This is the kind of combat I expect to see from a modern mmorpg, full action, manual aiming/evading.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=RbZ4kHYzmBo

The PVP on this game feels really amazing, I always thought when I used to play this game on the past that this combat on an OW-PVP MMORPG would make for amazing & unforgettable battles full of adrenaline & excitement, a veteran on this game can distinguish the skill of a player just from fighting with him for a few seconds, & this is the point for me on a combat system in order to feel good, to be able to tell a good from a bad or a very skilled player when you watch him fight for a bit, a combat system on a PVP-focused game must offer to players the chance to shine & show their skills & what they could really do with their character, what I'm talking about is things like to outplay your opponent & manage to win although you are with less than 5% of your total health for the full duration of a fight & you were able to do that because you perfectly evade/block/parry all his attacks & kept your distance from him leaving him no choice to fight back because you were simple a much better & more skilled player than him.

Now can you do something like that on a game with tab-target combat where attacks & skills automatically hit a target & can't be evaded? the answer is obvious, no, it's impossible to offer this kind of PVP experience on a game that has a tab-target combat system, it's for that reason players who experience real action combat most of the times never go back to play a tab-target game ever again, after saying all that I feel the need to give a friendly advice to devs & Steven himself:

"If you stick with tab-target combat you will automatically exclude a major portion of PVP players that have quit playing tab-target mmorpg for a long time now & don't expect them to make an exception for your game because for all of them it's all about how the combat feels & if the combat doesn't feel right they won't touch a game ever, so if you really want your game to be successful & attract the vast majority of the PVP crowd out there you need to scrap entirely the outdated tab-target combat system from your game & start working on a modern full action combat system where we must manually aim all our attacks & all attacks can be evaded"

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Spodos

You action combat fans don't seem to get it - you are in the minority in the Ashes community (and also in the MMORPG) community. For some reason, you think that aiming counts as "skill" but nothing else does.

But you can have incredibly in-depth, challenging, and high skill-ceiling based combat without requiring aiming. Block skills with a limited duration that are required to be pressed at the right time, combos based on status effects, footsies based on skill ranges, status immunities and immunity breakers, etc.

For a great example of a game type that has in-depth combat but doesn't require aiming, look at literally any 2D fighting game - if you can't admit that those take skill, there's really nothing more we can talk about. You can also look at WoW's Arena Championship - yes, eSports based on tab-target combat. Would love to see you guys try to play there and quickly understand how skill-based tab-target can be.

So I've pretty much definitively proven that you don't need aiming to have skill-based combat. This leaves your last argument that you prefer the challenge of aiming to the types of skills I'm talking about. But guess what - in case you didn't notice, most of the new MMORPGs that have come out with action combat aren't doing well at all. And the focus for MMOs that are in development and have a chance of succeeding is far more towards tab-target, old-school MMOs that bring back the glory days of strategy, holy trinity, community interdependence, while leveraging some of the more modern conveniences.

The reality is that most MMORPG players don't like the challenge of aiming - the community comes from a legacy of the D&D crowd, which is all about strategy and has no twitch skills whatsoever. The desire for aiming comes from a minority of folks who play primarily FPS, but those aren't the dedicated MMO gamers. If you want to build something that will last and will have a strong community, action combat isn't it. If you want to please the Fortnite crowd until the next great fad comes along, then by all means action away...

Heartbeat

Spodos wrote: »

You action combat fans don't seem to get it - you are in the minority in the Ashes community (and also in the MMORPG) community. For some reason, you think that aiming counts as "skill" but nothing else does.

idk why you're trashing on aiming and action combat so hard, your whole post sounds unnecessarily passive aggressive, if done well action combat and aiming isnt bad. Your comments seem all over the place though, why bring up 2d games when the whole topic is about MMOs, it sounds like you're trying to describe fighting games in the second paragraph and then you go on to talk about WoW. We're not playing mortal kombat, tekken or street fighter so idk what you're trying to prove by bringing up the skill needed to be good in those kind of games when MMORPG's play much differently. I think it'd be great if you could name some MMORPG's that you think have a good combat system and why, and others that are bad. Idk maybe i just didn't understand your post but i can at least tell you dont like action combat.

