IMPORTANCE OF AMMUNITION IN THE RANGER CLASS ARCHETI

Good afternoon, I open this discussion to be able to talk about the ammunition in the ranger class and why it is important that it be implemented, giving importance at the same time to the class of gathering wood and other minerals to be able to create ammunition of variable qualities with special effects for ranger class attacks, giving effects or boost to elemental skills, etc.

That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation.

In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.

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Comments

Ehrgeiz

Yes to ammo but only when all the other classes have consumeables aswell.

ariatras

I absolutely want ammunition.
I want it paired with a slower attack speed too, the bow shots seemed just a little too quick.
I feel like the Ranger I saw has absolutely nothing to manage, at all. No resources (except health) and I feel that arrows should absolutely be a thing. Everyone can use ranged weapons, but have classes such as rangers have some flavour in which they can create arrows from stuff around them. Everyone can buy the standard arrow from NPCs and all. But rangers can make arrows based on the stuff around them, and potentially sell them to say a fighter that uses bows.

Same with magic type classes, some of the more ritual type spells will definitely benefit from components.

Murdach

Ammo as a resource is a bad idea. Yall have only thought about it through a Ranger's perspective (or a class that specializes in damage). You cant forget that EVERYONE can pick up a bow and use it. You would seriously gimp the Cleric that uses a bow to save their mana for healing. Now someone with much less damage would be burdened with carrying ammo (ostensibly taking up even more inventory space than a Ranger). You create an imbalance, unless you want melee weapons to run on an ammo system as well...

Wardriveworley

I have to agree with others that ammo as a consumable resource isn't a good idea. Yeah it adds "realism" to the game, but not all realism is an improvement.

Personally I would rather just have quivers act as improvements to shots fired (ex: quiver of flaming arrows, quiver of lightning arrows, etc) with small boosts than as a needed money/time sink.

CROW3

Wardriveworley wrote: »

I have to agree with others that ammo as a consumable resource isn't a good idea. Yeah it adds "realism" to the game, but not all realism is an improvement.

Personally I would rather just have quivers act as improvements to shots fired (ex: quiver of flaming arrows, quiver of lightning arrows, etc) with small boosts than as a needed money/time sink.

This is exactly what Wolcen did, and it worked quite well. I’d rather crafting acumen go towards quivers than ammo, as managing ammo isn’t gameplay, it’s just tedious for the sake of being tedious.

Sapiverenus

ok

99 rangers rain hell upon an enemy node. No one survives the 24 hours of onslaught. No one survies the 48 hour onslaught. With a 280 person guild, the hell continues for a week straight. . .

Now ammo is required. They rain death for an hour then run off to resupply. Maybe another 66 people are required to keep them supplied. This is a higher effort Ranger Grief now, with fragile logistics and higher player requirement. This stretches the Fun Project of Arrow Hell thin.

Constraints necessitate and promote higher forms of organization, and weaken exploits.

Ammo would complicate any Fun that is based on Endurance and Death.

CROW3

So you want to make 99% of the player archery experience more tedious because of a beyond rare edge case you thought up?

No.

Sapiverenus

It illustrates the issue well enough.
Max ammo someone can carry can be anywhere from 1 to 9999999999999.
Unlimited ammo can be anywhere from 1 - 100% power vs special/ limited ammo.
Professions can be more or less essential.
Logistics can be more or less essential.
Higher organization can be more or less essential.
Not everyone wants to play a twitchy shooter and not everyone wants to play a MOBA and not everyone wants to do professions and not everyone wants to handle organization; but someone does.

Mag7spy

Arrows are boring, id rather a quiver holding arrow types that would be part of your gear akin to your offhand like a shield.
(same way Path of exile does it)

Heliux

Thank u....buut

No son necesarias!

Rhorden

I've played games a for a very long time and I'm firmly in the camp that bowmen should have to use arrows. Exactly how that is accomplished is up for debate but it does need to happen. I don't have a problem with rangers needing to craft arrows, it adds to the immersion and identity of the class but there's also resource management issue that needs to be addressed.

