Don't ban people who exploit.

Take their stuff away sure but I hate the idea of being punished for a developers mistake.

Cheaters no remorse, but people using bugs to their advantage? That shouldn't be ban worthy. Just take away anything they got from abusing the bug.

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bancrofti

Summpwner wrote: »

I don't understand how this is even a point of discussion...

Me either.

Liniker

worddog wrote: »

Btw exploiters are literally your best QA team and they do it for free.

stop with this bullshit.... you opened this thread so you know that the shitty exploiters like yourself have Absolutely NO intention at All to report the exploits and bugs they find

you want to abuse bugs and gain advantage without the fear of being banned - and you have the audacity of saying you do QA for free? lmao...

I'm glad Steven hates cheaters and exploiters - and you will get your ass banned in Ashes.

bloodprophet

Depraved wrote: »

WarRath wrote: »

This is one of the more absurb comments I have ever heard. Dont punish players for abusing exploits and potentially ruining the game for everyone in else. In the ARMYT we refer to this mentality as BLUE FALCON. If were up to me BLUE FALCON get blanket parties.

what is a blanket party? XD

Ever watch Full Metal Jacket?
In the first half when they hold Private Pyle done with the blanket and beat him with the soap bars in the towels.
YouTube Full Metal Jacket beaten with soap.

TheDarkSorcerer

I think if you exploit once, here's a warning for you. But if you continuously exploit something for the sake of in-game gold or end-game gear, you should be banned.

Wandering Mist

(The following is my own personal opinion, and doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone at Intrepid Studios)

To me, this issue comes down to communication. Yes, bugs and exploits do happen, and sadly a lot of times it's unclear if something you've found in the game is an "exploit" or intentional gameplay. This is why communication is important. If the devs know a particular exploit exists, they need to reach out to the community and say "there is a bug with this mechanic, any exploits regarding it will be punished". That way, anyone exploiting the bug has no excuse not to know about the consequences.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

(The following is my own personal opinion, and doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone at Intrepid Studios)

To me, this issue comes down to communication. Yes, bugs and exploits do happen, and sadly a lot of times it's unclear if something you've found in the game is an "exploit" or intentional gameplay. This is why communication is important. If the devs know a particular exploit exists, they need to reach out to the community and say "there is a bug with this mechanic, any exploits regarding it will be punished". That way, anyone exploiting the bug has no excuse not to know about the consequences.

Sometimes this is true, but sometimes exploits are so blatant that no reasonable person could think they were intended.

To me, if an action needs to be communicated as being an exploit, people that make use of it after the point of communication should face suspension and loss of progression, but not necessarily a full ban (maybe a full ban, just not necessarily).

It is those exploits that are blatant, that no one could think were not exploits that warrant outright bans, imo.

worddog2

Noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

(The following is my own personal opinion, and doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone at Intrepid Studios)

To me, this issue comes down to communication. Yes, bugs and exploits do happen, and sadly a lot of times it's unclear if something you've found in the game is an "exploit" or intentional gameplay. This is why communication is important. If the devs know a particular exploit exists, they need to reach out to the community and say "there is a bug with this mechanic, any exploits regarding it will be punished". That way, anyone exploiting the bug has no excuse not to know about the consequences.

Sometimes this is true, but sometimes exploits are so blatant that no reasonable person could think they were intended.

To me, if an action needs to be communicated as being an exploit, people that make use of it after the point of communication should face suspension and loss of progression, but not necessarily a full ban (maybe a full ban, just not necessarily).

It is those exploits that are blatant, that no one could think were not exploits that warrant outright bans, imo.

The problem is that when exploits exist, there is a period of time without punishment. You feel like you're making a mistake by not using the exploit and everything you do feels like a waste of time until the exploit gets fixed.

worddog2

Liniker wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

Btw exploiters are literally your best QA team and they do it for free.

stop with this bullshit.... you opened this thread so you know that the shitty exploiters like yourself have Absolutely NO intention at All to report the exploits and bugs they find

you want to abuse bugs and gain advantage without the fear of being banned - and you have the audacity of saying you do QA for free? lmao...