AoC is experimenting with both tab target and action combat and trying to find the right balance, it was shown in the basic ranged attack showcase video that intrepid put out recently that right now they have the ability to switch between tab target and action combat on the fly and action combat gives you a reticle that allows you to soft lock onto targets. While I doubt a feature like that would be implemented on release it shows that they're trying to find the right balance between tab target and action combat as they do want a hybrid combat system. Also if I remember correctly the video showcasing ranger attacks, one of the guys mentioned that some abilities would be able to be aimed after charging and then shot in whatever direction you please but I tried skimming through a bit but couldn't find it.

Personally I liked how BDO plays, as it also has a reticle with a soft lock feature, and as I played ranger there I get the feeling that AoC ranger gameplay probably would feel a bit similar. My biggest reason for enjoying action combat, especially in BDO is the ability to make on the fly decisions and cancel abilities to go right into a different ability if need be or just to increase dps. A popular BDO content creator who no longer makes BDO content unfortunately was BladeBoques who described BDO combat as operating at the speed of thought, the way I interpret that is only you could slow yourself down. This makes maining a class much more enjoyable as the skill ceiling isn't based on skill rotations, timing or having the better gear, but by investing hours and hours into your class and constantly fighting others and doing raids to really limit test yourself. I think limit testing in an action combat game is much more rewarding than in tab target.'

Also I should probably mention that while i enjoy action combat more-so than tab target, I don't think aiming takes skill at all in games like BDO at least, and maybe even AoC as they both implement a sort of soft lock feature. We're not trying to get headshots in CSGO, we're shooting arrows in a fantasy game. pinpoint accuracy has no place in MMORPGs IMO.

Sapiverenus

He brings up 2D fighters because rotations are kind of like combos and there are abilities/items/actions that reward reaction to counter enemy abilities/ actions. Timed or temporary blocks may be in the game as well. And positioning is important.

I hope interesting lock and aim abilities, sometimes both on one ability such as a version of Quick Shot that Locks on and homes-in if the First or first Two Action-AIm hit their target; or abilities starting lock/tab then winding up Aim or charging up into an Aimed Shot; or abilities where an Aim ability, maybe a version of Snipe/ Charged Shot, ghosts through enemies bodyblocking when tabbed/locked-on to someone. . .

I can see homing projectiles with a limited arc being used to get around people, objects, whatever as well. Some more homing/hard-arcing than other. . .

Perhaps a lot of that is in the realm of Augments.

maouw

This example video is a really good choice!
It's really clear what you want - projectiles with set trajectories once they leave your hand, allowing opponents to adjust their positioning in response.
The skill expressed here being: spatial awareness - more specifically, understanding where/how your opponent moves.

I'd love the game to have this kind of playstyle, but with more high fantasy skills and less reliance on basic attacks - but that's going beyond the scope of conversation at this point.

Action Combat mode could have been like this, but with auto-acquired targets closest to the reticle when using Tab skills.
On the flip side, in Tab Target mode, I imagined Action Combat skills to just fire in the direction of the selected target.

This would let you have homing skills, and evadeable skills for both combat modes, no matter what ratio of 75:25 skill build you choose.

Noaani

Dummo wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dummo wrote: »

That gameplay video did not do it for me, but I agree with everything you said.

Sathrago wrote: »

Give me tab target, 30 hotbar skills, and meaningful gear progression.

I personally hate having that much skills on my hotbar and I want skill to matter outside of just having better gear.

While not the only way to introduce skill to a game, the more abilities you have, the more skill it takes to be good at a game.

To me, a game with 6 abilities but where you need to aim and evade uses less actual player skill than a game with 30 abilities but where you dont need to aim and evading is a function of gear.

I'm sure you think differently, and that's fine. You prefer to think that aiming a reticle at another player is "skill".

