Vaknar wrote: » Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game. If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
Cjotas wrote: » Good afternoon, I open this discussion to be able to talk about the ammunition in the ranger class and why it is important that it be implemented, giving importance at the same time to the class of gathering wood and other minerals to be able to create ammunition of variable qualities with special effects for ranger class attacks, giving effects or boost to elemental skills, etc. That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation. In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.
Asgerr wrote: » @Rhorden So you're basically confirming that we're limiting the burden of spending money and inventory space for the benefit of using the basic attack on a single archetype. Got it. Hey, anyone wanna play the single archetype that has to pay in-game currency to actually hit anything? Also to answer the question: have I played a hunter before? Yes. Yes I have. Even in WoW. And guess what? WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game.
Rhorden wrote: » 2) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back." I do need to say I found the 2nd statement amusing. "Prevents" and "might", really? It's commendable you can face each day knowing all the "mights" that could happen.
insomnia wrote: » so, should casters also need components for spells? or summoners
Mag7spy wrote: » All these ideas for limited ammo are trash, all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot. There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do. This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot.... Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic. This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea.
Rhorden wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » All these ideas for limited ammo are trash, all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot. There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do. This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot.... Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic. This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea. Finally! Someone said something I can agree with. I have to do some code breaking to fully understand some of that gibberish but I'll give it a shot. You said,"This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea." LOL!! We'll come back to that. So starting at the top you said,"all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot." 1) like I said, we agree. Put quivers in the game. What do quivers hold? I wonder..... 2) When you say "all these special effects" what are you referring to? Different effects arrows would have? Then why would the effect come from gear and not the arrows? 3) Why would a quiver be in an off hand slot for a weapon that requires 2 hands? You followed it up with by going deep on this one,"There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do." 1) Where to start? Well, I don't know what you mean by "won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game." That sounds dangerously like an opinion and you know what opinions are like, right? 2) What facts are you basing this on? What inside information to the design of this game do you have? How do you know what reasons they are making their decisions from? I mean that's a pretty ignorant claim unless you can back it up. 3) You are talking about the content designed around the player. So how does a bow deal damage? They shoot physical projectiles to do melee damage at range. This isn't magic. If you have another way to explain physical damage at range I'm all ears. Lets explore the magic side for a second. Would you champion the idea that rangers should operate off mana? If so that gets rid of the physical damage component and would explain a lot. However you're left explaining the different between a mage and ranger since both would use the same resource and do damage based off said resource. So what's the difference? A mage uses a staff and ranger uses a.....bent staff? 4) You are correct that this is a mmorpg. What I can't figure out is how you are linking a bow not needing arrows to the game being a mmorpg. Are you implying that mmorpgs aren't allowed to have weapons that require ammo? Or perhaps mmorpgs that have weapons that require ammo don't work? Also, are you saying mages and healers in a single player game can't work similarly to a mages and healers in a mmorpg? What about melee like warriors or rogues? If they can why can't a bowman? This turd nugget was the hardest to understand. Somewhat because I couldn't catch the meaning but mainly because I was having a hard time fathoming your math."This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot...." 1) You are correct this game isn't bound by realistic effects. A lot of games aren't. Good games and good game design are bound by logic, rules and common sense. Especially rpgs where immersion is a main feature. If those tenets of game design aren't followed then something else, such as lore, needs to be able to explain why it doesn't work and it if can't then you have a glaring problem. 2) 10 arrows, 10 seconds, multiple that over a arrow....? Even my inner caveman is going "WTF?" 3) Arrow a second is 60 arrows a minute multiplied by 60 minutes. 