DPS Meter Megathread

@Sapiverenus

Well it should be clear by now that when I say "without any drawback" its in regards to the potential for avoiding databasing the enemy data. If you say that simple dps tracking in a vacuum without enemy interactions can cause databasing, then your efforts are pointless because people can manually calculate that anyway. My point is that since you cant really stop manual calculations, you might as well make it easiser for the theory crafters by giving that quick feedback.

Assuming the above is addressed- then from there its just about whether it is a skill worthy if being tested in the gameplay. Basically you just don't respect data analysis as a skill because you get bored of it. Thats fine but certain people enjoy it and want that experience included. Neither one is explicitly right or wrong its just a preference. Yes you can say its a "free boost" but that can be said about any system. Every system "boosts" you toward achieving the win condition, thats kinda the point of having it as a conditional requirement, in order gate your victory behind a skill-check. So everything you say can be applied to any system if you don't value the related skill, its just a rhetorical thing to say.

Yes I did watch and understand the video, but in the context of my argument as a whole im not sure why you are saying I "just dont want to play the game". If you read anything up to this point everything I said supports skill-expression in gameplay design. You just don't consider that aspect as "playing the game". That is still a bizzarre thing to say because even if you don't consider it as playing the game, it doesn't remove the other systems that I clearly support that you do consider to be "playing the game" so im not sure why you would be saying that- its simply not true.

I understand what you are trying to say but assuming it doesn't "database the game" then ultimately it just boils down to preference- and no not a preference of making the game more shallow vs making it have more depth like you are about to say lol- because I explained above how that is not the case. So its nothing to be so passionately opposed to.

@Ace1234
"If you say that simple dps tracking in a vacuum without enemy interactions can cause databasing, then your efforts are pointless because people can manually calculate that anyway."

Please stop making shit up.
There is no DPS in a vacuum if you do not hand a number to players.

Go ahead and make up a hypothetical game situation where you can manually calculate everything even without handing a number to players, if you wish to prove some point.

Don't give me this useless exposition that means nothing. Solve the problem. Go ahead. Create the hypothetical damage/ resistance/ health representation/ damage representation whatever else system then show how it can be reverse engineered.

See how many wrenches I can throw into it.

Also I don't like RNG for anything if the game is based on mechanics; physical, real, deep, grounded.

LMAO

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Go ahead and make up a hypothetical game situation where you can manually calculate everything even without handing a number to players, if you wish to prove some point.

Why?

One of the few things we know about combat in Ashes is that we will have numerical feedback. Any discussion around not having that is hypothetical.

I mean, I am all for hypothetical discussions (in their own thread), but you dont simply dismiss facts we know about the game and replace them with your own wishes when discussing this actual game in a non-hypothetical manner.

This is what I mean when I say you are simply making up your own truth. This is why you are living proof that Steven's reasoning for not wanting trackers in Ashes is totally false. He claims people will be less toxic without objective data, but you have proven beyond doubt that people no longer care about data, or truth. They will happily substitute opinion for both, and just do what ever they want.

@Sapiverenus

If you say that simple dps tracking in a vacuum without enemy interactions can cause databasing, then your efforts are pointless because people can manually calculate that anyway."

Please stop making shit up.
There is no DPS in a vacuum if you do not hand a number to players.

Go ahead and make up a hypothetical game situation where you can manually calculate everything even without handing a number to players, if you wish to prove some point.

Really dude? Obviously. Nobody is referencing the premise of your dream scenario. I said at the beginning that my thoughts were based on thier current direction and making that as good as possible, said direction will have numbers available to you, hense that statement I made about manual calulations. There is no need for a hypothetical because it will already be the case in Ashes. If anything your scenario is hypothetical.

Eyrate

I am torn on this topic. During 40 person WOW runs, they can in handy for dedicated raiding guilds. BUT there is more to being a good raid member. Knowing the mechanics of your character and the fights. Being there on time. Staying for the duration. Not rage quitting. Special things your class can add that might actually minimize your DPS, such as CC, taking time to rez someone, etc. People get too obsessed with their numbers and not doing what is best for the group. But members sure need to pull their weight and not just be a tag-a-long.