Agree to disagree, but I actually like the direction Ashes is going with their hybrid combat. Just some things I personally hope to be implemented, such as being able to block/dodge shots even when they're locked on to you with tab target.

Obviously we all have different gaming experiences, but I will say that literally all 5 of the hardest content in any game type I have ever played have all been in tab target games.

Action is superior for PvP, however.

Defense in general has long been something I have considered to be one of the hardest aspects for Intrepid to get right in a hybrid system. You are putting a player ability up against a skill/RNG roll.

About the best I can think of is that the higher the discrepancy between one player or mobs accuracy stat and their targets dodge/roll stat, the further away you need to dodge for it to miss, and/or the earlier you need to get your block up in order to successfully block it. This gives both players a reason to increase their stats (key in an MMO), but means the player with more dodge/block skill is in a position to not increase that stat as high, rely on their skill as a player a little.more, and focus their gear selection in other areas.

Heliux

I really like the action combat mode, but I know AoC always said that game will has a hybrid combat more focus in tab-target, so...for me right now is ok.
To see how its work, we must wait for future testing (massive PvP and more). That's gonna show us what we need know and decide if it's ouer game or not.

Mag7spy

Spodos wrote: »

You action combat fans don't seem to get it - you are in the minority in the Ashes community (and also in the MMORPG) community. For some reason, you think that aiming counts as "skill" but nothing else does.

But you can have incredibly in-depth, challenging, and high skill-ceiling based combat without requiring aiming. Block skills with a limited duration that are required to be pressed at the right time, combos based on status effects, footsies based on skill ranges, status immunities and immunity breakers, etc.

For a great example of a game type that has in-depth combat but doesn't require aiming, look at literally any 2D fighting game - if you can't admit that those take skill, there's really nothing more we can talk about. You can also look at WoW's Arena Championship - yes, eSports based on tab-target combat. Would love to see you guys try to play there and quickly understand how skill-based tab-target can be.

So I've pretty much definitively proven that you don't need aiming to have skill-based combat. This leaves your last argument that you prefer the challenge of aiming to the types of skills I'm talking about. But guess what - in case you didn't notice, most of the new MMORPGs that have come out with action combat aren't doing well at all. And the focus for MMOs that are in development and have a chance of succeeding is far more towards tab-target, old-school MMOs that bring back the glory days of strategy, holy trinity, community interdependence, while leveraging some of the more modern conveniences.

The reality is that most MMORPG players don't like the challenge of aiming - the community comes from a legacy of the D&D crowd, which is all about strategy and has no twitch skills whatsoever. The desire for aiming comes from a minority of folks who play primarily FPS, but those aren't the dedicated MMO gamers. If you want to build something that will last and will have a strong community, action combat isn't it. If you want to please the Fortnite crowd until the next great fad comes along, then by all means action away...

This is how i know you are naïve not understanding how many people want action in their mmorpg. Regardless of the depth of new world, and the bad progression mechanics in lost ark and lack of content.

Those games were running with 1 mill concurrent players. When a better game pops up that number is going to be far higher because there is a want for it, and not old feeling games that will refuse to evolve.

I guess you are a Pantheon sub though

Dygz

Heartbeat wrote: »

idk why you're trashing on aiming and action combat so hard, your whole post sounds unnecessarily passive aggressive, if done well action combat and aiming isnt bad. Your comments seem all over the place though, why bring up 2d games when the whole topic is about MMOs, it sounds like you're trying to describe fighting games in the second paragraph and then you go on to talk about WoW. We're not playing mortal kombat, tekken or street fighter so idk what you're trying to prove by bringing up the skill needed to be good in those kind of games when MMORPG's play much differently. I think it'd be great if you could name some MMORPG's that you think have a good combat system and why, and others that are bad. Idk maybe i just didn't understand your post but i can at least tell you dont like action combat.

I think because Steven seems to focus on Action Combat as aiming.
I consider Action Combat in an RPG to include active Block, Dodge, Roll.
I haven't seen much of that in the Ashes combat demos.

