NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback.
Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes.
Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback. I can agree if it is a common thing to get de-targeted based on the amount of times there he be a lot more focus needed and a measure of those skill elements at a high rate than other tab mmorpgs.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback. I can agree if it is a common thing to get de-targeted based on the amount of times there he be a lot more focus needed and a measure of those skill elements at a high rate than other tab mmorpgs. So (and I really hope you can see that I'm not just trying to make you look bad by saying this), if you haven't really ever experienced detargeting in Tab games, maybe you just haven't played any of what you would consider the Good Tab games? Maybe just assume in this sort of conversation, all the people who prefer Tab have played those games, so they don't understand why you keep saying that Tab doesn't require skill?
Mag7spy wrote: » What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback. I can agree if it is a common thing to get de-targeted based on the amount of times there he be a lot more focus needed and a measure of those skill elements at a high rate than other tab mmorpgs. So (and I really hope you can see that I'm not just trying to make you look bad by saying this), if you haven't really ever experienced detargeting in Tab games, maybe you just haven't played any of what you would consider the Good Tab games? Maybe just assume in this sort of conversation, all the people who prefer Tab have played those games, so they don't understand why you keep saying that Tab doesn't require skill? What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility. None come to my mind nor would I think there would be a issue in many to begin with. The only reason for L2 where it would be a issue is large scale fights. Where other mmorpgs don't have that you can retarget in a second as you are not dealing with massive wars or massive fights.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback. I can agree if it is a common thing to get de-targeted based on the amount of times there he be a lot more focus needed and a measure of those skill elements at a high rate than other tab mmorpgs. So (and I really hope you can see that I'm not just trying to make you look bad by saying this), if you haven't really ever experienced detargeting in Tab games, maybe you just haven't played any of what you would consider the Good Tab games? Maybe just assume in this sort of conversation, all the people who prefer Tab have played those games, so they don't understand why you keep saying that Tab doesn't require skill? What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility. None come to my mind nor would I think there would be a issue in many to begin with. The only reason for L2 where it would be a issue is large scale fights. Where other mmorpgs don't have that you can retarget in a second as you are not dealing with massive wars or massive fights. Oof you make me wanna give up... NiKr has specifically detailed how detargeting affected L2 PvP, by personal experience, before. I don't know what you even consider 'Major MMOs', Lineage ain't THAT niche. Just gimme a list of what you call 'Major MMOs' then... Are you trying to say that you only play Major MMOs?
NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility. I have a better question, what major mmo is a pvp tab target one? Did AA have detargeting? Cause I feel like that's the only other tab pvp mmo out there.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I believed you on the skills just not something i have experienced before except for invis classes. Which is why I'm saying that even tab target games can require you to have the same sort of skills you listed. And I really hope Ashes has that kind of design, though, from what I saw in the ranger video, it doesn't look like it will. I'm definitely gonna be asking for as much targeting gameplay as possible in my feedback. I can agree if it is a common thing to get de-targeted based on the amount of times there he be a lot more focus needed and a measure of those skill elements at a high rate than other tab mmorpgs. So (and I really hope you can see that I'm not just trying to make you look bad by saying this), if you haven't really ever experienced detargeting in Tab games, maybe you just haven't played any of what you would consider the Good Tab games? Maybe just assume in this sort of conversation, all the people who prefer Tab have played those games, so they don't understand why you keep saying that Tab doesn't require skill? What Major mmorpgs have de-targeting where its a common thing besides invisibility. None come to my mind nor would I think there would be a issue in many to begin with. The only reason for L2 where it would be a issue is large scale fights. Where other mmorpgs don't have that you can retarget in a second as you are not dealing with massive wars or massive fights. Oof you make me wanna give up... NiKr has specifically detailed how detargeting affected L2 PvP, by personal experience, before. I don't know what you even consider 'Major MMOs', Lineage ain't THAT niche. Just gimme a list of what you call 'Major MMOs' then... Are you trying to say that you only play Major MMOs? What I consider main is major mmorpgs and western ones that had a decent audience. L2 would be among them they had enough players in that game and i remember advertising for it. If it is a mmo no one has ever heard of and has a tiny audience I can't say that is a major representation of tab target mmorpgs that people play and gain experience from. I have played some asians one and flyff and don't consider those to be major ones (not that i played those ones long) Point of this is the majority of peoples experience is with other games then you can't really say de-target is the norm for expectations in relation to skill with tar target games. So either i missed some, or didn't think much of it if there was a point where I was de-targeted do to the ease it was to target someone anyway in pvp. Much larger scale pvp was more so shadowbane for me which can be a bit more difficult then being really easily to select your target and move with the war sizes and the chunkiness of the game.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective.
Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic.
Mag7spy wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will start witht he most basic example I can do and we can go from there. What is more fun 1. A game where you can press a key and it causes your character to automatically walk up to your target and attack to use your skill. (requiring nothing of you but to press the button) 2. You walk you walk up to the target and press your ability and attempt to hit the target which it can attempt to move away from your attack If someone preferred option one there isn't much else for me to say so id just leave it at that. If option 2 I'd say because the person feels it is more immersed and requires effort over the game playing for you. So the next question would be why is that more enjoy able, and how to incorporate that into a mmorpg. With a history of that being the came with the genre over the years. That's a really shallow comparison my dude. It is breaking down gameplay at a basic level to start to explain things. It is meant to be shallow. When that element is talked about then more can continue. Simply typing a giant page isn't going to be digested well.
