Have Healers and Mages Become too powerful?

Over the years of MMO's I have seen the classes evolve into what they're today. Back in the Day in a MMO casters would suffer large interuptions when casting, so any melee on them would greatly disrupt them, hence needing a party for them to have a "clean pocket" to do what they do best which is heal and do damage.

Now over time people wanted to be able to do more content on their own and at least be ablew to have some soloable content, and rightly so, it is boring always trying to find a group.

That being said, have games gone too far in what we have given mages and healers?
So now they can solo any mob, in most cases many mobs at once
Suffer no penalty for being hit
Have shields,escapes,roots

So is their a downside to playing a healer or a mage?

Mage is maybe a bit squishier but that was always the case as it should be with massive damage output.

Healer, seems of any game of late can take on multiple enemies to kill just 1 healer. where are the silences, the kicks, the stuns...

What are your thoughts on todays healing and mages? in games like Archeage mages rule all and it's not even close, in New World Healing Is Top Dog, In WoW Shadow Priest For years and Probably still is Was the best.

I get it, healing is boring, but that doesn't mean when need to make it so OP that they need to be gods to get people to play it.

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Depraved

clerics gonna rule 1v1

TheHiddenDaggerInn

I think what's important to remember is they've stated this is not a 1 on 1 game, and all 1 on 1's are not going to be equal. I would Like to see protection for healers like "Guard Ability" from tanks which sounds like they've kinda have in if you stand behind them.

Really hoping we see everyone in the group doing their part to make the machine run. Just going to take a lot of feedback from all of us, and put our bias's aside (mine included) especially from the past 20 years of gaming which have really strayed away from team and group combat with 8 man groups.

Depraved

clerics should rule 1v1
ill play cleric btw

Mag7spy

specing against a heals as a dps, means you might have a disadvantage against other dps, or just deal less damage in general.

CROW3

Mag7spy wrote: »

specing against a heals as a dps, means you might have a disadvantage against other dps, or just deal less damage in general.

Exactly. My objective as a rogue on my 3s team was to disrupt, contain, and murder healers. I didn’t have the longevity to go toe to toe with a sturdier dps, let alone a tank. Don’t get me started on how dumb Bears were at the beginning of SL.

Craiken

I wouldn't want to go back to the days of Everquest when it was almost impossible to solo as a wizard (or most classes, for that matter). But I do hope Ashes gives us a game where soloing is difficult enough to incentivize grouping. And if some classes (like mages and clerics) are slightly worse at soloing than other classes, that would be fine.

VekoKrava

Healer, seems of any game of late can take on multiple enemies to kill just 1 healer. where are the silences, the kicks, the stuns...

-I do understand what you mean, this is reason why I think CC should be as important as in WoW, WoW is not balanced game 1v1 or 2v2, but if theres multiple healers out there in 10v10, WoW shines in content like that, because it is strategic, and not everyone can play it properly because it is too complex for one to do everything perfect, just look at wotlk 5v5 arenas and you will see what I am talking, or 3v3 RMP vs almost any other comp, RMP is most OP because of high CC imput and high burst, but they are squishy compared to any other melee comp where you just go on 1 target and stick to it until he dies, because of high sustain dmg you dont even need CC with many comps, but with RMP you need to utilize your CC and movement spells so well that it becomes too complex and only good RMP can be OP, if average player plays RMP they will lose almost every match just because how hard it is to play it. Just look at how many variation of CC RMP has to put in to kill 1 target, it is insane how hard it is to utilize perfectly. I know that for a fact because I tried that comp and it was impossible for me to play it like some rank 1 mages and rogues, you need perfect communitation and even with so people survive 4 out of 5 times, so its not all black and white when it comes to RMP, most players dont understand that. (RMP - rogue,mage,priest comp in 3v3 arena WoW).

So i guess it would be cool if some classes like assasins get some kind of good CC like stuns that dont break upon dmg, but other classes like enchanters or summoners / mages, should get soft CC that breaks upon stun, that will make big impact on how you play group content and it should be like that, to counter that we should have some kind of trinket or engineer item that breaks any CC on 1min CD, it should be in game because we all saw how WoW team does it and they do it very well compared to other MMOS or any game just how complex their combat is. As I said some classes in WOW like feral druid have so much healing that they die hard 1v1, but there is possiblilty of killing them, idk how it happens but it sometimes happens, but some classes perform better in group content, like rogues, 1v1 rogue will hardly kill feral just because how feral can outplay it with healing and big armor in bear form.