Spaghetti westerns got mocked for being able to fire 200 bullets and never reload. It was bad then and got mocked to the point where it is still referenced today as bad design. I understand people think it's tedious, takes up inventory space, wastes time, pointless, dated, etc. Personally I think that's a cop out of lazy people that want to be handed things instead of work for it. "Give me the class that uses a bow but make it so I don't need arrows", that's like saying you want a mage but the kind that doesn't have to rely on mana....
That said I know I'm in the vast minority (probably because I'm not a millennial) and crafting arrows isn't going to happen, so I'm here to find a feasible, realistic solution to both sides.

All these ideas are based around crafting full quivers, not individual arrows.

1) The number of quivers you can carry at once is determined by a ranger specific quest line. Do bad you get a second quiver slot (have 1 by default). Do excellent you get 4 (maybe 8?) quiver slots. Each quiver can hold 500 arrows and has their own slot not in regular bag inventory. If you decide to go out into the wild and 2k (4k) arrows isn't enough then you can hold more quivers in your regular inventory. I do understand though this is nothing more than a bulk version of crafted arrows that you had to craft and carry around in other games but it's a fair compromise. Obviously all number are subject to personal preferences.

2) Don't care what lore you come up with but the quiver could have magical properties that allow for a large amount of arrows to be carried in a small space (Harry Potter reference) before having to be replaced/refilled/reinvigorated somehow. With quivers holding around 2k arrows each and having its own slot, not in inventory, it would solve a lot of issues such as crafting speed - you craft one quiver, takes 10 seconds, get 2k arrows. Carry up to 8k arrows total based on idea 1.

3) Have a quiver that magically has unlimited base arrows but also carries a small number of actual arrows that are more powerful, have cc abilities, certain spell abilities, or arrows that are linked to the ranger so that when you fire it and it hits something you can gain sight from its vantage point for a limited time. Net arrows to pin things down, etc.
I know this would take a lot of reworking and wont happen, just throwing out ideas to spark convo. I also know that giving this example is partially what a lot of you want but, from a bowman point of view arrows need to matter, have a practical source, and barring that, a solid purpose. Otherwise you're just a mage with a curved stick, an odd attack animation and no mana bar.

4) Based on your sub spec, if it is a class that uses mana then the quiver, or yourself, uses mana arrows. No need to craft arrows ever again. If it's a non-mana class see idea 1.

5) An engineering/mechanical/magical quiver. You gather materials as you go and deposit them into the quiver and it makes arrows. Small quantities of basic, easily found gatherables make large quantities of arrows. This set up would allow you to stay in the field indefinitely.

I don't have a problem with rangers needing to craft arrows, it adds to the immersion and identity of the class but there's also resource management issue that needs to be addressed. If rangers don't need to use arrows then why should mages have to rely on a mana pool? A lot of people right now will scoff at this and try to justify in their minds the differences but when you look at it from a practical, neutral standpoint, it's a valid question.
If anyone has anything to add please do. The more dialogue we have the better the game can be even if it's in a direction we never expected.

CROW3

Rhorden wrote: »

Spaghetti westerns got mocked for being able to fire 200 bullets and never reload. It was bad then and got mocked to the point where it is still referenced today as bad design. I understand people think it's tedious, takes up inventory space, wastes time, pointless, dated, etc. Personally I think that's a cop out of lazy people that want to be handed things instead of work for it. "Give me the class that uses a bow but make it so I don't need arrows", that's like saying you want a mage but the kind that doesn't have to rely on mana....

1) We’ll, let’s set your spaghetti western straw man aside and focus on a relevant example in the genre. WoW started with arrows and realized after years of feedback it’s tedious and serves no gameplay value, so they removed them.

2) You realize that the active abilities for rangers are governed by a mana bar, right? It has nothing to do with quantity of arrows. So adding arrows would be like adding spell reagents for mages in addition to their mana pool.

3) I like the idea of baking a limited special arrow quantity into a quiver. It could be something as easy as repairing the quiver to replenish its count.

