Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae Seen and played enough a player can tell that the window is smaller/ larger. Sometimes it's just speculation but at least a person improves by playing the more difficult character/ playstyle -> then eventually can reliably tell. Maybe you should learn more about Islanders crossing hundred mile ocean gaps to other islands with nothing but overcast, by laying on the bottom of their canoes (yes canoes) and feeling the ocean currents. Unless you are Mag7's alt, please assume I will address your perceptions separately. I have no indication that you have played any of these games (but I don't read all your posts). If you do, please give me some GENERAL idea of what series you played so that I can ask the appropriate questions based on the data models for that game series. Tribesman is good enough. Along with all other examples of human extraordinary ability. It's fuckin' basic.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae Seen and played enough a player can tell that the window is smaller/ larger. Sometimes it's just speculation but at least a person improves by playing the more difficult character/ playstyle -> then eventually can reliably tell. Maybe you should learn more about Islanders crossing hundred mile ocean gaps to other islands with nothing but overcast, by laying on the bottom of their canoes (yes canoes) and feeling the ocean currents. Unless you are Mag7's alt, please assume I will address your perceptions separately. I have no indication that you have played any of these games (but I don't read all your posts). If you do, please give me some GENERAL idea of what series you played so that I can ask the appropriate questions based on the data models for that game series.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae Seen and played enough a player can tell that the window is smaller/ larger. Sometimes it's just speculation but at least a person improves by playing the more difficult character/ playstyle -> then eventually can reliably tell. Maybe you should learn more about Islanders crossing hundred mile ocean gaps to other islands with nothing but overcast, by laying on the bottom of their canoes (yes canoes) and feeling the ocean currents.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae real life.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability. This just comes down to skill difference, what I'm saying should be pretty clear if you play a lot of fighting games and have talent. You should be aware of the speed of your moves by playing and fighting other characters with their fast moves counting as measurements for you. If all you can do is look at data you aren't going to improve as a player, it wont make you better when you are trying to fight the more upper tier of players. Knowing your moves should be instinctive. Maybe stop reading and watching so much and play more and you will understand. Try to get to the very top of players and see how you do or if you can reach that height. No one has need of talking about frame data says that well they are well aware of the frame data instinctively from experience. Again, I can agree with this, I'm asking you if you think a person can or should need to do this for something that is ONE frame difference in speed in an Active Frame. You seem to be saying 'yes, if you were truly skilled, you would be able to do this just visually', but I'm not sure. You could also be saying 'You should be able to work it out from ingame experience', but for differences of 1 frame in Active Frames, this isn't consistently possible, and for some moves it is explicitly impossible. The question would then be 'is there a point in the game where it is impossible to tell, but knowing would make a difference'. I want to make sure I'm interpreting your response right, I'm currently at 'if you were truly skilled you would be able to do this just visually'. Let me know.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability. This just comes down to skill difference, what I'm saying should be pretty clear if you play a lot of fighting games and have talent. You should be aware of the speed of your moves by playing and fighting other characters with their fast moves counting as measurements for you. If all you can do is look at data you aren't going to improve as a player, it wont make you better when you are trying to fight the more upper tier of players. Knowing your moves should be instinctive. Maybe stop reading and watching so much and play more and you will understand. Try to get to the very top of players and see how you do or if you can reach that height. No one has need of talking about frame data says that well they are well aware of the frame data instinctively from experience.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames?
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does.
Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins.
Strevi wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Your takes are so bad actually full of manipulation, i know you aren't dumb. Data exist doesn't mean its important to a game based on how it is designed. When you play a fighting game a tracker isn't going to make you better, your skill and knowledge of the game and characters is what is going to be the difference on who wins. This is of course, also untrue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxyMqZdIzeI Newest game intends to add explicit frame data visualizations to help players improve. Mag is going to make a self-revealing incorrect counterpoint to this, so I'll wait for it before saying more. Feel free to use this until he does. You don't need that to improve you should be well aware of your skills to begin with through actually playing the game or using training. You are discovering new moves all the sudden, they moves worked the same before and will work the same after nothing is hidden. If you aren't aware of how your character works and can feel the speed of your moves i suppose it does it make more clear for less experienced people though. This isn't going to have you beat good players though if your skill height is average I'm sure in that case it might help as will anything. (average with character but can actually understand the speed that it is showing, granted again if you are at a higher level you should just be able to understand by playing.) Anyway ya that isn't going to help you be a better player against people that are actually skilled at the game. You could look at meters bars / tracking, ettc all day and it wont change if they are better than you, they will be better. So you're saying that a person should be able to tell from 'just playing the game' that their move has 5 active frames instead of 4 active frames? Yes its pretty clear on knowing what moves you have are fast based on experience, and what moves who you are fighting are going to do and using the right skill to counter them based on timing. As well as adjust, this is nothing special you just gain more experience and understand through playing the game. Of course if you are fighting at a lower level player anything you can do can improve you at that point. As well as knowing their recoveries and be able to keep them on the defensive or punish them if they act. All skills you gain from just playing the game and understanding it, your character and your whole movelist. This is the answer given by a person who does not understand Frame Data. And that's fine. If you actually understand it, you have done a good job of staying ambiguous about that understanding. But it isn't really my question. I'm asking if you think a person should be able to look at a move in the game and say 'That move has 4 Active Frames, not 5' without anything in the game telling them this, just like, visual skill/ability. This just comes down to skill difference, what I'm saying should be pretty clear if you play a lot of fighting games and have talent. You should be aware of the speed of your moves by playing and fighting other characters with their fast moves counting as measurements for you. If all you can do is look at data you aren't going to improve as a player, it wont make you better when you are trying to fight the more upper tier of players. Knowing your moves should be instinctive. Maybe stop reading and watching so much and play more and you will understand. Try to get to the very top of players and see how you do or if you can reach that height. No one has need of talking about frame data says that well they are well aware of the frame data instinctively from experience. Again, I can agree with this, I'm asking you if you think a person can or should need to do this for something that is ONE frame difference in speed in an Active Frame. You seem to be saying 'yes, if you were truly skilled, you would be able to do this just visually', but I'm not sure. You could also be saying 'You should be able to work it out from ingame experience', but for differences of 1 frame in Active Frames, this isn't consistently possible, and for some moves it is explicitly impossible. The question would then be 'is there a point in the game where it is impossible to tell, but knowing would make a difference'. I want to make sure I'm interpreting your response right, I'm currently at 'if you were truly skilled you would be able to do this just visually'. Let me know. Speed runners train months and years to manage to achieve runs at frame-rate perfection. One frame can make a difference to be able to beat a speed record. But often those records are beaten by discovering new glitches and techniques.
Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae I am not sure who you are hoping to convince with your act. Who is the target? Why don't you just admit that you are wrong?
Depends entirely on execution of the variability and interactions. If it's intuitive you don't need a tracker anyway to figure out the general result of some encounter, and it's a more immersive game. split hairs else where
Ace1234 wrote: » @Sapiverenus Depends entirely on execution of the variability and interactions. If it's intuitive you don't need a tracker anyway to figure out the general result of some encounter, and it's a more immersive game. split hairs else where Why would I not want to split hairs when I am affected by it. If you can accomplish a specific goal of mitigating enemy data tracking without indirectly affecting other people then that is a better option, unless you just don't care, in which case that is why I said you would only be advocating for this out of spite for other's preferences, which isn't a good reason. Figure out a way to do it is what im saying. That still doesn't address the fact that databases could potentially still be created through manual calculations and testing and third party tools, in which case how does your idea prevent that from happening 100%, and if it doesn't how is that fair for those trying to do it through skill-based methods, like theory crafting and experiential learning? This next point is just to backtrack as to why I want build feedback to begin with. Following this train of thought is what leads us to the above divergence in how to allow for feedback while mitigating enemy data tracking. I have given several examples already but you still seem stuck on it being 100% reliant on skill to maximize your efficiency/effectiveness. Me and you do not disagree on whether skill should be prioritized, we disagree on whether skill can be solely relied upon without introducing additional tools for further skill-expression and less rng. No matter how intuitive it is you will never be able to get exactness in a complex system without direct feedback, hense my "biologically impossible" reference. It just becomes to much data at a certain point where it is just not feasible for humans to accurately measure it through feeling, and some .00001% population example who could is not good enough imo, but even that is not the case once you reach certain levels of complexities.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » @Azherae I am not sure who you are hoping to convince with your act. Who is the target? Why don't you just admit that you are wrong? You misunderstand my goal. I 'represent' a group of 6 people who would like to play this game but do not have the patience for certain conversations. My efforts are entirely towards making it as clear as possible to those people, the perspectives of others on the forum who make certain claims, so that they do not extend threads unnecessarily, waste their time, or get angry. I post so that they do not have to. Anyone else who benefits from any knowledge I have is welcome to rely on me similarly. I am the one most practiced at dealing with this sort of conversation without making personal attacks or being toxic in a way that risks forum bans. It is preferable that all the people I know who have strong negative opinions of certain behaviours, do not post here, and can remain silent knowing that I will handle it. But if you would like to simplify this response to 'within the scope of your question': "Six people who do not post in this thread."
Noaani wrote: » Some people enjoy using trackers, they are also useful tools for finding bugs in any MMO. This should see them existing as the default choice. The only reason Intrepid have stated for not including them is due to toxicity that they claim they will bring. They believe that people will exclude others based on class or build if trackers exist. To this I way no, players will exclude others because they can. In the absence of objective data to back up their opinion, people will simply fabricate their own facts (a recent phenomenon, due in no small part to recent world politics, I assume).
You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff
Strevi wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Some people enjoy using trackers, they are also useful tools for finding bugs in any MMO. This should see them existing as the default choice. The only reason Intrepid have stated for not including them is due to toxicity that they claim they will bring. They believe that people will exclude others based on class or build if trackers exist. To this I way no, players will exclude others because they can. In the absence of objective data to back up their opinion, people will simply fabricate their own facts (a recent phenomenon, due in no small part to recent world politics, I assume). This is an interesting statement. Wiki say You can pre-plan out for a lot of the raid like how many DPS do you need and healers and support; where the key position and all that kind of stuff So if according to Steven, players will know this, then of course they will not take 6 tanks if only 5 are needed, isn't it? But then is this true for all kind of tanks? Why do we have 64 classes? Is the secondary archetype important? Did Steven came up first with 64 classes and then realized that with help from trackers players will be able to tell that for example Guardian-Bard and Guardian-Rogue are less useful than the others? And therefore decided no trackers are allowed? Or did he decided first against trackers and added 64 classes to cause more confusion, even if trackers are used?
Why are you talking about skill and options. The game provides options. That is the other expression. That is player choice. Player agency as you say. Trackers are so far from what you're saying. You don't get great at a game by just precision, and human precision can be very good if you are experienced. Just play the game instead of looking for a boost.
Mag7spy wrote: » If you are meta gaming on DnD i feel sorry for you.
Mag7spy wrote: » If you watch a lot of matches you aren't going to suddenly be a better player. There is a big difference between fighting and feeling and simply just watching something even if you understand it.
Sapiverenus wrote: » There is nothing fundamentally fun about what you call "theorycrafting" except to get the boost.
Sapiverenus wrote: » What is fun is to be in a massively multiplayer WORLD.