in MMOs today the biggest mistake is that devs design classes to be similar because that means they will be balanced, I think thats the biggest mistake one can make, every class should be unique, for example ranger class should have big dmg output and high burst when he has range, but when someone gap closes him, he should not attack with bow or gun but with melee weapon that deals half the dmg, mages should be squishy and have CC and high mobility, enchanters should have the least dmg output but the highest CC in team, bards should not deal good DMG but they should buff allies and debuff enemies so much that it has big impact on how they perform, like 20-30% dmg increase buff or mobility speed or to break CC with songs etc... Warrior should be the tankiest of all classes and have slows and aoe kit cleave, healers should not deal good dmg, so much that they cannot kill target at all, but heal and survive, they should not be mobile at all, because if someone sticks to healer and gets through team and get to them, they should need others to peel for them in order for them to get away, they should not have mobility kit at all, but defensives to reduce dmg and heal output to survive at least 2 targets at once, 3 targets should deal with them fairly quickly, problem in AoC is that healers can survive up to 7 targets, imagine that in siege and other healers healing too, they can survive then 30-40 targets at once, its crazy and should not be like that at all. (maybe I added too many, but you see my point). Rogues should be real assasins and as I said they should deal dmg while others are CCed, mage however should not have that kit, rogues should be unique to that, because you risk of dying if you target healer and stun him because of how deep you went into battlefield to risk your life to potentionally burst healer. Rogues should have some kind of stealth to avoid dmg if neccesary 2min cd at least, also they should have mobility kit to gap close to targets easily, but not escape unless they use 1 (1 CD thats important, if you give them too many like gw2, then you cannot kill rogues at all - thiefs).

So please, try not to make all classes similar, instead make complex combat and many variations of CC, one can be fear from necromancer that breaks with dmg, mages could have transform like polymorph to turn you into a useless sheep that also breaks with dmg, rogues stuns and many of them, even like dirty kick to silence healers for 2sec. Warriors can have shouts to fear as well (AOE only fear in game)... etc... I know it wont be balanced at all, but imagine game as it is now, vs 20v20 - 6 healers on each side, how someone can kill anyone if they cannot CC healers properly? I think its impossible unless someone does some mistakes with positioning...

Arya_Yeshe

I played a game called The 4Th Comming where you can evolve your character in any way you want, so from +30 levels I used all my points just to make my spells stronger and have more mana, my character couldn't wear not even cloth armor.

Result was: I could one shot anyone in the server!! Good times.

CaNp0G

A healer definitely should be able to be killed 1v1. As it's been said a plethora of times, the game's going to be balanced around groups with a rock-paper-scissors type of balancing system. Cleric as the main healer archetype is a support class so obviously its kit and strengths are supposed to be heavily centered around group play. When in a group, a cleric can can heal and enable their friends to fight better, but if they get caught alone with by say, a rogue, then it's gg.
Of course there are ways to customize the cleric into a paladin or some dude in heavy armor wielding melee weapons, but then obviously the heals suffer in exchange for higher melee capability/survavibility.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Now the augmented healers I think could have a few more options and depending on their secondary. When I think of a Pure Healer so a High Priest, as the above poster said that is a true healer and is intended for group play. I think of them like a healer in DAoC, don't get caught alone.

HybridSR

Whoever says that healers shouldn't die 1 v 1 hasn't thought much about the consequences.

Steven is allowing dual boxing (terrible mistake). What does dual boxing + strong healers that can't be burst by a strong DPS class get you? Well, all you're going to end up with, sooner or later is a war of dual boxers where everyone +1s a Heal/Res Bot. They can't be easily burst, so why not have them around, a bit hidden, safe, ready to res/heal, swap into party to Ress the main healer if they die? You'd be silly not to, because this has been done in literally every Open World PvP game.

In Lineage 2 , when we went to contest Epics (especially Valakas and Antharas), we had to kill main party Bishops and after that, we were forced to PK their 15 Bishop Bots that were outside clan/Alliance so they never flagged until they Ressed a main party Bishop (meaning if you didn't want their Res Bots to Ress all your enemies, you just had to go red and get karma). Ashes isn't going to restrict how many Clerics you can have in a party (very much doubt that), so the moment you allow more than one Cleric, that just means you can take out the flags to welcome the Heal/Res Bot invasion and the meta will be the most boring thing in the world. A class that has the ability to Resurrect SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BE DUAL BOXED. EVER in any game, but even worse is allowing them to be so tanky that it just makes sense for everyone to have their own Res Bot to Dual Box. Things like this kill a game for me. I don't want to see videos of 15 characters AFK during a Mass PvP because they're all Res Bots waiting to be used. It sucks, that meta sucks at some point where everyone's maxed it just comes down to who brings more dual boxers. This is absolutely terrible for the game, it sucks to win like that, it sucks to lose against that and it sucks to be forced into that kind of strategy/"gameplay".

Healing classes should be paper. They shouldn't be facetanking, they should focus on positioning correctly and the party should protect them, maybe even assign a tank to put a barrier on top of them and aggro the ones trying to kill them. That's how you get a Healer to survive in a Mass PvP. Letting Healers be Tanky for the hell of it instantly creates a meta where every single Healer will go Tank spec, tank items, everything tanky, and then on top of that with dual box you're going to get an army of Heal bots.

That's it.

Don't say I didn't warn you. It's been done before.

Dygz

First we'll have to see how common it is that a strong Healer can't be burst by a strong DPS.
Ashes is designed to be Rock-Paper-Scissors, so there should be a Rock that can break that Healer's Scissors.

nanfoodle

Many wonder in MMOs is why don't more people play healers as they are always needed. Modern MMOs have healers so handy capped it's deadly slow to solo. IMO healers need to be great healers that can also do decent DPS.