Eyrate wrote: »

I am torn on this topic. During 40 person WOW runs, they can in handy for dedicated raiding guilds. BUT there is more to being a good raid member. Knowing the mechanics of your character and the fights. Being there on time. Staying for the duration. Not rage quitting. Special things your class can add that might actually minimize your DPS, such as CC, taking time to rez someone, etc. People get too obsessed with their numbers and not doing what is best for the group. But members sure need to pull their weight and not just be a tag-a-long.

This is mostly all true.

A combat tracker isnt going to make someone that isnt showing up forntaids on time any better, nor will it automatically mean someone knows the mechanics of an encounter.

However, a combat tracker can track CC and rezzes just fine. It might make your DPS lower, but it still shows up.

@Ace1234

So you admit that it would be easy to prevent databasing? And recognize the benefits of not handing numbers to players? Of not making it possible for players to database?

And that the game should be based on grounded mechanics that are basically intuitive anyway rather than arbitrary crap?

@Sapiverenus

I never said that "its completely impossible under any circumstance", so there is nothing to "admit" too. My argument was within the context of the current direction being taken. It would all but impossible to prevent it as things are now.

You already knew the scope of my argument because I made that clear, so im not sure why you started an argument based on your own scope that nobody was talking about. Even if that was "ideal", that is not happening with the current direction- and from that lens, you apply the train of thought that I made clear up to this point. Within this scope- there should be no issue, as I have adressed every concern you brought up, even if it is not "ideal" in your eyes, it should be acceptable based on the current direction of development.

@Ace1234

You're making arguments for your own scope so stop acting like you aren't a hypocrite and have a point.

Remove logs, numbers and trackers

no one gives a shit about the "up for change" sharif scope.

you're all trying to tell him what to do and what you want in the game; stop tonguing ass.

Remove logs, numbers, and trackers

@Sapiverenus

Dumb statement. My issue isn't about whose ideas are in line with what they are planning on doing. I am saying that my original post was with the intention of being in line with what the current dev plans are, and therefore the responses should be within that scope, unless you want to have a separate discussion about a different scope.

Scope isn't rigid. It's in-dev and a pretty simple change.

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Scope isn't rigid. It's in-dev and a pretty simple change.

Pretty simple to change in terms of technicality.

Not so easy to change in terms of retaining player trust.

Between the number of times the games combat has shown numerical feedback, the developer led discussions on it in terms of asking what players want and the outright statement from Steven that the game will have filterable and searchable logs, if Intrepid now decide that they are going to make the game with a total absence of combat feedback for players, it will leave almost all players questioning absolutely everything about the games development.

Even those that are all for this (which seems to only be you) would have to questions Intrepids direction - or Steven's ability to helm the game at all - if they made such a drastic course alteration at this point.

@Noaani
no one is trying to earn or retain your trust

Sapiverenus wrote: »

no one is trying to earn or retain your trust

I mean, Steven has said he considers maintaining the communities trust to be of the utmost importance.

He knows one of the main reasons people leave MMO's is because they lose trust in the developer/publisher. He saw first hand how many people would have dropped the game if they went with their first choice of EU publisher - a publisher the EU community has no trust in.

So sure, Intrepid may not be trying to earn or retain *MY* trust, but they absolutely are trying to both earn and retain the trust of the community as a whole.

What happened to you having me on ignore? Could you not find how to do it? I'd be happy to give you directions if you like.

Everyone is pawing for 'trust' and it has nothing to do with a game being shit or not <---- only reason people drop a game.

@Sapiverenus

Going on the dps meter thread is such a wierd way of trying to get numbers removed altogether. Make your own thread about that instead- and if it doesn't happen, then there is no reason not to come back on here and tell them your okay with dps meters. Following your premise of dps tracking leading to databasing, then if numbers are a thing players have access to, then databases will happen either way in that scenario- so dps meters should just be allowed at that point.

Why let the trackers have an advantage over the non-trackers at that point? Why not just empower everyone at that point.