4) adding arrows doesn’t somehow establish players that ‘work for it’ there’s literally no gameplay value, except adding a trivial resource no one cares about with only downsides.

Rhorden

CROW3 wrote: »

Rhorden wrote: »

Spaghetti westerns got mocked for being able to fire 200 bullets and never reload. It was bad then and got mocked to the point where it is still referenced today as bad design. I understand people think it's tedious, takes up inventory space, wastes time, pointless, dated, etc. Personally I think that's a cop out of lazy people that want to be handed things instead of work for it. "Give me the class that uses a bow but make it so I don't need arrows", that's like saying you want a mage but the kind that doesn't have to rely on mana....

1) We’ll, let’s set your spaghetti western straw man aside and focus on a relevant example in the genre. WoW started with arrows and realized after years of feedback it’s tedious and serves no gameplay value, so they removed them.

2) You realize that the active abilities for rangers are governed by a mana bar, right? It has nothing to do with quantity of arrows. So adding arrows would be like adding spell reagents for mages in addition to their mana pool.

3) I like the idea of baking a limited special arrow quantity into a quiver. It could be something as easy as repairing the quiver to replenish its count.

4) adding arrows doesn’t somehow establish players that ‘work for it’ there’s literally no gameplay value, except adding a trivial resource no one cares about with only downsides.

1) The first point is an opinion either way, I get that. I played WoW for much longer than I'd care to admit and loved wpvp. I made tons of ammo thought it was a mismanaged move, among other things, when they took it out.

2) I didn't know that. I didn't see anything happen to the rangers bottom bar in the live feed. Didn't hear anything said about it either. I will watch it a second time to see if I missed something.

3) I do think there is potential there for something cool. Would be interesting if IS would entertain that.

4) This one we disagree. If you want better gear, weapons, recipes, skills etc. you have to work for it in MMOs. Why should the arrows you shoot be different? Arrows and the bow work as one. It's a weapon system. As far as downsides, in wpvp there were a lot of people that got to experience the upsides of better ammo. Taking time to craft better ammo when others wont leads to higher dps than theirs. It's only a downside for people that don't want it, or to be bothered by it. For those that do want it and are willing to work for it, it becomes another point of an advantage.

I'm under no illusion about changing Stevens mind but at the same time, when immersion is a phrase that is thrown around everywhere and great lengths are taken in other areas to help build immersion if feels like a cop out to not follow through. Plus I gave a few examples of how to make the ammo crafting far less inconvenient and burdensome.

CROW3

Rhorden wrote: »

1) The first point is an opinion either way, I get that. I played WoW for much longer than I'd care to admit and loved wpvp. I made tons of ammo thought it was a mismanaged move, among other things, when they took it out.

Same. Mained a Hunter for 16 years. It was a lovely day when I had an extra set of bag spaces and didn’t run out of arrows a few hours into a raid.

2) I didn't know that. I didn't see anything happen to the rangers bottom bar in the live feed. Didn't hear anything said about it either. I will watch it a second time to see if I missed something.

You won’t see it in the demo, because the Ranger archetype isn’t complete. They were showing off basic ranged attacks and threw some of the active Ranger abilities in. The class isn’t done by a long shot.

3) I do think there is potential there for something cool. Would be interesting if IS would entertain that.

Totally agree here. I imagine something between Wolcen (I recommend if you haven’t tried and like ARPGs) and Assassin’s Creed.

4) This one we disagree. If you want better gear, weapons, recipes, skills etc. you have to work for it in MMOs. Why should the arrows you shoot be different? Arrows and the bow work as one. It's a weapon system. As far as downsides, in wpvp there were a lot of people that got to experience the upsides of better ammo. Taking time to craft better ammo when others wont leads to higher dps than theirs. It's only a downside for people that don't want it, or to be bothered by it. For those that do want it and are willing to work for it, it becomes another point of an advantage.

It’s fine that we disagree. Though, it’s really your characterization of those that disagree with including ammo as ‘lazy’ and ‘not working for it’ that caught my eye.