I'm glad Steven hates cheaters and exploiters - and you will get your ass banned in Ashes.

If you're fine with assuming things about strangers on the internet I guess there isn't any way to argue with you.

You assumed I use exploits in MMO's. I do not. When a game has massive issues with exploits I simply stop playing that game because it isn't fun. I quit New World after the duplication exploits ruined the economy.

If people do not try to exploit the game during the Alpha and Beta, you will have massive issues on launch. People who have experience exploiting games will be the best for the job.

From how toxic your post is, I doubt you actually care about anything I've said...

worddog2

akabear wrote: »

Exploiters pretty much decimated NW. Do not want to see again! Happy to see those that exploit penalized up to banned! Set the ground rules and expectations up front, and just perhaps there will be less that take advantage

Do you not realize banning the exploiters didn't fix anything right? The moment those duplication exploits were found, that server's economy died. They never recovered. You need exploiters to figure out all the problems that the developers overlook, and you need them to do it before launch.

Noaani

worddog wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

(The following is my own personal opinion, and doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone at Intrepid Studios)

To me, this issue comes down to communication. Yes, bugs and exploits do happen, and sadly a lot of times it's unclear if something you've found in the game is an "exploit" or intentional gameplay. This is why communication is important. If the devs know a particular exploit exists, they need to reach out to the community and say "there is a bug with this mechanic, any exploits regarding it will be punished". That way, anyone exploiting the bug has no excuse not to know about the consequences.

Sometimes this is true, but sometimes exploits are so blatant that no reasonable person could think they were intended.

To me, if an action needs to be communicated as being an exploit, people that make use of it after the point of communication should face suspension and loss of progression, but not necessarily a full ban (maybe a full ban, just not necessarily).

It is those exploits that are blatant, that no one could think were not exploits that warrant outright bans, imo.

The problem is that when exploits exist, there is a period of time without punishment. You feel like you're making a mistake by not using the exploit and everything you do feels like a waste of time until the exploit gets fixed.

I'm going to assume you are talking hypothetically here.

The reason for that is because if this is your mindset, you do not deserve to play any online game.

The only correct thing to do if you come across an exploit that is so new that the developers do not yet know about it is to report it to them immediately. Attempting to get some work out of an exploit makes you literally the worst kind of person - you literally are the reason we can't have nice things.

The acronym diaf was literally created for this type of person, and I find it perfectly apt.

akabear

@worddog

Actually banning the exploiters did not fix anything directly. Can`t see how it would as the damage done is not undone by banning the exploiters. However, banning the exploiters does send a clear message that exploiting is not tolerable which should reduce future repeat of that exploit and make the player base think twice before acting on the next exploit.

As for impact, I played NW right through several occasions where there were serious impacting exploits. The game's trading was suspended several times and for a few days at a time. This was frustrating but not a game breaker. The market recovered and shifted. But the market also changed and shifted when they introduced new mechanics and new items, so cannot say never recovered.

In an ideal world, yes issues would be discovered during testing.. but unfortunately testing will always be limited in time and number of players and is rarely comparable to the interactions of the players en mass.

Wandering Mist

Noaani wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

(The following is my own personal opinion, and doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone at Intrepid Studios)

To me, this issue comes down to communication. Yes, bugs and exploits do happen, and sadly a lot of times it's unclear if something you've found in the game is an "exploit" or intentional gameplay. This is why communication is important. If the devs know a particular exploit exists, they need to reach out to the community and say "there is a bug with this mechanic, any exploits regarding it will be punished". That way, anyone exploiting the bug has no excuse not to know about the consequences.

Sometimes this is true, but sometimes exploits are so blatant that no reasonable person could think they were intended.

To me, if an action needs to be communicated as being an exploit, people that make use of it after the point of communication should face suspension and loss of progression, but not necessarily a full ban (maybe a full ban, just not necessarily).

It is those exploits that are blatant, that no one could think were not exploits that warrant outright bans, imo.

