Hybrid combat (false?) expectations

(Please avoid discussing about which combat system is 'better'.. this thread is not about that. There are other threads already discussing this)

I am a bit surprised by the reaction to the latest stream.

The definition of hybrid combat is fluid. Each gamer/company defines hybrid combat in a different way.

What matters for AoC is Intrepid's and more specifically Steven's definition.

For Steven, hybrid combat is when you have in your ability bar both tab abilities & action abilities.
He comments on combat & tab/action abilities in the following interview: https://youtu.be/UBLHesEpUMI?t=2355

In AoC there are NOT two different combat systems from which you will be able to choose your preferred one.
There is one combat system and the only thing you can choose atm, is if you are going to aim with a reticle or not.

So, you don't have a tab system and an action system.. you have a hybrid system (as defined by Steven) with an aiming option on top.

However, after the latest stream, some of the feedback was like:
Steven: showcases ranger that complies with everything he has said over the years about the hybrid combat system
Players with other hybrid combat definitions: surprised pikachu face

To paraphrase Ramsay Bolton: If you were expecting something different, you haven't been paying attention

This has been their plan for a long time now and I assume they believe that it's the best approach in order to achieve their goal of 250vs250 battles.

Wanting something different is totally respected, but expecting something different after all the information we were given through the years is nonsensical.

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Dolyem

Dummo

[Deleted]

kanersen

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

You don't know that and in general, most won't until they play the game.

I can think of plenty of uses for using tab targeting my main enemy and switching over to action combat for incoming enemies that show up impromptu on my screen without having to de-select my main target.

Even I don't know if this is feasible without actually playing the game but to say that the aiming option is worthless is worthless input.

Dummo

kanersen wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

You don't know that and in general, most won't until they play the game.

I can think of plenty of uses for using tab targeting my main enemy and switching over to action combat for incoming enemies that show up impromptu on my screen without having to de-select my main target.

Even I don't know if this is feasible without actually playing the game but to say that the aiming option is worthless is worthless input.

Obviously all the feedback given at this moment is based on the information given at this moment. And in my imagination your scenario wouldn't work out, since your attacks will still go towards your tab targeted main enemy. It's tab target, reticle or not. But ofcourse, there may be mechanics we do not know about or they will change, so in that regard any feedback is not relevant.

Diamaht

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

Nah, it'll get used. Just off the top of my head I can see it coming in very usefull for:
1) Firing into a crowd of players,
2) I can see it being useful for attacking castle walls without the players ducking out of site to break a tab lock
3) I can see it being useful to line up an anticipated shot (ie if a target is traveling in a direction I can predict I'll just shoot where I think he'll be instead of having to "lock on" with a tab target)
4) I can see it being useful when someone ducks in and out of cover to break my targeting (again I'll just shoot where he will be if I can spot a pattern).
5) I can see it being useful for placing AoE where ever I like instead of having to center on a target or even be able to see them.

All of these things will take a lot of practice, but they can be done and they change the dynamic of combat and I think will give corresponding reward for that effort. Its not a twitch aim system like in FPS (I don't want that in an MMO) but it most certainly adds an element of skill for those who choose to pursue it.

Liniker

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

lmao what about melee basic weapon attacks? should they add a tab target mode as well to make it fair? because they are 100% action with no tab option

just Shut up with this shit already we are ONLY talking about BASIC ATTACKS - the class SKILLS will be balanced between tab and action not the basic attacks......

We already are getting Action camera with soft lock for ranged attacks that's MORE then tab players are getting for melee so Stop crying and asking for incentives before they end up just removing it wtf...

the game director already said they lean more to Tab Target this will NEVER be an action based hybrid you can either accept it or go play New World

MybroViajero

I mean, as a former BDO Harcore player I feel that AoC is on the right path to get that hybrid combat.
I really liked what I saw, a fluid, constant and controllable combat and not something chaotic, desperate as NW or in some cases BDO.
I understand that AoC combat is intended to be a cooperative combat that in order to achieve 250 vs 250 or even 500 vs 500 it is necessary to have a more controllable and fluid combat than chaotic and fast.

I'm very glad that Intrepid is going their own way, inspired by several MMORPGS but without trying to copy anyone and improving the combat style that they think will be the best for AoC.