Not as much as say a mage or a rogue if they are a melee healer like a Paladin. But 1v1 with their healing abilities, they should be if skilled, be able to stand toe to toe in a fight. This idea that healers need to be just mostly just a healer is backwards. Holy and Evil Clerics had full backing of their God. The more the Cleric aligned with the will of their God, the more powerful they became.

Let's no make limp healers, that their inky role is watching health bars. That's boring and another reason why most don't want to play them.

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

Many wonder in MMOs is why don't more people play healers as they are always needed. Modern MMOs have healers so handy capped it's deadly slow to solo. IMO healers need to be great healers that can also do decent DPS.

Which "modern" MMORPGs?

TheHiddenDaggerInn

Dygz wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

Many wonder in MMOs is why don't more people play healers as they are always needed. Modern MMOs have healers so handy capped it's deadly slow to solo. IMO healers need to be great healers that can also do decent DPS.

Which "modern" MMORPGs?

For reference Dygz, I'm agreeing with you

New MMO's are far from handicapped healers.

Pretty sure New World healers wouldn't fall into the category of underpowered

If I remember right Druids and Paladins were pretty OP in WoW also

Steven wants to bring back the social aspect of MMO's if healers needs help with quests or anything, I'm 100% sure there would be guilds lining up to help them and bring them into the fold. People who play healers should be adored, as it's a difficult role, everyone yelling "Heal Me" and taking the responsibility of keeping the party alive.

In turn it's the groups job to protect that healer and keep them alive, by peeling and guarding.

That's the way it USED to be, instead of watching your group fight, throwing a few AOE heals, being able to tank 4-5 people while healing yourself and everyone else is ludicrous.

ANYONE who is focused fire properly with a assist train should die! that's part of the tactics. It brings back communication, strategy and teamwork.

If Steven truly wants a OLD SCHOOL MMO, then this is the way it should be. If you want to have some damage play a augmented healer. But a Cleric/Cleric should damage like a wet noodle.

oOKingOo

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Mages
I don't feel mages are too strong, at least in the games that I've played in recent years. As long as they are squishy and rely on positioning, it's fine to me. If a mage is smiling with a friendly tank in front of him and starts crying when the rogue pops out of stealth behind him, they are in a good spot to me. My main issue with mages in old games was not being able to cast abilities while moving. That was the worst. Spellshields are a must for a mage, but they should be short duration, like 3 seconds, to avoid being one-shot by some burst if you time it well instead of being a permanently active buff. The base mage shouldn't have heals, but with cleric as a secondary class, heals/magical lifesteal should be possible, especially when combined with the correct gear for such a build.

Healers
I mean, I played ESO, and there is just too much healing around, like every single person is at least running one heal, good heals as well, like half life back in one button press kind of heals. This makes actually dedicated healers somewhat useless. Like, it's still fine, nobody hates healers, but you would probably do more if you had an all-rounder build, being tanky, having heals, and doing damage like everyone else instead of running pure healers. That's super bad imo. The main bulk of healing should come from healers, and the rest from classes that have cleric as a secondary archetype for some self-healing/lifesteal/magical lifesteal. But these big AoE heals should be a cleric thing so they are actually meaningful to bring instead of everybody going healers as a secondary class and nobody playing full healing classes. I feel like healers should definitely be able to at least level up a little bit without needing a group because they don't have a single damage ability. I like how they are making the healer an actual class that has to pay attention in combat instead of being a healing bot basically.

Aszkalon

ILLPeonU wrote: »

Have Healers and Mages Become too powerful?

Mages ? That is the eternal Question now is it ?

Healers ? I'mma gonna be completely honest with you guys here,
Healers "SHOULD" be very powerful -> if Nobody ever stops and interrupts them from healing.

Be it PvE,
be it PvP,

if a Healer is allowed to run around and heal his Comrades - he isn't overpowered. He is just doing his Job.

If People in PvP fight in two Groups -> and one Group has a Healer and the OTHER Group is seeing, that he will do a good Job and they are most likely about to lose this Fight,

they got to get that Healer killed somehow, or should just retreat if they can't. If his tanky or stabby Friends can protect him to well and to good - welp to bad for the Ones who want to kill him. If his Positioning is to good and his Synch with his Group, they are going to win.

What should never be the Case, is that a single Healer is as powerful as several Damage Dealers or other Classes. If a Healer heals twice or triple the Damage that equally geared and equally levelled Damage Dealers make either on him, or the Healers Allys,

this is a Problem. Because the Moment the Community realises playing a Healer is basically a Free-Win-Ticket from like Four of Five Fights or Eight to Nine Fights out of Ten,

then guess which Class most People will play as long as this Imbalance will continue.

Fantmx

Don't know. Haven't play tested them yet.

AnimusRex

Balanced healers and mages just need to bring a friend that can kill whatever class can kill a healer or mage. Easy.

Or learn to run. Really fast.

oOKingOo

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Magicka Sorcerers in ESO (weakest class in the game) is looking at this thread like:

me:

(I mained magsorc for 6 years straight after launch)

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