Yes, there are certain exploits (like giving yourself near-infinite money in a single go) that are clearly exploits, but there are also a lot of bugs that aren't as clear, and in fact there have been times in the past where a developer has turned a bug into a feature. At the end of the day, it's up to the developers to decide whether something is a "hidden game mechanic" or a "bug" but then they need to communicate that decision to the players.

SongRune

worddog wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

Exploiters pretty much decimated NW. Do not want to see again! Happy to see those that exploit penalized up to banned! Set the ground rules and expectations up front, and just perhaps there will be less that take advantage

Do you not realize banning the exploiters didn't fix anything right? The moment those duplication exploits were found, that server's economy died. They never recovered. You need exploiters to figure out all the problems that the developers overlook, and you need them to do it before launch.

So wait, you were saying "don't ban exploiters before launch"?

There are several types of people in question, differentiated by their reactions to finding an exploit:

1. Realize that something's broken. Try it again to confirm the details, write up a test case and contact support.

This person isn't an exploiter. They're not exploiting the system for any form of gain. This is the type of person you describe as "your QA team". They respect the intended game systems.

No sensible company ever bans these players. It's not even a question. They don't exploit. If a company is the type to ban these players, you usually don't want to play their game anyway, because it's all down hill from there. (See: New World)

This is the most important thing to realize: These are not exploiters. They find an exploit, but they do not exploit it.

2. Find a bug. Realize you can get some benefit from it. Exploit bug for personal gain (with or without reporting it).

This is what an "exploiter" is. Someone who exploits a bug. Not someone who finds it, or even tests it to report. Someone who exploits it.

This person is not healthy for the game. They should be punished. Whether that's a wipe/penalty, or a ban depends on the philosophy of the developers. This is not a person you want in your game, but it is sometimes a person you tolerate. They are someone who chooses to actively disrespect and break the intended game systems to gain unfair advantage of some form.

The usual argument from these players is "everyone is doing it". This is rarely true. It's either just "everyone you notice" (or claim to), or simply means everyone is this type of player and your community is unhealthy in a specific way. Sometimes your game is so fundamentally broken that the community only can be that way, and at that point it's time for server rollbacks or truly severe corrective measures. See: New World.

3. Actively look for bugs. Try to break things and find bug or problems. Then just report them.

This person is a very active version of either 1 or 2. In the case of 1, they are practically your perfect alpha tester. They're not always healthy for a game, because sometimes the things they find (or their breaking efforts) may cause instability, but the response to these people is still GENERALLY the same as the response to 1. No sensible company bans these players. These are the ones that get a warning or get politely asked to stop, if the developers think that they're causing a problem.

4. Actively look for bugs. Try to break things and find bug or problems. Try to exploit these flaws for gain.

These people get the hardest ban hammer, as fast as possible, in all cases. These are #2, but the TYPE of #2 that you can't even afford to tolerate (and which give you no reason to).

No sensible company will ever NOT ban these users. It's not even a question.

In short: It's not about "everyone who touches a bug must die". It's about the health of the community and the quality of the game experience, in all cases. Some companies can be a bit over-zealous. Some can be a bit too lax. But that's always the goal:

- Get rid of toxic (to the game or the community) players who create a negative environment or experience overall.
- Prevent or reduce future harm from these players. You can't know in advance who is going to be a problem player, but once they show you, you can at least prevent them from causing harm in the future.
- Send a message to others who are maybe not actively toxic, but would follow them if not discouraged.

Banning these players does not reverse the harm they have already caused. It's not supposed to. You HAVE to use other tools or methods for that (server rollbacks, patches, "world edits"), and sometimes you never can. But you still have to ban them to prevent the harm they will cause the next time there's a bug. You can never get to 0, but 1000 exploiters is less harmful than 2000 exploiters, and sending a message that exploiting will not be tolerated discourages the player base as a whole from shifting to a culture of exploiting and counter-balances the "might as well" and "everybody's doing it" mindsets, at least as much as a developer can.

