Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO
Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Hostile Architecture
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Sapiverenus wrote: » When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . . Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion?
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture. But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work. For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'. None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Aerlana wrote: » we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem. You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank... the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it... It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers... You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters LMAO We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself. We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though. Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle." And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...' You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point. Who is 'we'? The Summit? What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs? I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people). The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'. I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design. If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly. Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters. Hostile Architecture You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture. But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work. For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'. None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players. Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable? That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
Sapiverenus wrote: » Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable?
Aerlana wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . . Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion? PvE pressure is just a way to design content, which would lead the game to be far more PvE that what the project is. I said i would love it. but your memory seems to forget that. I would love it, but i won't defend it for AoC because ... this is not the game for it. Level powerscaling : as pen and paper DM and player... i prefer system around leveling (DD/pathfinder are great example, but also savage world) that system about skill-leveling (the system named basic is the most common for this)... Those are 2 different kind of system... and i play both. I am fine with level being a big part of strength, so goes stuff for RPG (including so... MMORPG) i don't see any problem with it... i will get weaker that the most dedicated player just for this, even those with less skill and i honestly don't see the problem... Weight management : i enforce this on my table, and my players tend to dislike it, i changed few thing to make better and still not enough... this is not a fun design, it fits only for survival games. So... clearly not a thing i want on a good MMORPG. XP on use : cf over. a design choice, it is a nice way really, but not the one i prefer (plottwist : i support another MMORPG on which ... no level, but skill-leveling on use... ) Deepercombat action / Extra PvP : where did i complain about it ? I mean, my 2 favoured gameplay on MMORPG are Aion (tab targetting) and... BNS (action)... And a game with one or other i am perfectly fine with it. For the PvP side... if i complain one of your idea will push too much the PvE side of the game... it is maybe because i want a good balance between PvP and PvE ? ... Skill Ceiling... i consider the best way to design a video game is the "easy to learn, hard to master" that was once the way t odo for blizzard and seems now the way to do for riot. So i am perfectly fine with it. Except i dislike the anicancel system (and i am fine with the weaving). but again here is a personnal choice. I prefer when the character is engaged and locked in its animation... so the bad choice of skill could be fatal, while anicancel is for me, just a smashing with short timing... relying less on decision making, and more on the speed. But never forget the "easy to learn part" ... your ideas feels for me often far from this... Hard to learn hard to master is not a good way to gather a large crowd. elitism is in fact the worst way to gather a decent community, you will need lot of people that don't care about complexity and just want to enjoy simple things in the game (again, the "game over" idea, and the "pve pressure" would repel such player) But, the real problem for you is that i don't think as you think... you consider to have the truth, but you have one truth... only one amongst many other. And because you are so sure of your opinion, you are blind to other's opinion and do shortcut about what they say things. . . You can't even understand why i love data analysis and could love to spend time on it before using information gathered thru data analysis to train again...
Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Or you just think it's not enough to stop tools?
NiKr wrote: » Damn, yall been active today.
Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire
Aerlana wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Or you just think it's not enough to stop tools? He clearly expressed it... the only way to reach the goal you defined is to have thing so unreadable/obfuscated that a big, large amount of players won't even care to give a try to understand it. and on the other side, as said by nooani, the more obscur system are, the larger the gap is between top and midtier players... You just create kind of elitism... which always lead to the crumble of the community. Leaving it to only few dedicated and mostly blind fan... A Niche game would have more population that this game... Only specific kind of people can appreciate. This is totally fine for solo game honestly... but mmorpg where you want server full during years and years... another story and for the bag : i gave why i say no : not fun, would reppel people more than anything, and it would just make the game slower. Most weight system failed in games... far more despised by gamers than applaused... Myself, i didnt feel anything good from it. just a thing i had to deal with, but not interesting, and fast forgotten. so i see no point defending it... My "limited experience" said the one who admit to not play many video game... right ?
Sapiverenus wrote: » A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
Azherae wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving. Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense. Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time. Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots. Yes tracking has many uses. And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker. Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points. Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help. Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help. The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy. Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. Yeah, I know. Different games have different tools appropriate to them. As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO. A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes. You have no fire Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility. I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging. I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