SirChancelot wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » I will start witht he most basic example I can do and we can go from there. What is more fun 1. A game where you can press a key and it causes your character to automatically walk up to your target and attack to use your skill. (requiring nothing of you but to press the button) 2. You walk you walk up to the target and press your ability and attempt to hit the target which it can attempt to move away from your attack If someone preferred option one there isn't much else for me to say so id just leave it at that. If option 2 I'd say because the person feels it is more immersed and requires effort over the game playing for you. So the next question would be why is that more enjoy able, and how to incorporate that into a mmorpg. With a history of that being the came with the genre over the years. That's a really shallow comparison my dude.
Mag7spy wrote: » I will start witht he most basic example I can do and we can go from there. What is more fun 1. A game where you can press a key and it causes your character to automatically walk up to your target and attack to use your skill. (requiring nothing of you but to press the button) 2. You walk you walk up to the target and press your ability and attempt to hit the target which it can attempt to move away from your attack If someone preferred option one there isn't much else for me to say so id just leave it at that. If option 2 I'd say because the person feels it is more immersed and requires effort over the game playing for you. So the next question would be why is that more enjoy able, and how to incorporate that into a mmorpg. With a history of that being the came with the genre over the years.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic. As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill. To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge. Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill. Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply. Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic. As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill. To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge. Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill. Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply. Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games. no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill" So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic. As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill. To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge. Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill. Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply. Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games. no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill" So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels. Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at. You know this. Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime).
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic. As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill. To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge. Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill. Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply. Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games. no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill" So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels. Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at. You know this. Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime). Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own. Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons.
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Issue with this is knowledge applies to both tab and action it is not tab exclusive. I don't view the knowledge part as skill. Skill is reaction, tracking, aiming which is all much higher in action and much less so in tab. This definition of "skill" would see Engineers and software developers be considered unskilled professions, yet those working on a factory assembly line would be considered skilled workers (depending on the line, reaction is the only thing such a worker needs to do). While you may say "I am talking about skill in an MMO, not in a job", I would counter with "skill is skill, if you dont consider knowledge a skill, that applies to all aituations". Basically, your definition of "skill" is demonstrably incorrect, from an objective perspective. This has 0 relation to what I'm talking about, as usual you are trying to be manipulative to try to misrepresent words that are not in relation to the content at hand we are talking about. You aren't someone I'd ever trust you show 0 respect and are just annoying. Tab you have skills, action you have skill and you need to have reaction, tracking, aiming. By default an action player has more to deal with than you as a tab player. It has plenty of "relation" to what you are talking about. You seem to be conflating "skill" with "physical skill". The examples I gave (engineer and factory worker) were two examples where your seeming conflation falls through. We could also just talk about chess. Based on your definition of "skill", becoming a chess grandmaster is not something that requires skill. What I am attempting to explain to you is that there are skills of the body, and there are skills of the mind. Action combat absolutely takes more "skills of the body" than tab target. There is more precision aiming needed, without a doubt. This isnt to say there isnt some aiming needed in tab target - the above conversation is an example of it, but so too is the need to aim an AoE (often requiring leading a target and predicting an appropriate location). All said though, action combat absolutely uses more of this type of skill than tab target games. However, it is the other type of skill that tab target uses more of than action. Mind based skills (often referred to as "thinking"). While some games dont have a lot of this involved (WoW), this is an outlier rather than a rule. Most tab target games see you needing to use these "mind skills" more often than any other game genre requires it, arguably more than chess does, in some situations - though I cant speak about chess at grandmaster level. Heading on down to any amateur chess club though, you will use less "mind skill" to beat everyone there than you would use in an equal amount of time spent in top end tab target gameplay. To be perfectly fair, in all of the above, I am working on the assumption you understand tab target games (other than WoW) enough to know how much thought goes in to top end combat, and how you cant just repeat the same rotation over and over again in most games. It may well be that you do consider "mind skills" to be a thing, and just dont realize how much of a part they play in top end tab target games. I may indeed have it all around the wrong way here, I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm making the assumption that you are indeed aware of the thought needed in the above. Then agree action takes more skill by your own logic. As I literally just said, and have always said, it takes more physical skill (aiming and such), but takes less thought, or mental skill. To then say action combat requires more skill is to minimize the importance of mental skill - thought and knowledge. Again, due to the amount of this needed in top.end tab target games, it means over all skill level in most tab target games is on par or higher than most action games - it is just a different type of skill. Again though, my issue here is in you seeming to suggest that knowledge and thinking are not skills at all, which is what you suggested and caused my first reply. Like, I get that you dont value knowledge at all, it's very clear you go out of your way to not know things, or to ever learn things. That doesnt mean knowing and learning isn't a skill though - it's just one you dont have, which seems to be why you downplay its importance in tab target games. no by your own statement as id said multiple times as well action is more skill because its an additional layer on top of every what what you do with tab. So all those skill effects, rotations, etc all apply to action by default ontop of NEEDING the "physical skill" So no tab does not require more skill, it requires less than action because it has a big skill element missing compared to what action has. Meaning action has infinitely more potential of difficulty and complexity based on how hard they want the game to be on multiple levels. Technically they are the exact same amount of skill because developers design for the information conveyance cap which is whatever FPS the game runs at. You know this. Just assume that Tab games get to the cap differently, like fast Fighting Games do (I'm assuming you played at least one of these sometime). Don't agree with this there at all or about caps especially when it comes to tab target games. Even more so if you have 40+ skills, I highly doubt they had caps thought in mind. Also the reason why Noaani and others want trackers because the difficulty is too much for them to figure out on their own. Edit* as well as people relying on other add ons. I don't understand what this has to do with anything, I was referencing fast and complex Fighting Games, right? My character in Under-Night has like 60 moves/options from neutral... I'm not sure if you're trying to say that 40 isn't enough so the cap isn't high enough for Tab?
