Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg. Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better. In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content. However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard. Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself. I agree. The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
Mag7spy wrote: » Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. At the same time I hear from your side with trackers that you will use trackers no matter what and don't care what devs say or want. So are you and Sapiverenus that far apart really?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO
Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I was going to comment on this about old mmorpg combat, but ill just link this. That isn't "old" MMO combat. It is "shit" MMO combat. It's kind of like saying that building things in an MMO is shit, because of this game.
Mag7spy wrote: » I was going to comment on this about old mmorpg combat, but ill just link this.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV. I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question? It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT. Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect) There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob. But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV. I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question? It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT. Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV. I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
Sapiverenus wrote: » So how do you profit from this? Where does cash enter the picture? You're making $$$ somehow
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them. They may not be fun for you to play with, I won't dispute that. The thing is, you are no fun for them to play with. Some people like to stop and admire the scenery. That is fine, they are welcome to do that. Others like to push through content as quickly as they can so they can then get on to other things - be that in game or out of game. These two groups really shouldn't mix.
Sapiverenus wrote: » the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling. That doesn't make trackers less useful though. It doesn't make them more useful either. It basically just leaves them exactly where they are. As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some. I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this. you just played the game you know where you are you just want to avoid the work of improving because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling. That doesn't make trackers less useful though. It doesn't make them more useful either. It basically just leaves them exactly where they are. As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some. I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this. you just played the game you know where you are you just want to avoid the work of improving because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling. That doesn't make trackers less useful though. It doesn't make them more useful either. It basically just leaves them exactly where they are. As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some. I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
Mag7spy wrote: » So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them. LMAO indeed.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Then there are those that use and/or create trackers because they make $$$ somehow from the market
Sapiverenus wrote: » You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO
Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
Aerlana wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO You know you seems dumb with your "lmao" and attack ? i never said i wanted old mmorpg... but some feelings i had back then... I already expressed on various thread what i meant about it. and... oh miracle, most if not all thing i want to remove in modern MMORPG won't be a thing in ashes, like duty finder for example (one amongst other) And i think i can speak about highend content after the time spend on them on other MMORPG... and not only mmorpg. Your idea is not the hardcore of "hardcore player" but the "hardcore playstyle" ... as hardcore in POE which is just a "definitiv death mode" ... but still totally enjoyable for casual gamer Top end players in any game, (so the "grand master") are good not only because they train hours and hours each day... they also watch lot of data (how they watch it may vary depending game genre) For MMORPG, the datas are... pure data, huge list of numbers. and only way to watch it is... spreadsheet. Combat tracker function is ... to display the spreadsheet without spending tons of hours just to create it.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV. I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question? It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT. Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect) There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob. But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm. This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why. I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc. This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way). This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR... I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing). Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file. See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance). A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Hostile Architecture
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates. Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT. With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content. I'm assuming this does this as you are playing? You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game. If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV. I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question? It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT. Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect) There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob. But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm. This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why. I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc. This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way). This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR... I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing). Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file. See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance). A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'. If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up. I'm not doubting what you can do, there are people that made hundreds of thousands of bots on lost ark and found ways around to exploit for awhile and still now I'm sure. But you are going through so many loops at this point not just in reading the information but having to decipher the information as well so it makes sense to put it on a tracker. (this is where the combat log does its math different than the number on the screen). Then trying to decipher everyone stuff base don different key bindings and the issues you will run into it will make it such a hassle most people won't be doing that at all. On top of having skill based gameplay where people have less care for trackers and simply use combat log to min max some of their damage. There will be less need or desire for trackers.