Every game company should ban exploiters without question. It's just important to understand what 'exploiter' means, and understand that companies will occasionally choose to tolerate the least impactful ones to prevent non-exploiters from being caught in their nets. Sometimes there are bugs that aren't obvious, and you don't want to call people exploiters just because they happened to follow the path (because they aren't, even if they've happened to profit from an exploit). But every game company should ban exploiters without question.

worddog2

SongRune wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

Exploiters pretty much decimated NW. Do not want to see again! Happy to see those that exploit penalized up to banned! Set the ground rules and expectations up front, and just perhaps there will be less that take advantage

Do you not realize banning the exploiters didn't fix anything right? The moment those duplication exploits were found, that server's economy died. They never recovered. You need exploiters to figure out all the problems that the developers overlook, and you need them to do it before launch.

So wait, you were saying "don't ban exploiters before launch"?

There are several types of people in question, differentiated by their reactions to finding an exploit:

1. Realize that something's broken. Try it again to confirm the details, write up a test case and contact support.

This person isn't an exploiter. They're not exploiting the system for any form of gain. This is the type of person you describe as "your QA team". They respect the intended game systems.

No sensible company ever bans these players. It's not even a question. They don't exploit. If a company is the type to ban these players, you usually don't want to play their game anyway, because it's all down hill from there. (See: New World)

This is the most important thing to realize: These are not exploiters. They find an exploit, but they do not exploit it.

2. Find a bug. Realize you can get some benefit from it. Exploit bug for personal gain (with or without reporting it).

This is what an "exploiter" is. Someone who exploits a bug. Not someone who finds it, or even tests it to report. Someone who exploits it.

This person is not healthy for the game. They should be punished. Whether that's a wipe/penalty, or a ban depends on the philosophy of the developers. This is not a person you want in your game, but it is sometimes a person you tolerate. They are someone who chooses to actively disrespect and break the intended game systems to gain unfair advantage of some form.

The usual argument from these players is "everyone is doing it". This is rarely true. It's either just "everyone you notice" (or claim to), or simply means everyone is this type of player and your community is unhealthy in a specific way. Sometimes your game is so fundamentally broken that the community only can be that way, and at that point it's time for server rollbacks or truly severe corrective measures. See: New World.

3. Actively look for bugs. Try to break things and find bug or problems. Then just report them.

This person is a very active version of either 1 or 2. In the case of 1, they are practically your perfect alpha tester. They're not always healthy for a game, because sometimes the things they find (or their breaking efforts) may cause instability, but the response to these people is still GENERALLY the same as the response to 1. No sensible company bans these players. These are the ones that get a warning or get politely asked to stop, if the developers think that they're causing a problem.

4. Actively look for bugs. Try to break things and find bug or problems. Try to exploit these flaws for gain.

These people get the hardest ban hammer, as fast as possible, in all cases. These are #2, but the TYPE of #2 that you can't even afford to tolerate (and which give you no reason to).

No sensible company will ever NOT ban these users. It's not even a question.

In short: It's not about "everyone who touches a bug must die". It's about the health of the community and the quality of the game experience, in all cases. Some companies can be a bit over-zealous. Some can be a bit too lax. But that's always the goal:

- Get rid of toxic (to the game or the community) players who create a negative environment or experience overall.
- Prevent or reduce future harm from these players. You can't know in advance who is going to be a problem player, but once they show you, you can at least prevent them from causing harm in the future.
- Send a message to others who are maybe not actively toxic, but would follow them if not discouraged.

Banning these players does not reverse the harm they have already caused. It's not supposed to. You HAVE to use other tools or methods for that (server rollbacks, patches, "world edits"), and sometimes you never can. But you still have to ban them to prevent the harm they will cause the next time there's a bug. You can never get to 0, but 1000 exploiters is less harmful than 2000 exploiters, and sending a message that exploiting will not be tolerated discourages the player base as a whole from shifting to a culture of exploiting and counter-balances the "might as well" and "everybody's doing it" mindsets, at least as much as a developer can.

