Requirements for a good gameplay layer for Crafting

Instead of saying "I want minigames for crafting" or "I do not want to have any minigames in my crafting profession", let's think about an discuss, what it would need to make it good and acceptable for the majority of crafters. Then we may end on a set of requirements that'll make for an exciting crafting system, or we may end on a set of requirements that'll make it impossible to make such a crafting level good. But lets postpone this conclusion for the sake of an open minded discussion.

So, here are a couple of things I would expect from a crafting Layer:

1. No RNG!
Any skill needed for the crafting should be focussed around your knowledge of how to do something and your decisions to do something in a particular way. A crafters customers expect a certain product and RNG should not get in our way of crafting that product.

If there are any RNG elements in the system, they must be either opt-in, which means there must be another way of achieving the same thing without any RNG risk, or connected to aspects like "over-enchanting".

2. Accessibility
There should not be any requirement to match a certain rhythm or any other dexterity checks as they are not meaningful in terms of a crafting process. A mistake in thecrafting process must always be reversible (e.g. by adding a bit of a certain resource).

3. Theorycrafting
It's okay when there are different ways of achieving the same goal (e.g. using 3 units of a cheaper resource vs 1 unit of the more expensive resource or a combination of 2 cheaper resources). This can keep the "minigame" interesting or make it interesting again when new resources are introduced because then there may be new ways of creating existing items.

4. Explorability
I should always be able to explore all aspects of the crafting system without extra cost apart from the time we invest. Giving us a "Cancel" button that returns all used resources back to us would be enough for that.

5. Recipe books
Finding the best way of creating a certain item can be interesting, reproducing it over and over is tedious. So, whenever I craft an item in a certain way, I should be able to save that way to a recipe book. The space in my book can be limited if it means that I have to buy more pages or so from a scribe.

A good example for a crafting system that I think would work well in an MMO is PotionCraft. We discussed that here

Is there another requirement I missed?

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Comments

SongRune

This is a good way of making recipes manual, but doesn't really make crafting manual.

One requirement I would say that you 'missed' is the requirement for RNG, which players then have ways to adapt to in the process. This allows RNG to keep things interesting without forcing a player to just automatically fail due to chance. With this, crafting can include personal style and risk/reward choice. (One RNG fail isnt a problem, but two is worse. Should I bother to mitigate the one I just got, or bet that I'll finish before a second? Do I prefer to use extra or special materials to reduce the odds from the start?)

Without RNG, the principles you've described lead to the wiki having "recipes" for how to optimally produce certain items with various materials. It makes crafting a 'knowledge check', rather than a consistently engaging experience. After someone has enjoyed the exploration, it becomes optional for the rest of the server, and the only "skill" remaining in most crafting is memorization. RNG, done properly, allows you to require skill in adaptation instead. With proper options for that adaptation the wiki becomes "here's a way to do this (usually the simplest way: safer, but a bit more expensive)", but that way won't suit everyone's personal style, and players will still have to be engaged with the process or risk higher rates of failure.

Caww

6. Deconstruction

RNG is so wasteful of materials that will be hard-earned given the PvP nature of collecting. A system of deconstruction could help reduce waste.

achereto

Caww wrote: »

6. Deconstruction

RNG is so wasteful of materials that will be hard-earned given the PvP nature of collecting. A system of deconstruction could help reduce waste.

The problem with deconstruction would be that gatherers and processors want to earn money as well. But without RNG (see the first requirement), waste of resources wouldn'T be a problem in the first place, would it?

SongRune wrote: »

(One RNG fail isnt a problem, but two is worse. Should I bother to mitigate the one I just got, or bet that I'll finish before a second? Do I prefer to use extra or special materials to reduce the odds from the start?)

I don't think this kind of stuff would fit into an MMO crafting system at all. The items you create will either have the precise stats other users are looking for, or you just won't be able to sell the item at all. The consequence would be that items will become more expensive because crafters need more attempts at creating an item. Over time, crafting would still become tedious.

SongRune wrote: »

Without RNG, the principles you've described lead to the wiki having "recipes" for how to optimally produce certain items with various materials. It makes crafting a 'knowledge check', rather than a consistently engaging experience. After someone has enjoyed the exploration, it becomes optional for the rest of the server, and the only "skill" remaining in most crafting is memorization.