Dummo

Diamaht wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

Nah, it'll get used. Just off the top of my head I can see it coming in very usefull for:
1) Firing into a crowd of players,
2) I can see it being useful for attacking castle walls without the players ducking out of site to break a tab lock
3) I can see it being useful to line up an anticipated shot (ie if a target is traveling in a direction I can predict I'll just shoot where I think he'll be instead of having to "lock on" with a tab target)
4) I can see it being useful when someone ducks in and out of cover to break my targeting (again I'll just shoot where he will be if I can spot a pattern).
5) I can see it being useful for placing AoE where ever I like instead of having to center on a target or even be able to see them.

All of these things will take a lot of practice, but they can be done and they change the dynamic of combat and I think will give corresponding reward for that effort. Its not a twitch aim system like in FPS (I don't want that in an MMO) but it most certainly adds an element of skill for those who choose to pursue it.

From that perspective I see why it might be nice to have both options.

Dummo

Liniker wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

lmao what about melee basic weapon attacks? should they add a tab target mode as well to make it fair? because they are 100% action with no tab option

just Shut up with this shit already we are ONLY talking about BASIC ATTACKS - the class SKILLS will be balanced between tab and action not the basic attacks......

We already are getting Action camera with soft lock for ranged attacks that's MORE then tab players are getting for melee so Stop crying and asking for incentives before they end up just removing it wtf...

the game director already said they lean more to Tab Target this will NEVER be an action based hybrid you can either accept it or go play New World

Everywhere you comment you're so aggressive lmao.

Melee might actually be at a disadvantage with no tab targeting. Let's hope they'll balance it well. I like the direction they're going with the hybrid combat though. I actually don't want an action combat mode like New World's, that is just your assumption. Nor am I asking for - or do I want Intrepid to add - an incentive to use the reticle camera mode, as I even mentioned in the message you're replying to already (which I deleted because I changed my opinion about the combat system Ashes is going for, positively).

Diamaht

Dummo wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

Nah, it'll get used. Just off the top of my head I can see it coming in very usefull for:
1) Firing into a crowd of players,
2) I can see it being useful for attacking castle walls without the players ducking out of site to break a tab lock
3) I can see it being useful to line up an anticipated shot (ie if a target is traveling in a direction I can predict I'll just shoot where I think he'll be instead of having to "lock on" with a tab target)
4) I can see it being useful when someone ducks in and out of cover to break my targeting (again I'll just shoot where he will be if I can spot a pattern).
5) I can see it being useful for placing AoE where ever I like instead of having to center on a target or even be able to see them.

All of these things will take a lot of practice, but they can be done and they change the dynamic of combat and I think will give corresponding reward for that effort. Its not a twitch aim system like in FPS (I don't want that in an MMO) but it most certainly adds an element of skill for those who choose to pursue it.

Those scenarios are very situational, generally tab targeting will be used. But from that perspective I see why it might be nice to have both options.

Exactly, it will be a really nice tool in the belt. It adds a big layer of creativity to your combat options.

Diamaht

Sorry for double post.

As for melee the opposite becomes true I think. Having your damage swings hit everything in the arc is a big boost for melee and could be the default for handling large groups of mobs in a dungeon or during mass combat during a seige. It helps a lot for managing aggro and spreading damage to increase DPS.

Tab then becomes important when having to focus on a target. You don't want a scenario where people will just sprint in circles around a melee to avoid hits (I've played games like this and its terrible). If they can just tab you, you will just get swatted down.

maouw

Diamaht wrote: »

Sorry for double post.

As for melee the opposite becomes true I think. Having your damage swings hit everything in the arc is a big boost for melee and could be the default for handling large groups of mobs in a dungeon or during mass combat during a seige. It helps a lot for managing aggro and spreading damage to increase DPS.

Tab then becomes important when having to focus on a target. You don't want a scenario where people will just sprint in circles around a melee to avoid hits (I've played games like this and its terrible). If they can just tab you, you will just get swatted down.

Doubleposting is fine here, the rules aren't super strict coz we haven't had anyone testing boundaries yet.

I disagree with this logic because MoBAs have shown plenty of combat that doesn't suffer this issue.

That said, this reaction from people expecting more from hybrid could have been avoided if they also showcased 1 template skill that you can aim (something like a Jhin W). That literally would have been enough - but Steven only talked about it (nothing to show) and I don't think the overreactors were listening.

Azherae

maouw wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Sorry for double post.

As for melee the opposite becomes true I think. Having your damage swings hit everything in the arc is a big boost for melee and could be the default for handling large groups of mobs in a dungeon or during mass combat during a seige. It helps a lot for managing aggro and spreading damage to increase DPS.

