DPS Meter Megathread

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Sapiverenus

@Noaani

So do you want combat feedback part of the HUDless game, integrated into the mechanics and basic visual and audio feedback of the game. . . or not?

And do you want perks for in-game characters to have unique information gathering advantages such as 'Inspect' or not?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani

So do you want combat feedback part of the HUDless game, integrated into the mechanics and basic visual and audio feedback of the game. . . or not?

As I literally just said in the above post, every player should be able to decide that for them self.

Why am i taking time to answer your questions when you both refuse to answer anyone else's, and dont even read the fucking answers when we give them to you?

Sapiverenus

So do you want the HUDless game to have deep combat feedback, integrated into the mechanics and natural audio-visual feedback or not?

edit: Are you OK with this even if it confers an advantage OVER those using a tracker?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

So do you want the HUDless game to have deep combat feedback, integrated into the mechanics and natural audio-visual feedback or not?

At this point, I think you may be the first person on any forum I have ever reported for trolling. I've answered this question twice in two posts.

If you do not like or understand my answer, ask for clarification.

Sapiverenus

You word and define things in your own introverted robotic way referring to your own thoughts and perceptions only.

I'm asking about the HUDless combat feedback.

Yes or no.

Strevi

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Anyway, until AoC comes out we will see other attempts too, like the Throne and Liberty mmo. Maybe they have new ideas about this. Or maybe they delayed the release because they follow this thread and we found no solution yet

Why would Throne and Liberty bother to make Trackers unavailable though?

For a game to do this, they would have to think it matters for some reason. Since that's not actually an obvious conclusion to everyone (particularly not Korean MMO creators), they might just... not care at all about parser/tracker options.

These rooms would also solve the problem when owning intelligent androids sometime in 100 years will be a common thing... until genetically modified players will be created.

If people can harm (or take fun away) using AI from other people
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/10/biden-proposes-new-bill-of-rights-to-protect-americans-from-ai-snooping/

then possibly an AI will not be allowed to play MMOs either

But playing against an AI can be fun if that is trying to offer fun.

But when is something an "AI" vs a very clever algorithm?
Can a game be complex enough to require a tracker to become very smart?
Can be cases where you as a game developer can say somebody used a very smart tracker vs an average one to beat your designed raid?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You word and define things in your own introverted robotic way referring to your own thoughts and perceptions only.

Yes or no.

Wait.

You ask my opinion on something, and then complain that my answer is referring to my own thoughts and perceptions?

Dude, that's what an opinion IS.

Which part of "every player should be able to decide that for them self" Are you having trouble understanding?

Sapiverenus

@Noaani

Your answer is a non-answer. I am asking your opinion about something specific and you're talking about your lack of opinion in general. In other words, you haven't answered the question and do not want to think about it.

I've tacked on an expansion to the question as well. Are you so passive about it if HUDless combat feedback confers an advantage over those using a tracker?

And do you want perks for in-game characters to have unique information gathering advantages such as 'Inspect' or not?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Sapiverenus wrote: »

You word and define things in your own introverted robotic way referring to your own thoughts and perceptions only.

Yes or no.

Wait.

You ask my opinion on something, and then complain that my answer is referring to my own thoughts and perceptions?

Dude, that's what an opinion IS.

Which part of "every player should be able to decide that for them self" Are you having trouble understanding?

Your answer is a non-answer. I am asking your opinion about something specific and you're talking about your lack of opinion in general.

No, it is not a lack of opinion, it is simply not an answer you want. You want a yes or no to a question, but you ask the question without forming a foundation first.

A game should not be HUDless. Since I dont agree with a foundational premise of your question, I can not answer your question with a simple yes or no. As such, I have to dissect it - which is why I asked you a question earlier that you refused to answer - making this process much harder.

You should never ask a question of someone if that question relies on a specific concept that you have not already established that the person you are asking the question of agrees with. Any such question simply can not be answered in the manner you wish it to be answered in.

So, since you have asked a question of me that I can not answer, since I fundamentally disagree with a foundation of that question, and since you seemingly refuse to enter in to actual discussion about that and simply insist on an answer to said question, all I am able to do is attempt to understand the reasoning behind the question, pull it back to before the aspect I disagree with, and then attempt to answer your question.

It is my opinion that the game and the developer should not make that decision. It should be left to the player.

Put enough animation and audio cues on mobs for players to get feedback, sure. I've said as much on these forums many times. No one should be required to rely on numerical feedback as the only feedback in a game. Some people hate numbers, and come online to an MMO to escape them. I am not and have never attempted to force my way of thinking on to such people.

However, while that audio and animation based feedback should exist, and while people shouldn't need to use numerical feedback if they do not want to, those of us that DO want to should be able to do so.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
You are lost.

Every acquiescence, every appeasement of yours never address the qualitative question I've asked you.

So do you want the HUDless game to have deep combat feedback, integrated into the mechanics and natural audio-visual feedback or not?

Are you OK with this even if it confers an advantage OVER those using a tracker?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

@Noaani
You are lost.

Every acquiescence, every appeasement of yours never address the qualitative question I've asked you.