Sathrago

Dygz wrote: »

Heartbeat wrote: »

idk why you're trashing on aiming and action combat so hard, your whole post sounds unnecessarily passive aggressive, if done well action combat and aiming isnt bad. Your comments seem all over the place though, why bring up 2d games when the whole topic is about MMOs, it sounds like you're trying to describe fighting games in the second paragraph and then you go on to talk about WoW. We're not playing mortal kombat, tekken or street fighter so idk what you're trying to prove by bringing up the skill needed to be good in those kind of games when MMORPG's play much differently. I think it'd be great if you could name some MMORPG's that you think have a good combat system and why, and others that are bad. Idk maybe i just didn't understand your post but i can at least tell you dont like action combat.

I think because Steven seems to focus on Action Combat as aiming.
I consider Action Combat in an RPG to include active Block, Dodge, Roll.
I haven't seen much of that in the Ashes combat demos.

In the melee video there were short blinks and blocks. In the ranged video we e had rolls.

I think that's enough evidence for it.

DanzigMaelstor

As someone who grew up playing everything from UO to EQ to WoW, I will always prefer tab targeting. To me it’s as nostalgic to mmorpg’s as paper and pen (absent screens) campaigns are to D&D. I understand why people might like action based combat…I have played, GW2 and ESO, but the lack of action bar slots I disliked immensely, and focus on free aim doesn’t add any meaningful complexity.

The PvP skill ceiling comparison between WoW and GW2 or ESO, for example, is not even on the same planet. WoW PvP is infinitely more complex - having to understand GCD’s, CD sync, DR timers and how those effect team play coordination - among many other aspects - truly makes victory in high level play feel like an accomplishment, RBG’s and high 3’s arena play (2500++ mmr) provide a level of adrenaline, and require reflex, coordination and general quick thinking that I have never even come close to replicating in GW2 or ESO PVP.

In addition to that, you have to be intimately familiar with those same aspects of not just your own class, but every single class in the game to be truly successful in high rated PvP. Maybe that sounds nightmarish to some, but I loved it.

I have never played FF, BDO, or NW so I do not know anything about those games, was just never interested. Maybe I am missing something there.

In any case, that is just my opinion. Not looking to argue about it, everyone has their preferences. I am just glad AoC will provide the choice for both playstyles.

NoMadder

It's New World. Looks almost identical. I like it. I like New World. I also like tab targetting.

Asgerr

Heartbeat wrote: »

I think because Steven seems to focus on Action Combat as aiming.
I consider Action Combat in an RPG to include active Block, Dodge, Roll.
I haven't seen much of that in the Ashes combat demos.

We have literally seen Block, dodge and roll in both previews of combat. Go and rewatch the melee one for block and dodge (which btw, can just mean, walk away from the melee hit) and the Ranger one has plenty of rolling (maybe just the magic spells were homing, but doesn't mean all mob attacks will be).

Dygz

Sathrago wrote: »

In the melee video there were short blinks and blocks. In the ranged video we e had rolls.
I think that's enough evidence for it.

Those Blinks are most likely an Active Skill or augment, so... I don't count those as active Dodge, Roll.
Ranged Combat demo, Steven does Roll twice in 27 minutes. Blink and you will miss it.
So, again, we don't see much of it in the demos. Which doesn't mean they are non-existent.
Just that Steven primarily focuses on Action Combat as aiming with a reticle.
(It actually crossed my mind, Sunday, that maybe Steven is not the best person to demo combat.) ??

Xenotor

Pure action combat is sadly impossible with 250 vs 250 or even 500 vs 500.
Not be-course the tech is missing but be-course the internet connection is not good enough across the world.

You have to keep in mind that everything everyone does is information that needs to first go to the server and then go to the players.
Every single arrow, spell shot. Not just that while its in the air, you have to know its position compared to every player in the battle.
Otherwise player A may see Player B get hit while player B saw himself dodging with ease and still taking damage.

So while i am a big fan of pure action combat,I don't think i can happen yet
At least not with mass battles in mind.