Tab then becomes important when having to focus on a target. You don't want a scenario where people will just sprint in circles around a melee to avoid hits (I've played games like this and its terrible). If they can just tab you, you will just get swatted down.

Doubleposting is fine here, the rules aren't super strict coz we haven't had anyone testing boundaries yet.

I disagree with this logic because MoBAs have shown plenty of combat that doesn't suffer this issue.

That said, this reaction from people expecting more from hybrid could have been avoided if they also showcased 1 template skill that you can aim (something like a Jhin W). That literally would have been enough - but Steven only talked about it (nothing to show) and I don't think the overreactors were listening.

I don't really think it would have been avoided.

I needed to explain to a friend today that the difference between what she thinks 'Tab Target' is, and what most people experience, is quite high. Same for 'Action Combat' vs what some people think it is.

That spectrum is very wide. Some people who were definitely always 'Action Combat' before are more to the middle, so they're currently reacting strongly to those who want Darkfall levels of combat. I don't think the 'Darkfall' tier of people would necessarily have been appeased by a template skill.

I think they're looking for stuff like the 10:50 mark of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_2XDU0T1FY

Literal no-lock or weak soft-lock skillshot play as a primary concept.

LordBlank

Dummo wrote: »

In that case, might as well remove the aiming option. It won't be used as long as a full tab targeting option is in place, unless they add an incentive to use the reticle, which I don't think is a good route to take.

here's an incentive, add gravity to projectiles. the ability to free aim in action mode means you can shoot in the air(whatever the max range for basic attacks on long and short bows) and have that arrow come back down to the grown. Thin mean action combat players, if they are good enough can shoot targets who are behind a rock or they can shoot from behind cover. Again this will be skill based since the ranger abilities we saw had a set animation/path. Only basic range attacks would be able to utilize this and it doesn't rely on hard targeting someone.

Liniker

Dummo wrote: »

But in my opinion tab targeting should be removed, leaving the hybrid combat mode.

I'm sorry if the way I type is agressive, but you have absolutely no idea how the combat works and what you are saying is just nonsense.

There is no tab target combat - there is only 1 combat system in this game and it's called hybrid combat... all the game's combat is hybrid. You only chose to change the Camera mode to Action mode or Tab mode, and that affect the Targeting.... that's it.

And we only saw a demonstration of Basic Weapon attacks so pls use your brain. You are doing the same thing as all the people during the melee demonstration that said the game went Action.

LordBlank

Liniker wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

But in my opinion tab targeting should be removed, leaving the hybrid combat mode.

I'm sorry if the way I type is agressive, but you have absolutely no idea how the combat works and what you are saying is just nonsense.

There is no tab target combat - there is only 1 combat system in this game and it's called hybrid combat... all the game's combat is hybrid. You only chose to change the Camera mode to Action mode or Tab mode. That's it.

And we only saw was a demonstration of Basic Weapon attacks so pls use your brain. You are doing the same thing as all the people during the melee demonstration that said the game went Action.[/quote

Liniker wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

But in my opinion tab targeting should be removed, leaving the hybrid combat mode.

I'm sorry if the way I type is agressive, but you have absolutely no idea how the combat works and what you are saying is just nonsense.

There is no tab target combat - there is only 1 combat system in this game and it's called hybrid combat... all the game's combat is hybrid. You only chose to change the Camera mode to Action mode or Tab mode, and that affect the Targeting.... that's it.

And we only saw a demonstration of Basic Weapon attacks so pls use your brain. You are doing the same thing as all the people during the melee demonstration that said the game went Action.

You are not being fully truthful. It is a hybrid system but in the recent video Steven distinctly said when he was playing in tab target mode and when he was playing in action. To claim there is no tab target mode if just false. You are either lying or don't know what you are talking about

Liniker

LordBlank wrote: »

You are not being fully truthful. It is a hybrid system but in the recent video Steven distinctly said when he was playing in tab target mode and when he was playing in action. To claim there is no tab target mode if just false. You are either lying or don't know what you are talking about

Steven switched between the 2 Targeting/Camera Modes inside of the game's Hybrid combat.

The guy i replied, said people will only play the "hybrid combat" and not the "tab combat" in Ashes.

The game's Combat is Hybrid.

In the hybrid combat - you can switch between Action and Tab mode

that changes the targeting mode, camera mode, and affects your Ranged basic attacks to go from Hard Target to Soft Target (both work exactly the same once targeted - difference is only on How you acquire the target)

I don't think I need to draw.