I think that's exactly what it should become, because the crafting system will either become optional or tedious. It won't stay interesting when you craft thesame item for the 100th time. However, I don'T think the best recipes will be leaked, because (1) those who find it will want the profit for themselves and (2) any recipes would be for specific stats. That's still a lot of different recipes.

SongRune wrote: »

RNG, done properly, allows you to require skill in adaptation instead. With proper options for that adaptation the wiki becomes "here's a way to do this (usually the simplest way: safer, but a bit more expensive)", but that way won't suit everyone's personal style, and players will still have to be engaged with the process or risk higher rates of failure.

I don't see how RNG could ever make a system require skill. Also, there should not be any risk of failure unless you are doing the "over-enchanting" stuff.

LordPax

I personally think that, lets assume level 1-90 is "beginner to master" crafting levels, and 90-100 are "artisan" levels, then the majority of gear should be auto made like in most games. You click a button, boom, crafted an item. Thats how it SHOULD be for lvls 1-90. However, once you get to ARTISAN goods, I think having a mini game adds a little flair. Maybe it gets a unique skin, a unique stat bonus, or maybe you just have a chance to regain some of the materials used.

As far as the actual "mini game", it shouldnt be like 'Through the Fire and Flames' on Guitar Hero , but it shouldnt remain trivial.

That said, if individuals using this do not like the idea of it, then I get that. I'd be okay either way. A crafting minigame could be a cool idea for a group event though.

SongRune

achereto wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

(One RNG fail isnt a problem, but two is worse. Should I bother to mitigate the one I just got, or bet that I'll finish before a second? Do I prefer to use extra or special materials to reduce the odds from the start?)

I don't think this kind of stuff would fit into an MMO crafting system at all. The items you create will either have the precise stats other users are looking for, or you just won't be able to sell the item at all. The consequence would be that items will become more expensive because crafters need more attempts at creating an item. Over time, crafting would still become tedious.

I always forget people come from games where you get RNG stats from your crafting. My concept is for success or failure only. I don't mind the opportunity for rare "high quality success" with fixed stats, but I hate the idea of gradient RNG stats for exactly the reason you describe.

achereto wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

Without RNG, the principles you've described lead to the wiki having "recipes" for how to optimally produce certain items with various materials. It makes crafting a 'knowledge check', rather than a consistently engaging experience. After someone has enjoyed the exploration, it becomes optional for the rest of the server, and the only "skill" remaining in most crafting is memorization.

I think that's exactly what it should become, because the crafting system will either become optional or tedious. It won't stay interesting when you craft thesame item for the 100th time. However, I don'T think the best recipes will be leaked, because (1) those who find it will want the profit for themselves and (2) any recipes would be for specific stats. That's still a lot of different recipes.

At that point why bother having anything other than the basic "put X Y and Z ingredients in" recipe? You're only making the tedium start from the very beginning for all but the pioneers of a craft. As much as I agree that many won't share their good recipes, enough will, and it only takes one. In the era of Youtube, there's definitely one.

I didn't personally find the system I describe particularly more tedious than the normal recipe based crafting (the sort most games have) in the game I played that had both, but it was definitely more engaging. It did have lower throughput because synths took longer than the 'put the correct items in the window' version, but there are reasons to value that time requirement as a design choice, and it's a part of your system as well.

achereto wrote: »

SongRune wrote: »

RNG, done properly, allows you to require skill in adaptation instead. With proper options for that adaptation the wiki becomes "here's a way to do this (usually the simplest way: safer, but a bit more expensive)", but that way won't suit everyone's personal style, and players will still have to be engaged with the process or risk higher rates of failure.

I don't see how RNG could ever make a system require skill. Also, there should not be any risk of failure unless you are doing the "over-enchanting" stuff.

You shouldn't have any particularly significant risk of destroying valuable stuff, but there's very little reason not to have a risk of failure (with perhaps loss of fuel, basic catalysts, or lower level materials to give it a bit of meaning) other than simple player entitlement.

MrPockets

achereto wrote: »

1. No RNG!
Any skill needed for the crafting should be focussed around your knowledge of how to do something and your decisions to do something in a particular way. A crafters customers expect a certain product and RNG should not get in our way of crafting that product.

If there are any RNG elements in the system, they must be either opt-in, which means there must be another way of achieving the same thing without any RNG risk, or connected to aspects like "over-enchanting".

