...
The simple fact you think that invasion on nodes fit the base idea is a proof you don't understand this project. Adding this would be a turn down for lot of people on this forum, for lot of people there from the kickstarter...
And while you think to have the truth, and hope ashes of creation to be your dream video game, while you hate video game (again... what are you doing on a forum about a hobby you hate ? ) You remain an absolute nobody...
you don't trust me ? look back at answeres to your ideas... people just rejected it... Some in harsh way, others trying to say you "yes good but... not for this game sorry"

You say "no one wants a good game" ... False, everyone here want a good game. but i have a BIG spoiler for you ; in the reality, "good" and "bad" are subjectiv, based on personnal opinion, on your own tastes. what is good for you can be bad for others. And what other find good, you could fine it bad.
This is one reason i asked "give me example of good games" ... because it would help a lot to understand your taste...

Also... realism in video game never was a sale argument for me. this never was what i looked for a game. Neither in "pro" or "cons" ... (even if it can become a "cons" when the realism is here just to make the gameplay slower, uselessly complex like the hunger or thirst bar.)

Data: Can be changed easily. It is simply your taste that it remains static and that your spreadsheet is particularly useful.
If you do not even know the precise damage but simply time to kill then you do have information but it doesn't "solve the game".

So at the end of the day whether it is easy for you and others to dissect in terms of precise numerical values and probabilities is a Design Choice.

Many decisions you support is a turn down to people that would like to play the game and already support it.
Many ideas I suggest are appealing to supporters and those that would play the game.

At the end of the day it's simply a matter of 'taste' but if that's all we're left with then how about this:

There are 8 classes. 8 sub-classes. And you don't have to enjoy every single one of them.

Those that like to sit in this forum are not even close to the majority of people that would spend money on the game.
And neither of us are developing it or have invested millions.

I'd simply like for there to be a better game that has less niche appeal.

But if you want this to be about tastes then how about this: A person's tastes says a lot about them.
And a taste for video games sure does as well.

Try to see the broadening of the game as an opportunity for growth and a broadening of your mind as well. An evolution for the game, for the players.

Many survival elements are not necessary but the critical issues to me is a lack of dynamic PvE Pressure, lack of PvX progression, and lack of Class Uniqueness and Depth.

Thank you.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You respond to Mag with another, where you say "organically uncovering info from an enemy is part of the strategy"
yet don't understand the issue with DPS numbers and how that reveals enemy resistances, health pool, et cetera.

The problem is, a tracker cant do this.

Like you, Mag is arguing from a position of not knowing how trackers actually work.

Imagine tracking how much dmg it took to kill a player number wise and then making this statement.

Noaani likes to be manipulative also enjoys being insulting to people that don't agree with him, ALSO enjoys not respecting people and thrives on the tension it creates

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Since you want to bring up sports(lol) they aren't looking at a tracker to improve they are using skill and knowledge.

Have you heard of a little movie (based on reality) called Moneyball?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzin1DgexlE

If that's not a "tracker" being used to figure out the best way to reach their goal - I dunno what is.

As a matter of fact I'll go rewatch it right now cause I haven't seen it in a long while and it's a great movie

Chickenlipzz

I mean, for me it is really simple and not a huge thing. If the meter will help enhance or facilitate a more enjoyable experience and makes sense as part of the game, fine. Just because I may not like it or use it doesn't mean others won't. I can say from personal experience though, in other games I have seen it cause a divide between players. Would love to play an MMO for once where no one labels play types and just plays and enjoys the game.....

Child Item