60X60= 3600 arrows an hour with no down time. I have absolutely no idea where you got 100,000 arrows shot. Also I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to convey here. Is this why you are against ammo in the game? It confuses you? Math scares you? Then there's this.....thing."Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic." 1) Tell us more about the design of the game and how you know. Better yet, tell us anything about the design of the game. Also how do you know my idea isn't based off the design of the game? Because you don't like it that means it falls outside the parameters of the games design? LOL. Please, keep dropping these pearls of wisdom. 2) Paraphrasing here - "because you want something for no reason other than to make it realistic" Do you want to see your guy swing an axe when cutting down a tree? A difference between running and walking? What about doing the animation of drawing back a bowstring to fire an arrow? If you want ANY of that then, OH NO, it looks like you want realism also. *gasp* 3) I want a better design but not for "no reason." Pretty sure everyone, except you, gets the reason. To have a great game. I want things that make a game good, make sense, feel solid and well thought out. Logic and common sense based. Not some half-assed ideas that don't make sense when put to any level of scrutiny. Back to,"This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea." 1) Here we agree again. A lot of people that give ideas "don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea." You mean like YOU? I gave plenty of reasons why arrows should be in the game. I gave different ideas about how to carry and get arrows. I have explained why rangers need to use arrows and why the ranger class doesn't fit into the other class styles, melee and mana. They are in a category of their own. If that means they have special requirements then so be it. Just because this class is different doesn't mean we should think up ways to burden other classes. The core design of this classes mechanics dictate the needs and requirements of how this class should function. "They just want their idea." What have you given? What have you clarified logically? What alternatives have you proposed? What explanations about anything relating to anything have you provided? Other than sitting there pouting about someone not agreeing with you and posting, (well, I really don't WTF you were trying to say) how have you contributed? Tell us, who's the one that just wants their idea? 2) I am glad you said "They just want their idea." I played WoW for a long time and quite often during TBC I read the forums but I rarely posted anything. I saw a lot of really bad ideas get floated based on nothing other than people didn't like it, didn't want to bother with it, feels bad or other lazy people justifications. I just laughed because I thought "no way in hell will they do that". Then WotLK dropped and it was immediately apparent they had. They dumbed down things in the game. Being a pally tank and understanding how important it was to be uncrittable I was put off that they made the game easier and uncrittable wasn't a thing anymore. Through out WotLK I saw and heard a ton more ignorant ideas from brainless people wanting an easier game. People complaining about things that weren't broken but wanted them "fixed". This trend continued through every xpac. Each xpac the game got dumbed down more, easier, less impactful and boring until I stopped playing in BFA. By that point it was a shit show. Tanks over the years became worse and worse. Pulling became a lost artform. People didn't know how to CC correctly. Talent trees had been reduced to a slap in the players face. A myriad of other problems and consequences arose and it all came from "They just want their idea." The devs listened and gave into their player base. Many people who looked logically at the game design spoke out against it but they were outnumbered by the entitled ones who didn't care about anything other than themselves with no justification as to why things should be that way. 3) This is a new game from a company that wants player feedback. I plan on speaking my mind, loudly and often. I plan on scrutinizing things that don't make sense and calling out bad ideas. Not because I want to be a jerk but because I have faith Intrepid has a chance to make a game that has the potential to dwarf WotLK player numbers. Not saying they will, they just have a chance. I do believe they will make a fantastic game as long as they don't take the path blizzard did. But mostly I want a really good game to play and that wont happen by watering it down. 4) I would like to have arrows in the game. At the same time I'm not opposed to being ammo free but that argument needs to make sense and not be because someone just doesn't like it, or it's costly, or rangers are the only ones that have to carry extra crap, or it takes up bag space, etc. I gave explanations to easily fix all of that but still all I hear from you guys "I don't like it". That's fine not to like it. Expend more effort and come up with a better idea. Come up with something that justifies (in the game world) why rangers don't use arrows. To the forum admin that reads this, sorry it was so damn long.