I've always thought that puzzle games are a good fit for crafting "gameplay layers", and most puzzle games include some sort of RNG. (ie: tetris, bejeweled, minesweeper).

achereto wrote: »

2. Accessibility
There should not be any requirement to match a certain rhythm or any other dexterity checks as they are not meaningful in terms of a crafting process. A mistake in thecrafting process must always be reversible (e.g. by adding a bit of a certain resource).

While I agree that accessibility is important, there are a number of crafting professions to explore, why can't a couple of them include dexterity checks? I think learning/improving at that dex check can be very enjoyable.

SongRune

MrPockets wrote: »

achereto wrote: »

2. Accessibility
There should not be any requirement to match a certain rhythm or any other dexterity checks as they are not meaningful in terms of a crafting process. A mistake in thecrafting process must always be reversible (e.g. by adding a bit of a certain resource).

While I agree that accessibility is important, there are a number of crafting professions to explore, why can't a couple of them include dexterity checks? I think learning/improving at that dex check can be very enjoyable

How do you choose which? I am interested in carpentry, because I am interested in carpentry irl. If I had a shaky hand or other sort of accessibility problem (possibly even from an accident in the shop), what do I do if you chose carpentry for a dex check specifically?

The problem with this mindset is people have preferences and personal identity. Some people may go into a game like this going "eh, I'll craft whatever's profitable or easy". Everyone I know goes in thinking "I am going to go into these specific crafts because I like farming/cooking/carpentry/mining/etc". If I can't go into carpentry, I'm not going to randomly switch to tanning. I'm probably going to craft less, and be upset at the game for stopping me.

Mag7spy

So I'm hearing no rng for craft, and also people saying they don't want mini games either. So based on this the weapon craft is going to have to be pretty simple and not really give great stats at base. And the rare resources are going to have to be very rare to extremely rare on drops, and bosses with very minimal chance to drop based on this.

Best gear in the game has to be crafted after all, and if I'm seeing all more risk elements wanting to be removed, it means they will need to be even more rare to find. RNG is the way that risk is normally added in the game, be it crafting the item and getting a weaker or stronger version.

MrPockets

SongRune wrote: »

MrPockets wrote: »

achereto wrote: »

2. Accessibility
There should not be any requirement to match a certain rhythm or any other dexterity checks as they are not meaningful in terms of a crafting process. A mistake in thecrafting process must always be reversible (e.g. by adding a bit of a certain resource).

While I agree that accessibility is important, there are a number of crafting professions to explore, why can't a couple of them include dexterity checks? I think learning/improving at that dex check can be very enjoyable

How do you choose which? I am interested in carpentry, because I am interested in carpentry irl. If I had a shaky hand or other sort of accessibility problem (possibly even from an accident in the shop), what do I do if you chose carpentry for a dex check specifically?

The problem with this mindset is people have preferences and personal identity. Some people may go into a game like this going "eh, I'll craft whatever's profitable or easy". Everyone I know goes in thinking "I am going to go into these specific crafts because I like farming/cooking/carpentry/mining/etc". If I can't go into carpentry, I'm not going to randomly switch to tanning. I'm probably going to craft less, and be upset at the game for stopping me.

I'll play devil's advocate on this. I can make the same argument the other way. If I'm a player that is interested in crafting, but want something to challenge my reflexes....if the game doesn't offer that, I will craft less and be upset at the game for being boring.

Regardless of the strength of this argument, it gets at the point I want to make: there should be options in the game to allow different play styles...just like there will be for the combat classes. I would prefer the devs explore, test and get feedback from these options, rather than being afraid to try in the first place.

There will always be pros/cons to any decision. we can't just automatically throw away ideas because of a single edge case.

achereto

MrPockets wrote: »

I've always thought that puzzle games are a good fit for crafting "gameplay layers", and most puzzle games include some sort of RNG. (ie: tetris, bejeweled, minesweeper).

The type of RNG you're mentioning here might actually be okay-ish. That's RNG before the fact. What I would hate is making a decision and have an RNG choosing whether my decision was successful. I guess hammering a random piece of metal into shape could work, because I can still make the decisions and control the outcome.

MrPockets wrote: »

While I agree that accessibility is important, there are a number of crafting professions to explore, why can't a couple of them include dexterity checks? I think learning/improving at that dex check can be very enjoyable.

