NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sorry to disappoint(?). Would you like more variety? As noted, I only do this because the rest of my group doesn't generally have the time/patience, but I could honestly leave 'Mag Fact Checks' to other people. Nah, but I mainly judge what I wanna read and pay attention to by pfp first and then by the name if the pfp is the auto-generated one (hate them with a passion cause half of these fuckers look the same). So when I saw your pfp and read the comment I thought it was someone knew. Then read the comment and double-checked the name cause the comment read like you
Azherae wrote: » Sorry to disappoint(?). Would you like more variety? As noted, I only do this because the rest of my group doesn't generally have the time/patience, but I could honestly leave 'Mag Fact Checks' to other people.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I dont need to prove you wrong, WoW killed EQ, and eq is still dead. You are so desperate to want some new eq when no one wants anything like that kind of game. It isn't even inspiration for AoC. And desperate I didn't even @ your ass wit the original comment, like who are you. You are in here desperately trying to defend your game and have yourself be right because that is all you can do even though you are wrong more than half the time with some of the worst takes I've seen on a forum. I mean, both EQ games are getting full expansions later on this year. Can you name me any other MMO exclusive franchise that is getting two full expansions this year? I mean, sure, neither EQ is as popular as WoW, or ESO, or FFXIV, but that doesnt make them dead. As to you complaining that you didnt @ me, so what? This is a discussion forum, not a shut-your-damn-mouth-unless-I-@ -you forum. Most people on these forums know if someone posts something dumb or factually incorrect, and if I read it, I will respond calling it out. To be fair, when it comes to you, I've had to lower my standards to only bothering with the most egregious offenses, as trying to get them all would be a near full time job. If you dont want me to respond to your posts, dont say dumb things. It's that simple. And hey, if you dont want to take the time to.prove me wrong, all that says is that you know you cant make an argument without saying something dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. If data exists, there is something that can be learned from it. It may not be important to you, and that's great. It not being important to you does not mean that other people should not be able to have access to it. I dont give a shit about RP content in a game, but you wont see me arguing that Intrepid shouldnt add RP content to Ashes, because other people will use it. You not seeing any importance in data and a tracker does not mean they shouldnt exist. Also, your comment about fighting games is interesting. As I have said before, you use different tools to analyze different games. In a fighting game, you use replays of fights and analyze them. If I am not mistaken, most fighting games that the community takes somewhat seriously have some form of replay functionality built in (or the ability to watch matches between top ranked players). A combat tracker is an MMO version of that. A simple replay isnt sufficient, as there is several orders of magnitude more happening in any given moment in a top end raid than in a fighting game, so trackers are the way everything is presented. Since you want to bring up sports(lol) they aren't looking at a tracker to improve they are using skill and knowledge. Literally every professional (and most amateur) sports gather and analyze data in order to improve. I mean, I cant see how you could say they dont. You dont even need to follow sport closely to know this. The post from NiKr above about Money all is a perfect example, but it is worth pointing out that Baseball was (as far as I know) the last major sport anywhere in the world to switch to analysis driven management. This isn't about them not being in the game, this is about you personally trying to have them in the game and create weird arguments for it. My argument for trackers is actually fairly straight forward. It can basically be boiled down to the following; Some people enjoy using trackers, they are also useful tools for finding bugs in any MMO. This should see them existing as the default choice. The only reason Intrepid have stated for not including them is due to toxicity that they claim they will bring. They believe that people will exclude others based on class or build if trackers exist. To this I way no, players will exclude others because they can. In the absence of objective data to back up their opinion, people will simply fabricate their own facts (a recent phenomenon, due in no small part to recent world politics, I assume). This is what I have been saying for years. The fact that there are currently two posters in this thread that are against trackers, both of whom make shit up to support their arguments is just poetry, as far as I am concerned. The two of you are literally proving why trackers may as well exist.
Mag7spy wrote: » I dont need to prove you wrong, WoW killed EQ, and eq is still dead. You are so desperate to want some new eq when no one wants anything like that kind of game. It isn't even inspiration for AoC. And desperate I didn't even @ your ass wit the original comment, like who are you. You are in here desperately trying to defend your game and have yourself be right because that is all you can do even though you are wrong more than half the time with some of the worst takes I've seen on a forum.
Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed.
Since you want to bring up sports(lol) they aren't looking at a tracker to improve they are using skill and knowledge.
This isn't about them not being in the game, this is about you personally trying to have them in the game and create weird arguments for it.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus So an encyclopedic database can be built? It's an MMO; a game of exploration. Uncertainty is part of the appeal. ??????? I thought we went over this, leading to yoir eventual "as long as it gets done"- I don't understand why you are now backtracking to a point we already had a resolution over. I said I don't desire for this, I also said that even if you remove all ability to get direct enemy data feedback, the facts that A)you can yield a result (with some variability) against said enemyes B)trial and error exists means that you might eventually get those databases anyway from people who live to test and figure out that variability. In agreeance with you, I also still think it is best to not give that direct enemy data feedback. Hense detering from said databases, but not excluding the potential existence of dps build feedback- hense the "training ground dummy" suggestion.
So an encyclopedic database can be built? It's an MMO; a game of exploration. Uncertainty is part of the appeal.
lmao what is this bullshit? "you might get those databases" do not waste my time with your hopes and dreams for trackers and databases because you dont' actually like exploration.
You are probably imagining a Training Dummy provide number feedback. No. There should be an effect such as you'd find with an actual 'Training Dummy' or whatever implements such as a Wood Plank Target, a Tree, whatever.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does.
Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better.
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Ok, this is not meant to be an insult, I legitimately feel like "28-44" in this video is the interaction that took place in this convo.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ye-WyVWZJgE&t=43s I recommend maybe reading through the convo again for a refresher on the train of reasoning that was used to arrive at the conclusion. We went step by step resolving how 1. I don't think tracking enemy data should be encouraged 2. pre-enemy interaction dps feedback could potentially occur without revealing direct enemy data (assuming the dps is dependent upon enemy-specific modifiers and variance) 3. Said dps feedback would support the theory crafters by gibing them this convenience tool, to promote their style of data structuring rather than forcing experiential methods of testing 4. it would be best to support these theory crafters since it is a valid "skill-check" as long as the more "qualitative" skill-checks are encouraged in the combat system- so it would be worth having an "arbitrary" complexity in build depth to promote said skill and prevent rewarding simple "number crunching" And the most irritating part of it all is how ypu acted like finally understand how a basic conversation works, admitting that you wasted my time by getting mad over be "dismissing" somethung that was never even stated by the time I entered the thread. Yet immediately you fall back into you bahavioral pattern saying: lmao what is this bullshit? "you might get those databases" do not waste my time with your hopes and dreams for trackers and databases because you dont' actually like exploration. At the slightest hint of a misunderstanding. Stop wasting my time making me coddle you before allowing me to unravel your twisted perceptions of what im trying to say.
Azherae wrote: » Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve.
Mag7spy wrote: » I don't know why you are going on a tangent about importance of a tracker. This is like playing DnD and asking the DM let me know your skills of the monsters, the damage of the monsters, the hp of the monster, etc.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames?
No you can't have pre-mitigated DPS and avoid data analysis, database building, and tracking. The best way to avoid such is to not show any precise numbers and then everyone is basically looking at the same game.
Aerlana wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. I can confirm... The overall tendency is more transparency about game mechanics, data, and mathematics. Devs understood that player will get informations they want, so they prefer now give it... And the more transparency there is, the more analytics are easily avaible, the more even "low players" find their place in the community and will improve their gameplay more... Back when i went on aion release, i discovered ani cancel (not a big thing on summoner and chanter but it did exist) and weaving (big deal on chanter)... and it made a huge gap between people knowing this, and the majority ignoring this... I first was happy, young adult i was... easily superior... then, speaking to some people i realised all the frustration they had, they didnt have the keys to improve themselves... they lacked lot of informations for it. they were "bad" not because too lazy to train their skill, but because they couldn't simply train efficiently... The more informations players can have, better it is even for the lower part... even more for them in fact because top players will get the information. Mag7spy wrote: » I don't know why you are going on a tangent about importance of a tracker. This is like playing DnD and asking the DM let me know your skills of the monsters, the damage of the monsters, the hp of the monster, etc. Each friday i do DnD5ed, one week i am dungeon master, another week it is a good friend... and i played a lot, and did ton of builds for 3.5... So i can point that here you are saying a stupidity. After any fight, a good player that analysis the fight will know all needed information about the ennemy... In fact, after 1 fight, i am far more accurate about ennemies on my DnD game as player, than i ever was after 1 fight on MMORPG using a tracker... Turnbase system allow a far easier analysis of data. There hugely less amount of data to check. Rules are simple and many information are easy to check. So it is far easier to do data analysis in DnD than in MMORPG even using tracker in MMORPG... On NwN2 servers (3.5 rules persistant roleplay servers) i need to do dungeons once to then begin to optimise how to clean it... after 5th clear only, it is as fluid as i can with the current level/stuff of my character (needs months to get max level, and ... even a year could be not enough to get full stuff ^^') (the game is realtime, but you analyse it in the round base logic. 6 second being 1 round) But this is not really where your sentence is stupid... "asking the dm to let me know" ... so here you consider that tracker is like getting informations BEFORE the end of the fight right ? But the tracker gives you informations AFTER the fight... ... ... Again you prove to know nothing about trackers, about how they work and what they give...
HOSTILE ARCHITECTURE
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae Seen and played enough a player can tell that the window is smaller/ larger. Sometimes it's just speculation but at least a person improves by playing the more difficult character/ playstyle -> then eventually can reliably tell. Maybe you should learn more about Islanders crossing hundred mile ocean gaps to other islands with nothing but overcast, by laying on the bottom of their canoes (yes canoes) and feeling the ocean currents.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability. This just comes down to skill difference, what I'm saying should be pretty clear if you play a lot of fighting games and have talent. You should be aware of the speed of your moves by playing and fighting other characters with their fast moves counting as measurements for you. If all you can do is look at data you aren't going to improve as a player, it wont make you better when you are trying to fight the more upper tier of players. Knowing your moves should be instinctive. Maybe stop reading and watching so much and play more and you will understand. Try to get to the very top of players and see how you do or if you can reach that height. No one has need of talking about frame data says that well they are well aware of the frame data instinctively from experience.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae Seen and played enough a player can tell that the window is smaller/ larger. Sometimes it's just speculation but at least a person improves by playing the more difficult character/ playstyle -> then eventually can reliably tell. Maybe you should learn more about Islanders crossing hundred mile ocean gaps to other islands with nothing but overcast, by laying on the bottom of their canoes (yes canoes) and feeling the ocean currents. Unless you are Mag7's alt, please assume I will address your perceptions separately. I have no indication that you have played any of these games (but I don't read all your posts). If you do, please give me some GENERAL idea of what series you played so that I can ask the appropriate questions based on the data models for that game series.
