Noaani wrote: » Sapiverenus wrote: » Maybe because devs listen to those that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and want to actively push out certain demographics and genre enjoyers out of their game? I agree. Those people trying to push myself and others like me out of the game by saying we shouldn't/can't use trackers really need to stop just thinking about themselves, and think about how others like to enjoy MMO's. The genre would be so much better if they just let people enjoy the game the way they want, rather than these people forcing their opinion of how to enjoy MMO's on to everyone.
Sapiverenus wrote: » Maybe because devs listen to those that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and want to actively push out certain demographics and genre enjoyers out of their game?
Pappasalt wrote: » I decided to check out the forums, why is there a 176 page discussion on a dps meter? lol. Why would there be a discussion on having more info? Don't want to use one, then don't. Don't want to be held to one, don't group with people that will. Pretty simple lol. I guess I should add to this, as a raid/guild leader of 15-20 years now....we NEED information...the more information the better. You don't have to join a guild, group, etc with people who are going to hold you to it. But a game without information, especially at the top end and harder difficult things...will be a mess. Best example these days being warcraft logs in combination with something like wow analyzer so I can see how people are performing, what is being missed mechanics wise, and what we can do to improve each attempt to actually complete the content.
Sapiverenus wrote: » If it affects the game for everyone by making it easily exploited, offering an advantage to one side over another, it's not just about preference. It's about you getting an advantage. And it's about lazy design. We've been over this several times but you don't give a shit about anyone else.
Deadfool wrote: » Due to the fact that Ashes of Creation won't be and never will be a pay to win game, i think that DPS meters would be redundant. I don't think you will see a high end geared player that does not know how to play their class properly or perform poorly. This is the case in all the pay to win games, where a player would just buy his way to epic gear but he doesn't know how to play his character properly due to lack of experience actually playing the character and going trough the grinding proccess to obtain his gear. You, as a guild or raid leader should be experienced enough to be able to tell if a certain individuals gear is sufficient enough for a certain raid and should not rely on a number that a DPS meter says. DPS meters are a good tool for an individual, but they actually hurt the game in a long run and should not exist in any mmorpg. A good leader is observant and relies on his leadership skills and not on a number that a DPS meter says. We live in an erra where all the information is just handed to us and we got spoiled by it, instead of working hard towards our common goal together. Some Leaders NEED the information to be handed to them, but some Leaders work very hard to get the same positive outcome. DPS meters create unnecessary tensions between players and also creates a room for a guild of pure dominance over another guild/raid/player/siege, etc... This is not going to be a popular comment, but i really don't care because i am making a valid point here. If you fail to complete a content, use your own brain to analyse what went wrong, make adjustments and try again. This is a case of "use what you got and get me some results" type of a thing. If anyone needs further explanation on why DPS meters shouldn't exist in a MMORPG, there are a few videos about it on YouTube. If i insulted anyone with this comment, i apologize. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings (or your ego). EDIT: I would also like to say that i will not reply to any toxic retaliation to my comment. I have made my point loud and clear on why DPS meters should not exist in any mmorpg. Some people just can't perform well without using one, but this shouldn't be a whole communitys problem knowing that there are people that can't think for themselves and can't properly lead without something like a DPS meter.
Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed.
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Due to the fact that Ashes of Creation won't be and never will be a pay to win game, i think that DPS meters would be redundant. I don't think you will see a high end geared player that does not know how to play their class properly or perform poorly. This is the case in all the pay to win games, where a player would just buy his way to epic gear but he doesn't know how to play his character properly due to lack of experience actually playing the character and going trough the grinding proccess to obtain his gear. You, as a guild or raid leader should be experienced enough to be able to tell if a certain individuals gear is sufficient enough for a certain raid and should not rely on a number that a DPS meter says. DPS meters are a good tool for an individual, but they actually hurt the game in a long run and should not exist in any mmorpg. A good leader is observant and relies on his leadership skills and not on a number that a DPS meter says. We live in an erra where all the information is just handed to us and we got spoiled by it, instead of working hard towards our common goal together. Some Leaders NEED the information to be handed to them, but some Leaders work very hard to get the same positive outcome. DPS meters create unnecessary tensions between players and also creates a room for a guild of pure dominance over another guild/raid/player/siege, etc... This is not going to be a popular comment, but i really don't care because i am making a valid point here. If you fail to complete a content, use your own brain to analyse what went wrong, make adjustments and try again. This is a case of "use what you got and get me some results" type of a thing. If anyone needs further explanation on why DPS meters shouldn't exist in a MMORPG, there are a few videos about it on YouTube. If i insulted anyone with this comment, i apologize. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings (or your ego). EDIT: I would also like to say that i will not reply to any toxic retaliation to my comment. I have made my point loud and clear on why DPS meters should not exist in any mmorpg. Some people just can't perform well without using one, but this shouldn't be a whole communitys problem knowing that there are people that can't think for themselves and can't properly lead without something like a DPS meter. I think you are looking at this discussion from the perspective of a combat tracker only being a DPS measuring tool. That is not the case, and I am of the opinion that Steven named this thread the way he did on purpose to skew the discussion away from full combat trackers (which is what the discussion has always been about - long before this thread was created). DPS meters do indeed have something of a negative connotation to them due to their one dimensional nature, and I believe Steven purposely used that to manipulate this discussion, at least somewhat. However, this discussion is about combat trackers. As probably the biggest proponent for combat trackers on these forums, I actually agree with your post if we were limiting our discussion to just DPS meters. I actually dont see much of a point to them at all. However, a full combat tracker has uses outside of measuring just DPS, there are essentially four main uses for a combat tracker. The first is measuring individual performance, as you have talked about above. This isnt necessarily must about whether a player is good enough or not, more often than not (in my experience) it is used for a player to measure their own improvement. A good MMO should have near infinite room for personal improvement for those that want to take that route. The second use is understanding encounters. If an encounter is actually good, exactly what is going on wont be obvious at all. A good encounter is kind of like the developers creating a puzzle for players. A combat tracker allows you to see the picture on each piece, while not having a tracker essentially means the picture is hidden from you. While it is possible to complete a puzzle with the picture hidden, if you look at such puzzles they are always smaller, less interesting and less popular than a regular puzzle where participants are able to see the picture as they are assembling. Third, it allows players to compare. This could be items, it could be character builds, it could be group or raid builds - more likely, it will be combinations of all three. Again talking about a good MMO, it should not always be immediately obvious which piece of gear out of two is best. A combat tracker will help you with this. The last major use for a combat tracker is in checking developers work. You may well look at some of the points above and go "just look at the tooltips on your abilities to see what an item does". For pure DPS, you may well think that is valid. However, it is only valid if the information on tooltips is accurate. I have yet to play an MMO where tooltip information has always been accurate - and a combat tracker is the only viable way us players have to check that. This last point is the most important in my opinion. To me, any developer wanting to prevent trackers in their game is doing so in order to hide something. There is something in their combat system they do not want players to find. This is why actual thousands of potential players stepped away from looking at this game when Steven first mentioned they will not support trackers (along with giving him the message "fuck you", which I was lucky enough to deliver on their behalf). Those players simply assumed that if a developer didn't actively want their players to use trackers (not even talking about actually not wanting it), then that developer is clearly hiding something. Since top end players do not trust MMO developers at all, that was all they needed to nope right out of the game.
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed. This is something I have gone in to far more detail than I would want to go in. A software developer can only prevent you from using tools that interact with their software. Since combat trackers are generally stand alone applications, they cant do anything about it. Further to this point, a combat tracker doesnt even need to be run while the game client is being run. It is perfectly viable to run a tracker after the fact - it is also viable to run it on a different computer to the one the game client is on. I am sure you would agree that software running on a totally different computer is out of the scope of any terms of service for any software.
Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed. This is something I have gone in to far more detail than I would want to go in. A software developer can only prevent you from using tools that interact with their software. Since combat trackers are generally stand alone applications, they cant do anything about it. Further to this point, a combat tracker doesnt even need to be run while the game client is being run. It is perfectly viable to run a tracker after the fact - it is also viable to run it on a different computer to the one the game client is on. I am sure you would agree that software running on a totally different computer is out of the scope of any terms of service for any software. Yep, i completely agree. But as you mentioned before, they are not completely accurate. In some cases they are straight up terrible xD
Strevi wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Sapiverenus it will also give you a chance to get your account suspended for a certain period of time if 3rd party tools wouldn't be allowed. This is something I have gone in to far more detail than I would want to go in. A software developer can only prevent you from using tools that interact with their software. Since combat trackers are generally stand alone applications, they cant do anything about it. Further to this point, a combat tracker doesnt even need to be run while the game client is being run. It is perfectly viable to run a tracker after the fact - it is also viable to run it on a different computer to the one the game client is on. I am sure you would agree that software running on a totally different computer is out of the scope of any terms of service for any software. Yep, i completely agree. But as you mentioned before, they are not completely accurate. In some cases they are straight up terrible xD You seem to be familiar with them and at the same time happy to being terrible. You don't miss them?
Aerlana wrote: » Strevi wrote: » Does it feel like playing a puzzle game too? I don't play puzzle game. or not a lot. Not sure what you think when asking it so.
Strevi wrote: » Does it feel like playing a puzzle game too?