So do you want the HUDless game to have deep combat feedback, integrated into the mechanics and natural audio-visual feedback or not?

Are you OK with this even if it confers an advantage OVER those using a tracker?

Again, you CAN NOT ask a question of someone if you have not formed a foundation. Why is the game HUDless? What does that even mean for a hybrid MMO?

Asking your question without setting a foundation is like me asking you for your opinion on who is right between Eric and Matt.

So, who do you think is right between Eric and Matt and why do you think that?

Sapiverenus

Do you want the parts of the game that are not the HUD to offer deep combat feedback, generally meaning more visual-audio feedback?
Mechanics that do what they do and not something else? Only useable in appropriate contexts?

The way things are on-screen and in your ears being closely representative of reality? No arbitrary, gimmicky, arcade stuff that throws doubt on reality? No 1 HP individual doing their Ultimate Ability, Blade Dance teleporting around dealing damage to up to 5 targets with 5 instances of damage or whatever?

Grounded Power?

Are you okay with limited information being part of this 'grounded power', letting some characters excel in information gathering and others struggle, all for the sake of Class Fantasy, Distribution of Power, Distinct Advantages and Disadvantages, giving Unique Merit, allowing for an MMO with higher Organization arising naturally from differences between individuals and the unique ways they can help one another? Necessitating organization to confront Greater Power born out of the Constraints of individuals and Unique Synergies of Cooperation? Constraints that naturally lend themself to higher orders of gameplay, of organization, of skill?

What if Tracking was useless? What if 'Grounded Power' and whatnot wasn't even a thing but Tracking was Useless? Would you hate the game and not play it?

Does a game need to have Tracking for you to play it? Does a game where Tracking is Useful, need to have Tracking for you to play it? Is it a bad game if it doesn't have Tracking and Can have Tracking, when Tracking is Useful?

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Do you want the parts of the game that are not the HUD to offer deep combat feedback, generally meaning more visual-audio feedback?
Mechanics that do what they do and not something else?
The way things are on-screen and in your ears being closely representative of reality? No arbitrary, gimmicky, arcade stuff that throws doubt on reality? No 1 HP individual doing their Ultimate Ability, Blade Dance teleporting around dealing damage to up to 5 targets with 5 instances of damage or whatever?

Grounded Power?

This part, yes.

Again, for the third or fourth time, you should be able to look at the game and see what is going on.

Are you okay with limited information being part of this 'grounded power', letting some characters excel in information gathering and others struggle, all for the sake of Class Fantasy, Distribution of Power, Distinct Advantages and Disadvantages, giving Unique Merit, allowing for an MMO with higher Organization arising naturally from differences between individuals and the unique ways they can help one another? Necessitating organization to confront Greater Power born out of the Constraints of individuals and Unique Synergies of Cooperation? Constraints that naturally lend themself to higher orders of gameplay, of organization, of skill?

This part no.

Information gathering is a function of the player, not the character. These two aspects of play should not be conflated - it always leads to a worse gaming experience when they are, not a better one.

Sapiverenus

After you answer the rest of it, tell me what game experience had limited character information and was worse for it, rather than just being a bad or deficient game overall.

Also let me know how SCUM is worse for it.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

After you answer the rest of it,

I have nothing left to answer, as we are now at the end of my opinion on the matter.

I will only ever consider a game if I would play it. If I come across a deal breaker, I will stop considering that game, and will form no more opinions on it.

As for Scum, it is a survival game, not an MMORPG. It probably is better suited to you than any MMORPG ever will be, but since it is also a game I will never consider playing I have no opinion at all on it.

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
So if tracking is useless in an MMO you won't play it?
If tracking is not available you won't play it either?

Sapiverenus

@Noaani
Would you play a game like SCUM if time to kill was higher? If you could take 2, 3, 4, 5 headshots? 15 small arms headshots?
Would you play it if the game were Ashes of Creation themed? Would that be a good game to you?

Is the character progression of SCUM bad or good in your opinion?

who am I talking to here

Mag7spy

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
So if tracking is useless in an MMO you won't play it?
If tracking is not available you won't play it either?

If an MMO developer decided that their 0layers wouldn't have access to objective data, no, I wouldn't play it.

This shouldnt be news to you, I've told you this a number of times. I mean, I know you hardly read anything, but it is something I have said in reply to you enough times that I assumed it must have made it through at some point.

But it isnt just that I wouldn't play a game without players having access to objective data. I also wouldn't play one where players are required to use a tracker.

These are not things developers should be deciding for players. They are decisions that each player should make in regards to how they wish to play a game.

Quite honestly, I am constantly shocked that people would have any objection to that at all.

Noaani

Sapiverenus wrote: »

Noaani
Would you play a game like SCUM if time to kill was higher? If you could take 2, 3, 4, 5 headshots? 15 small arms headshots?
Would you play it if the game were Ashes of Creation themed? Would that be a good game to you?

Is the character progression of SCUM bad or good in your opinion?

who am I talking to here

As I said, I have no opinion on the game.

I looked at it for literally 3 seconds, and decided it was not a game I would ever be interested in. Since forming an opinion (a valid one, at least) takes actual thought, I have no intention of ever forming an opinion on a game I know I will never play.

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