I think that players need to craft arrows to prepare for contents is too detailed, I feel the quiver idea that Steven mentioned in video is very good, it can be like quiver automatic craft arrows for player just by automatically consume the materials in player's bag and the quiver can give enchant effect to arrows to do more different things base on the quiver type and level so just think it’s a magic quiver, for example a quiver made from some monster have poison characteristic which will allow the quiver to craft poison arrows for player to use, and player should able to equip multiple quivers in the same time and switches from one to another base on situations and with cooldown or something, to me a ranger from 2 to 4 quivers is normal and over 4 to 6 quivers I will say great and over 6 quivers maybe a class like ranger + ranger should able to, it’s will be like how coating works for bow in Monster Hunter, and telling players that quiver is magical quiver will automatically craft arrows has another benefits which is that if you allow player to decide how many quivers he/she want to equip on the character it doesn't have to put heavy amount of arrows in quiver to represent how many arrows are there in the quivers and feel more clean and natural if a character equip multiple quivers in stead of making it looks silly but as I know equip multiple quivers is doable and it's a real thing in history at least in my region.
Rhorden wrote: » Well you still keep talking and saying nothing. You keep saying design like a drowning man clinging to a slowly deflating floatation device. This word design, I don't think it means what you think it means. True they already stated they weren't going to use ammo but they have stated many times before they want feedback and things can change. I gave plenty of examples as to why and how it should be included. You, you contribute nothing. Vaknar wrote: » Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game. If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration! The point of the convo is to bring up potential ideas that could be possible solutions here or elsewhere or great ideas that people want implemented. That's the whole point of conversation. A concept you clearly don't know how to participate in. Seriously, man you got nothing. At this point I don't think you have the capacity to even understand what is suppose to be taking place here. Repeatedly I say things and you somehow twist what was said around to suit your view. You show signs of not being able to grasp simple concepts. You intentionally slant the information to try to make your argument look better. I am seriously wondering if English your first language. 1) No I don't play PoE. It didn't look interesting. I do find it interesting how you like to say this isn't WoW so bringing it up is fluff and doesn't matter but then you point to PoE. Really? Also find it amusing you keep referring to me wanting realism yet you ignore the question I posed to you. What's wrong? Can't answer it? 2) Yes I saw the live stream. Feel free to point out exactly what points aren't based off reasoning. 3) You are right, they don't have to explain anything to anyone about anything. What does that have to do with anything? The forum are for throwing out ideas and if they like what they see here they may consider it. Note Vaknars post. 4) Overexaggerated is an understatement. You straight up lied and got caught. Now you're trying to play it off. Weak. 5) You said "By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff." I'm calling you out. Go ahead and show what you would consider to be a valid idea here. My money is on 1- you wont followed by some irrational convoluted excuse or 2- as per your typical pattern you will ignore it completely. 6) Didn't say rangers didn't fit in. Said they don't fit with caster or melee. They're in a category of their own. You're twisting words. 7) Go ahead and explain why mana arrows are naive since you volunteered. You wont answer. 8) Give examples how I'm trying to "overcomplicate, break balance". Delusional statement. Wont answer. 9) Never said you should buy or make arrows constantly. You're twisting words. 10) Never said arrows should be overpowered. You're twisting words. 11) Never said to make content easier. You're twisting words. You dodge questions, twist words, give delusional examples and straight up lie. The difference between me and you is I want a good game, willing to entertain ideas, put forth different options to find a better way and know others may have better ideas. I'm open to that. You just look at this as if it was an argument and only care about winning. When you enter a forum like this where it's a collaboration with your mentality then you've already lost. What's worse is the only person you lost to is yourself because no one else cares.
Asgerr wrote: » So Rhorden's hard-on for (arrow) shafts aside, I think we've concluded that carrying ammo contributes nothing to the game save for a time and money waste. Even his own points offer nothing which seemingly contributes any "fun" or interesting mechanic which enhances the game past his own desire for some underwhelming form of realism in a high fantasy MMO videogame. If he (I'm assuming it's a he) wishes to have ammo in his game, I'm sure there other ones which best fit his taste. If not, then he'll either have to accept that the game is not going to include ammo, or leave it. Either way, we're all just gonna play without ammo to fret over and have a grand old time about it.