Every game company should ban exploiters without question. It's just important to understand what 'exploiter' means, and understand that companies will occasionally choose to tolerate the least impactful ones to prevent non-exploiters from being caught in their nets. Sometimes there are bugs that aren't obvious, and you don't want to call people exploiters just because they happened to follow the path (because they aren't, even if they've happened to profit from an exploit). But every game company should ban exploiters without question.

People who exploit and report the bugs get banned in every game I've played. I'm saying that people who exploit shouldn't feel afraid to reveal their exploits. If you want to ban people who exploit and don't self-report I'm less against that, but people who exploit and report what they found should never be banned even if they benefited from the exploit. If exploits become meta than people should be exploiting until it gets fixed, it's the best way to bring attention to the issue.

Clevermouse

Hard no on this one bud. Devs don't make exploits, they make bugs then players "exploit," said bugs to their own benefit. this is cheating, and those players who are scummy enough to do it shouldn't be seen again.

Aerlana

worddog wrote: »

Btw exploiters are literally your best QA team and they do it for free.

many players does this, for free, AND without exploiting what they find.
They find bug, try to reproduce one or two more time to do a report as full as possible to make the work of devs easier. and then leave... not doing it 1 or 2h if not more

The bug exploiter will report sure... after abusing it, and getting unfair advantage from it.

worddog wrote: »

People who exploit and report the bugs get banned in every game I've played.

People who reports the bugs are not banned in every game i've played...
3/4 of mmorpg i played, i reported at least one bug i could exploit to get mass money (directly from generating money/components, or indirectly by having stupidly easy kill of some ennemies)

I never got banned.

The problem is not finding a bug, but exploiting it. Many players don't want to exploit, and risk a big sanction is often enough to avoid people exploiting bug... and just reporting them.
The "hey, ok, i abused the bug hours long, and got as much money in those 4 hours that what i get in one month farm... BUT after those 4 hours i did report, i am good guy no ? " is not how it works.

Tyrazaphael

worddog wrote: »

Take their stuff away sure but I hate the idea of being punished for a developers mistake.

Cheaters no remorse, but people using bugs to their advantage? That shouldn't be ban worthy. Just take away anything they got from abusing the bug.

What kind of take is this? Exploiting is a type of cheating. I'd permaban proven exploiters on first offenses and have them appeal it if they wanted a closer look taken. Anyone cheating/using bots, instabanned. People that exploit and cheat ruin games.

Thank Shor Intrepid are keeping to a clean line of developmental stages.

Noaani

worddog wrote: »

People who exploit and report the bugs get banned in every game I've played.

As pointed out already, someone that exploits a bug and then reports it (or even reports a bug and then exploits it until it is fixed) still exploited the bug.

Regardless of reporting, that action of exploiting the bug is what should result in a ban. Just dont do it.

I mean, most players I know have come across bugs in MMO's, and they are always reported. Most of them are associated with some sort of advantage that could be had, yet none of my friends from 20 years of playing MMO's have ever been banned.

This is simply because we chose to not exploit the bugs we find - a concept that isnt exactly hard to understand.

If you exploit a bug, in a game with good management, your account will be banned. It doesnt matter if you report the bug or not - if it results in accelerated progress, it will show up on the servers log file.

joeyohknow

worddog wrote: »

Take their stuff away sure but I hate the idea of being punished for a developers mistake.

Cheaters no remorse, but people using bugs to their advantage? That shouldn't be ban worthy. Just take away anything they got from abusing the bug.

I disagree. Fortunately, so does Steve based on the rhetoric we've heard so far.

While I do agree with the idea that these things need to be sniffed out and fixed before launch, I think it's safe to say it's impossible to find everything.

So yeah, there's a pretty big difference between discovering an exploit and reporting it - and discovering an exploit and then taking advantage of it. The moment a player crosses that line, I lose all sympathy for them and hope for a speedy and very permanent ban.

LordBlank

ClintHardwood wrote: »

I disagree. Ban exploiters or else you end up with a New World fiasco, where everyone abuses every bug as soon as it comes up and tanks the economy altogether.

ban exploiters for bad game designs?

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