I am not sure how Ashes plans for Active Blocking to work in the massive 250 vs 250 PVP battles they promised.
At least without people constantly seeing themself dodge or block only to still take damage.
Or seeing an attack hit only for no damage to appear.

Liniker

Sorry man... I really don't like it, when I think MMORPG I think Tank... Healer... DPS.... skill rotation and massive raids and PvP, that combat you shared is fun, but not in MMORPGs, I love playing mordhau or chiv 2 tho - and mortal online 2 does a good job incorporating that combat, but still, I can't consider it an actual mmorpg... feels like a survival/slasher MMO

Myosotys

rpgmaniac wrote: »

"If you stick with tab-target combat you will automatically exclude a major portion of PVP players that have quit playing tab-target mmorpg for a long time now & don't expect them to make an exception for your game because for all of them it's all about how the combat feels & if the combat doesn't feel right they won't touch a game ever, so if you really want your game to be successful & attract the vast majority of the PVP crowd out there you need to scrap entirely the outdated tab-target combat system from your game & start working on a modern full action combat system where we must manually aim all our attacks & all attacks can be evaded"

To be able to understand what is better for gameplay between Tab-targeting and action combat, it is necessary to know precisely the mechanics of the game.

For example, will there be passive dodging skills?

If yes, then why not a Tab-targeting?

Will the combos be complicated? If yes, how can you do complex combos when you have to aim at your target ?

Tab-targeting is a bit old school but old school MMOs are good too...

Would the game engine make an action-only combat mode viable?

I'm just asking because I just arrived on this forum and discovered this promising game.

I don't necessarily agree with the fact that Tab-targetting will push away PvP players. It will only push away those who don't like tab-targeting.

But basically, I agree that tab-targeting in a 3D universe can seem quite outdated.

Sathrago

Dygz wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

In the melee video there were short blinks and blocks. In the ranged video we e had rolls.
I think that's enough evidence for it.

Those Blinks are most likely an Active Skill or augment, so... I don't count those as active Dodge, Roll.
Ranged Combat demo, Steven does Roll twice in 27 minutes. Blink and you will miss it.
So, again, we don't see much of it in the demos. Which doesn't mean they are non-existent.
Just that Steven primarily focuses on Action Combat as aiming with a reticle.
(It actually crossed my mind, Sunday, that maybe Steven is not the best person to demo combat.) ??

He's not. He does these recordings completely blind it seems and has not practiced with the game at all. I assume because hes just busy, but it would be nice if he wasn't a chicken with its head cut off every single time a combat update comes out.

Depraved

Xenotor wrote: »

Pure action combat is sadly impossible with 250 vs 250 or even 500 vs 500.
Not be-course the tech is missing but be-course the internet connection is not good enough across the world.

You have to keep in mind that everything everyone does is information that needs to first go to the server and then go to the players.
Every single arrow, spell shot. Not just that while its in the air, you have to know its position compared to every player in the battle.
Otherwise player A may see Player B get hit while player B saw himself dodging with ease and still taking damage.

So while i am a big fan of pure action combat,I don't think i can happen yet
At least not with mass battles in mind.

I am not sure how Ashes plans for Active Blocking to work in the massive 250 vs 250 PVP battles they promised.
At least without people constantly seeing themself dodge or block only to still take damage.
Or seeing an attack hit only for no damage to appear.

this is inaccurate. you would be surprised how little internet you need to play any game, even an mmorpg, even in a large scale fight.

regarding arrows, spells, etc, you would still track them, but you dont track every unit and the collision is more important anyways, in both action or targetted combat

Lullabae

Dude mistakes mmo with fps

Here we go again..

Modern Warfare is coming out very soon, you gonna love it.

Magic Man

For the action combat bit of the ''hybrid combat'' ye for sure. The kind of combat shown in the video you posted could definitely be utilized...and uh it's a little funny people going ''tHis Is An MmO nOt FpS'' as if having aimed abilities has anything to do with FPS games...guess shows how out of touch some people are with the gaming genres overall

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