Noaani wrote: » The second use is understanding encounters. If an encounter is actually good, exactly what is going on wont be obvious at all. A good encounter is kind of like the developers creating a puzzle for players. A combat tracker allows you to see the picture on each piece, while not having a tracker essentially means the picture is hidden from you. While it is possible to complete a puzzle with the picture hidden, if you look at such puzzles they are always smaller, less interesting and less popular than a regular puzzle where participants are able to see the picture as they are assembling.
Deadfool wrote: » If they decide to include combat tracker in the game, i will use it because you can't be and stay competitive without using one when other competitive players do. Again, thank you for the awsome comment!
Noaani wrote: » This last point is the most important in my opinion. To me, any developer wanting to prevent trackers in their game is doing so in order to hide something. There is something in their combat system they do not want players to find. This is why actual thousands of potential players stepped away from looking at this game when Steven first mentioned they will not support trackers (along with giving him the message "fuck you", which I was lucky enough to deliver on their behalf). Those players simply assumed that if a developer didn't actively want their players to use trackers (not even talking about actually not wanting it), then that developer is clearly hiding something. Since top end players do not trust MMO developers at all, that was all they needed to nope right out of the game.
Strevi wrote: » What could they hide?
Noaani wrote: » Strevi wrote: » What could they hide? Poor development. Look at FFXIV and tanking. That was poor development. Some developers dont like it when their players point out their mistakes. It doesnt matter how big or small that mistake is, they just dont like it. Other developers like it when this happens, as it gives them an opportunity to make the game better, and offers them the ability to become better developers by working out how said mistake happened, and endeavouring to prevent it happening again.
Strevi wrote: » @Aerlana this
Noaani wrote: » Deadfool wrote: » Due to the fact that Ashes of Creation won't be and never will be a pay to win game, i think that DPS meters would be redundant. I don't think you will see a high end geared player that does not know how to play their class properly or perform poorly. This is the case in all the pay to win games, where a player would just buy his way to epic gear but he doesn't know how to play his character properly due to lack of experience actually playing the character and going trough the grinding proccess to obtain his gear. You, as a guild or raid leader should be experienced enough to be able to tell if a certain individuals gear is sufficient enough for a certain raid and should not rely on a number that a DPS meter says. DPS meters are a good tool for an individual, but they actually hurt the game in a long run and should not exist in any mmorpg. A good leader is observant and relies on his leadership skills and not on a number that a DPS meter says. We live in an erra where all the information is just handed to us and we got spoiled by it, instead of working hard towards our common goal together. Some Leaders NEED the information to be handed to them, but some Leaders work very hard to get the same positive outcome. DPS meters create unnecessary tensions between players and also creates a room for a guild of pure dominance over another guild/raid/player/siege, etc... This is not going to be a popular comment, but i really don't care because i am making a valid point here. If you fail to complete a content, use your own brain to analyse what went wrong, make adjustments and try again. This is a case of "use what you got and get me some results" type of a thing. If anyone needs further explanation on why DPS meters shouldn't exist in a MMORPG, there are a few videos about it on YouTube. If i insulted anyone with this comment, i apologize. It was never my intention to hurt your feelings (or your ego). EDIT: I would also like to say that i will not reply to any toxic retaliation to my comment. I have made my point loud and clear on why DPS meters should not exist in any mmorpg. Some people just can't perform well without using one, but this shouldn't be a whole communitys problem knowing that there are people that can't think for themselves and can't properly lead without something like a DPS meter. I think you are looking at this discussion from the perspective of a combat tracker only being a DPS measuring tool. That is not the case, and I am of the opinion that Steven named this thread the way he did on purpose to skew the discussion away from full combat trackers (which is what the discussion has always been about - long before this thread was created). DPS meters do indeed have something of a negative connotation to them due to their one dimensional nature, and I believe Steven purposely used that to manipulate this discussion, at least somewhat. However, this discussion is about combat trackers. As probably the biggest proponent for combat trackers on these forums, I actually agree with your post if we were limiting our discussion to just DPS meters. I actually dont see much of a point to them at all. However, a full combat tracker has uses outside of measuring just DPS, there are essentially four main uses for a combat tracker. The first is measuring individual performance, as you have talked about above. This isnt necessarily must about whether a player is good enough or not, more often than not (in my experience) it is used for a player to measure their own improvement. A good MMO should have near infinite room for personal improvement for those that want to take that route.
Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear?
SongRune wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I don't think games allow infinite room for improvement. I know speed runners find better ways to defeat records in games and this happens over decades. But normal players cannot invest that much effort and time. They rather start over on a new mmo. If trackers speed up the discovery process, that reduces the time players spend in the game, isn't it? What will keep the players in game when they have top gear? Node advancement, guild conflict, empire expansion, claiming or holding their Castle. That's the intent for Ashes, anyway.