LordBlank

Liniker wrote: »

LordBlank wrote: »

You are not being fully truthful. It is a hybrid system but in the recent video Steven distinctly said when he was playing in tab target mode and when he was playing in action. To claim there is no tab target mode if just false. You are either lying or don't know what you are talking about

Steven switched between the 2 Targeting/Camera Modes inside of the game's Hybrid combat.

The guy i replied, said people will only play the "hybrid combat" and not the "tab combat" in Ashes.

The game's Combat is Hybrid.

In the hybrid combat - you can switch between Action and Tab mode

that changes the targeting mode, camera mode, and affects your Ranged basic attacks to go from Hard Target to Soft Target (both work exactly the same once targeted - difference is only on How you acquire the target)

I don't think I need to draw.

Oh nevermind then. We're basically saying the same thing

maouw

Azherae wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

Diamaht wrote: »

Sorry for double post.

As for melee the opposite becomes true I think. Having your damage swings hit everything in the arc is a big boost for melee and could be the default for handling large groups of mobs in a dungeon or during mass combat during a seige. It helps a lot for managing aggro and spreading damage to increase DPS.

Tab then becomes important when having to focus on a target. You don't want a scenario where people will just sprint in circles around a melee to avoid hits (I've played games like this and its terrible). If they can just tab you, you will just get swatted down.

Doubleposting is fine here, the rules aren't super strict coz we haven't had anyone testing boundaries yet.

I disagree with this logic because MoBAs have shown plenty of combat that doesn't suffer this issue.

That said, this reaction from people expecting more from hybrid could have been avoided if they also showcased 1 template skill that you can aim (something like a Jhin W). That literally would have been enough - but Steven only talked about it (nothing to show) and I don't think the overreactors were listening.

I don't really think it would have been avoided.

I needed to explain to a friend today that the difference between what she thinks 'Tab Target' is, and what most people experience, is quite high. Same for 'Action Combat' vs what some people think it is.

That spectrum is very wide. Some people who were definitely always 'Action Combat' before are more to the middle, so they're currently reacting strongly to those who want Darkfall levels of combat. I don't think the 'Darkfall' tier of people would necessarily have been appeased by a template skill.

I think they're looking for stuff like the 10:50 mark of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_2XDU0T1FY

Literal no-lock or weak soft-lock skillshot play as a primary concept.

Yeah, that's closer to what I wanted - but I've been tempering my expectations knowing that Steven leans more toward tab.
I think if they showed a free-aim ranged template skill, that would at least imply that a projectile can spatially miss, thus break the impression that all projectiles will home on a target.

Goalid

NaughtyBrute wrote: »

(Please avoid discussing about which combat system is 'better'.. this thread is not about that. There are other threads already discussing this)

I am a bit surprised by the reaction to the latest stream.

The definition of hybrid combat is fluid. Each gamer/company defines hybrid combat in a different way.

What matters for AoC is Intrepid's and more specifically Steven's definition.

For Steven, hybrid combat is when you have in your ability bar both tab abilities & action abilities.
He comments on combat & tab/action abilities in the following interview: https://youtu.be/UBLHesEpUMI?t=2355

In AoC there are NOT two different combat systems from which you will be able to choose your preferred one.
There is one combat system and the only thing you can choose atm, is if you are going to aim with a reticle or not.

So, you don't have a tab system and an action system.. you have a hybrid system (as defined by Steven) with an aiming option on top.

However, after the latest stream, some of the feedback was like:
Steven: showcases ranger that complies with everything he has said over the years about the hybrid combat system
Players with other hybrid combat definitions: surprised pikachu face

To paraphrase Ramsay Bolton: If you were expecting something different, you haven't been paying attention

This has been their plan for a long time now and I assume they believe that it's the best approach in order to achieve their goal of 250vs250 battles.

Wanting something different is totally respected, but expecting something different after all the information we were given through the years is nonsensical.

I'm a bit surprised watching the YouTube clip twice now. I was expecting to find a quote from Steven saying that "hybrid combat means to us having both tab and action skills, and we're leaning towards tab for basic attacks." But instead just got a definition from Steven saying that tab is when a skill requires a target, and action is when you place down a skill or choose the direction of the skill freely.

I think a person hearing Ashes is going to be "hybrid between action and tab" and then seeing a Livestream where a hard lock is pretty much the only viable basic attack option, is right to be surprised by this Livestream. On top of that, the skills shown off by the Livestream doesn't inspire confidence in the direction for skills from the ranger class, most people I've talked to are surprised an ability like Snipe isn't aimed.

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