Because that's the characters skill, not the players' skill. In an MMO (especially tab target) I as a player make the decisions what my character does. I don't control the hand of my character. My part as the player is having the knowledge and making the decisions what to do, and where to go. If my character already has the physical skill of doing something there's no need to test that skill on the player as well (Or, to say it the other way round: If there is a dex-check on the player, then there shouldn't be any limits imposed on the character).

Mag7spy

achereto wrote: »

MrPockets wrote: »

I've always thought that puzzle games are a good fit for crafting "gameplay layers", and most puzzle games include some sort of RNG. (ie: tetris, bejeweled, minesweeper).

The type of RNG you're mentioning here might actually be okay-ish. That's RNG before the fact. What I would hate is making a decision and have an RNG choosing whether my decision was successful. I guess hammering a random piece of metal into shape could work, because I can still make the decisions and control the outcome.

MrPockets wrote: »

While I agree that accessibility is important, there are a number of crafting professions to explore, why can't a couple of them include dexterity checks? I think learning/improving at that dex check can be very enjoyable.

Because that's the characters skill, not the players' skill. In an MMO (especially tab target) I as a player make the decisions what my character does. I don't control the hand of my character. My part as the player is having the knowledge and making the decisions what to do, and where to go. If my character already has the physical skill of doing something there's no need to test that skill on the player as well (Or, to say it the other way round: If there is a dex-check on the player, then there shouldn't be any limits imposed on the character).

Then you should agree there should be RnG because last i checked there is stat sheets.

CROW3

I wouldn’t want RNG removed, because I think there always needs to be a non-zero chance of failure to account for entropy. That said, I really like the idea of a failure resulting in enough material to either stop and recoup some raw mats, or pivot to another component in your list.

I do some carpentry on the side, mostly coffee & end tables, and sometimes despite all planning, measuring & intent - a saw blade just does something, or the table wiggles, or _____. Nothing is perfect, so RNG helps account for that. Skill mitigates the influence of RNG, but never to zero.

I like the mini-game concept where timing and sequence is impactful (Rockband style), and I would want the option to increase the resulting quantity for that game (maybe with some difficulty increase proportionate to the quantity).

For example, if I’m a new carpenter, making a single dowel takes full concentration. A master carpenter making a single dowel is like a 4 line dot-to-dot. Making a batch of 30 dowels isn’t an option for the new carpenter, for the master carpenter it’s the equivalent level of concentration as a new carpenter making a single dowel. Then it feels relative, you can make 10 of the same thing in one ‘game’ (with proportionate difficulty) or by doing a super easy game 10 times. That choice is in the hands of the player, and the game responds accordingly.

Ludullu

What if we a 2-step optional system. When starting a craft you'd be able to either go with a 1-click system or a mini-game one. 1-click required basic amount of resources and have you basic stats. Mini-game one would require some additional special resources and would then result in additional stats. This would be the "first step".

The second step would be optional and would always be a mini-game (ideally a differing one from the 1st step's one). This step would be "refinement" and would let you add those special stats to the basic versions of gear.

This way people could still craft a ton of basic stuff, but could also pick which mini-game they want to play to get better stats. This would also help out poorer players. You might only have enough money for a basic version of a weapon, but after a while you can come back to the crafter and ask him to refine it to get a bit of boost.

achereto

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then you should agree there should be RnG because last i checked there is stat sheets.

Just imagine another player came to you, and he's super excited because this super rare drop for that legendary item. He wants you do craft it in a certain way. Wrong stats means he can use it, crafting failure means he won't get that item at all.

This kind of stuff just doesn't work out well as it doesn't add anything positive or meaningful to the game. What you could do is having the stats impact the amount of resources you need to craft a certain item. Maybe strength has an impact on the amount of metal you need, and intelligence or dexterity has an impact on the amount of resources you need for certain stats on the item. This could add a meaningful layer to your crafting gear.

Mag7spy

achereto wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Then you should agree there should be RnG because last i checked there is stat sheets.

Just imagine another player came to you, and he's super excited because this super rare drop for that legendary item. He wants you do craft it in a certain way. Wrong stats means he can use it, crafting failure means he won't get that item at all.

This kind of stuff just doesn't work out well as it doesn't add anything positive or meaningful to the game. What you could do is having the stats impact the amount of resources you need to craft a certain item. Maybe strength has an impact on the amount of metal you need, and intelligence or dexterity has an impact on the amount of resources you need for certain stats on the item. This could add a meaningful layer to your crafting gear.