Frankly, it’s just an awkward judgement to toss out there. Players are going to be earning their gear in Ashes. The best gear is going to be crafted and mats are going to be highly contested in the open world. So it’s not like eliminating arrows from a quiver is suddenly equivalent to handing out welfare epics. Idk, man - carrying ammunition seems like an odd hill to die on in a game that brings so much to the table.

But it’s your call - c’est la vie.

ariatras

You use WoW as an example against ammunition, where as I would argue the opposite.

By the time arrows, and reagents in general were removed it was removed because the way the game was played had shifted, a lot.

There was now a green button you kept pressing, possibly whilst questing that teleported you to dungeons, and then neatly back to where you were afterwards so you could continue. It got streamlined, and as little time "wasted" as possible.

Back when ammunition (and reagents) were a thing, you had to not only travel to a dungeon (which you'll do in Ashes I believe?) but also prepare, you wanted to make sure you have time to play, first and foremost. Then you made sure you were repaired and are stocked up on the items you'll need. Warlocks had to farm soul shards, rogues had to prepare poisons, using a myriad of ingredients. You ideally wanted to meet up and head out together. The preparation was part of the fantasy.
Now, I don't think you need ammunition, reagents etc to have the things mentioned here. But I do think they add to the experience. There is something innately magical about going to the city to prepare for a big adventure (to me at least) and things that take away from that I really don't like.

Sapiverenus

WoW stagnated in WotLK then died thereafter. The problem was WotLK.
People want an immersive world not a 'game'.
If you think otherwise you're no different from Blizzard (which crashed the ship LOL)

NoMadder

Speaking from experience of being a Ranger in New World, where they do have different types of craftable ammo I do agree.

However it is very important that ammo weighs 0 in your local inventory, else ranger types are at a massive disadvantage to others. This is how New World now do it (after many complaints) and it works well.

However it is also important that there is not too much difference. A high tier arrow should not be able to do 4x times the damage of a low tier arrow. The multipliers should be more like 1x - 1.30x. Making low tier arrows perfectly viable.

A far more interesting addition to this would be to add damage type modifiers. I.e. Fire arrows, ice arrows, steel arrows, lightning arrows, poison arrow, etc.. etc.. This would allow for many different types of builds that perhaps are better suited to different battle situations.

Asgerr

@Rhorden

The one issue I have with all of your idea? It seems to hinder only one class.

Would you have a Fighter needing to sharpen his weapons in order to even use his basic attack? Would you have a Mage having to run back to town to regain his MP in order to user basic attacks? Would you have a Bard go back to town to buy strings for his Lute in order to do basic attacks? Do you have a Cleric going back to town to attend mass to regain MP and go sharpen his weapons too, in order to use any basic attack or skills?

If we're going to apply this to the Ranger, it should then be applied to all classes, or the Ranger somehow ends up being that one class which inexcusably needs to spend far more money than any other to function.

And if you apply it to all classes, where do you draw the line? Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?

That is not fun gameplay. It's cool RP-wise, but it makes for incredibly tedious gameplay and just prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back.

prymortal

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 & New World both had AMMO. Both showed people who can't think the problems & reasons its not needed. From time, effort & cost other classes didn't have, To running out in battle - Later patched in New World due to Hindsight when in fact if you just took a second to think about it in the first place it could of been avoided.

If you have not played those 2 games, be thankful, There are reasons they are failures & ammo is just 1 of them.

Asgerr

prymortal wrote: »

Final Fantasy XIV 1.0 & New World both had AMMO. Both showed people who can't think the problems & reasons its not needed. From time, effort & cost other classes didn't have, To running out in battle - Later patched in New World due to Hindsight when in fact if you just took a second to think about it in the first place it could of been avoided.

If you have not played those 2 games, be thankful, There are reasons they are failures & ammo is just 1 of them.

Final Fantasy XIV a failure? Lol. We found the WoW Andy (who btw also had ammo up to a certain expansion)

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