Doesn't sound like anything different in a mmorpg with loot drop as well....Im guessing you wan no rng and create exactly what you want so people can zerg past half the crafting in the game cause its easy with no rng?

achereto

Mag7spy wrote: »

Doesn't sound like anything different in a mmorpg with loot drop as well....Im guessing you wan no rng and create exactly what you want so people can zerg past half the crafting in the game cause its easy with no rng?

I've already told my reasons against RNG in a crafting gameplay layer. Those are the reasons.

Fantmx

achereto wrote: »

1. No RNG!
Any skill needed for the crafting should be focussed around your knowledge of how to do something and your decisions to do something in a particular way. A crafters customers expect a certain product and RNG should not get in our way of crafting that product.

If there are any RNG elements in the system, they must be either opt-in, which means there must be another way of achieving the same thing without any RNG risk, or connected to aspects like "over-enchanting".

2. Accessibility
There should not be any requirement to match a certain rhythm or any other dexterity checks as they are not meaningful in terms of a crafting process. A mistake in thecrafting process must always be reversible (e.g. by adding a bit of a certain resource).

3. Theorycrafting
It's okay when there are different ways of achieving the same goal (e.g. using 3 units of a cheaper resource vs 1 unit of the more expensive resource or a combination of 2 cheaper resources). This can keep the "minigame" interesting or make it interesting again when new resources are introduced because then there may be new ways of creating existing items.

4. Explorability
I should always be able to explore all aspects of the crafting system without extra cost apart from the time we invest. Giving us a "Cancel" button that returns all used resources back to us would be enough for that.

5. Recipe books
Finding the best way of creating a certain item can be interesting, reproducing it over and over is tedious. So, whenever I craft an item in a certain way, I should be able to save that way to a recipe book. The space in my book can be limited if it means that I have to buy more pages or so from a scribe.

1. I 100% agree. As the crafter improves RNG should go down, not up or stay the same. If they are improving we should see it in end product.
2. I agree with the first sentence but not the second. If you fail, you fail. I am curious though, removing timing and dexterity related processes leaves us with what exactly?
3. 100% agree. Let us explore. Let us fail. Let us succeed.
4. I don't agree with this. Testing should result in an end product, failed or good. That is the whole point of testing.
5. I like this idea. I also like the idea of deconstructing an item a few times to reverse engineer the recipe.

CROW3

@Fantmx

What do you think about adding some additional dimensions to #1:
1) difficulty of the recipe
2) how many times I’ve crafted that item

So,

A) An apprentice has a higher RNG on a medium difficulty recipe than a master

B ) An apprentice has a lower RNG making an elm bookshelf for the 100th time versus the 1st time

C) A master has a higher RNG making a dragon’s blood & diamond dust potion of power for the first time than making an at level healing potion the first time

This way overall skill, relative simplicity, successful repetition, and maybe experimentation all help mitigate RNG toward success.

Strevi

achereto wrote: »

Instead of saying "I want minigames for crafting" or "I do not want to have any minigames in my crafting profession", let's think about an discuss, what it would need to make it good and acceptable for the majority of crafters.
...
Is there another requirement I missed?

If we call some players "crafters" what are the others?
If the others cannot craft, what will prevent them?
Is crafting supposed to be interesting to non-crafters too?

I mean the players behind those characters can have alts. Why a player would say he is not a crafter?
So far the only reason I've seen in other MMOs is the lack of patience to follow steps described on external wiki sites.

If patience should not be a characteristic of crafting, then it is better to make the crafting system work fast, in one click, with all intermediate steps automated. You put in the ingredients and you get out the result fast or after some time, while you can focus on other stuff like exploration, quests, caravans, sieges and dungeons.

Fantmx

CROW3 wrote: »

@Fantmx

What do you think about adding some additional dimensions to #1:
1) difficulty of the recipe
2) how many times I’ve crafted that item

So,

A) An apprentice has a higher RNG on a medium difficulty recipe than a master

B ) An apprentice has a lower RNG making an elm bookshelf for the 100th time versus the 1st time

C) A master has a higher RNG making a dragon’s blood & diamond dust potion of power for the first time than making an at level healing potion the first time

This way overall skill, relative simplicity, successful repetition, and maybe experimentation all help mitigate RNG toward success.

This is exactly what I have in mind. As we improve we should have more control.

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