Another Idea to Mitigate PVP Griefing

Listen, I'm just spit-balling here. I'm not even saying I think this is a good idea, but with all the recent debate about how to optimize OWPVP and minimize griefing, another idea...

I recall some years ago some a wimpy looking guy who trains at my martial arts studio was attacked outside a convenience store by a very menacing looking, huge dude. The victim beat the attacker badly, had to be pulled off him. He was a trained fighter, but you would never know by looking at him. The moral of the story is that you never know whom you're messing with.

So the "you never know who you're messing with" idea for Ashes. If a green is attacked by a purple and fights back, they have x% chance of a y% increase in stats. Maybe 5-10% chance of a 25% stat boost. But the catch is that the boost doesn't proc until you defend yourself. This would increase the likelihood of a green fighting back, while also increasing risk for the attacker (though not outright making it impossible for the attacker to prevail). If Ashes wanted to limit this to gatherers, maybe make gathering tools have the "chance of stat boost" when equipped.

And I still like the poison pill idea too. Just sayin.

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Azherae

I will instead hope for a good/balanced enough game that a person's skill on their 'good days' or 'when they pretend to be unprepared but are actually ready for you' has the same effect.

Dygz

I'm either in the mood for PvP or not.
Stat boost would not entice me to flag purple if I'm not in the mood for PvP.
I would still stay green in order to punish my attacker with Corruption.

Ludullu

Would this be purely a pvp stat boost or an overall one? How would you balance this for groups of people who could literally have one of them off-group, attack the rest of the group, the whole group hits him back with their weakest attack but they're all now boosted in stats and can engage anyone else at peak strength. And if the stats are boosted even outside of pvp encounters - you got yourself a constant pve boost which would have to be accounted for in the pve design.

In other words, I see this as an idea as bad as the pill one.

Depraved

mcnasty wrote: »

Listen, I'm just spit-balling here. I'm not even saying I think this is a good idea, but with all the recent debate about how to optimize OWPVP and minimize griefing, another idea...

I recall some years ago some a wimpy looking guy who trains at my martial arts studio was attacked outside a convenience store by a very menacing looking, huge dude. The victim beat the attacker badly, had to be pulled off him. He was a trained fighter, but you would never know by looking at him. The moral of the story is that you never know whom you're messing with.

So the "you never know who you're messing with" idea for Ashes. If a green is attacked by a purple and fights back, they have x% chance of a y% increase in stats. Maybe 5-10% chance of a 25% stat boost. But the catch is that the boost doesn't proc until you defend yourself. This would increase the likelihood of a green fighting back, while also increasing risk for the attacker (though not outright making it impossible for the attacker to prevail). If Ashes wanted to limit this to gatherers, maybe make gathering tools have the "chance of stat boost" when equipped.

And I still like the poison pill idea too. Just sayin.

lets say you are minding your own business, farming using your pve build, then 1 or 2 guys gank and kill you. you come back with your pvp build and attack them. they are obviously going to fight back. is it fair that they get the stat boost because you attacked first?

what if someone is trying to mob drop you then you hit him and he hits you back. now you made him harder to kill, he could probably just stand next to you and the mobs aoe will 1 shot you xD. is this fair for you? he was the one trying to grief yet he is getting the advantage with your proposed system.

what if you are with your friends and you see a known party of pkers/griefers and you know they will attack you. since you spotted them first, you will try to kill one or 2 of them using the element of surprise before they turn on you, but now you cant because you attacked first and they get the stat boost. is it fair for you and your party?

CROW3

No, this undermines the risk for people going out into the world. By leaving the comfy boundaries of your freehold you are entering into a contract with the world and all its denizens that you understand you may be attacked and murdered.

I don’t want the world to respond by surrounding me with pillows, I want to get stronger and more powerful so I can effectively push back.

Electronn

Dygz wrote: »

I'm either in the mood for PvP or not.
Stat boost would not entice me to flag purple if I'm not in the mood for PvP.
I would still stay green in order to punish my attacker with Corruption.

Another idea, and this one is for @Dygz ...

A mechanic for people to damage themselves, or otherwise maintain a state of low HP. Basically, make yourself an insta-kill to would-be attackers, who can't see your HP level. So if they attack you, they are risking accidentally killing you, and immediately gaining corruption. This would have the benefit of making them red, so you can come back and kill them for free.

@NiKr you don't need to weigh-in here. Given that it's not part of the current design, and not your idea, we know you think it's a bad idea, so save yourself some typing. Plus, I can do this all night. It's harder to create ideas than destroy ideas, you can do better.

Ludullu

mcnasty wrote: »

A mechanic for people to damage themselves, or otherwise maintain a state of low HP. Basically, make yourself an insta-kill to would-be attackers, who can't see your HP level. So if they attack you, they are risking accidentally killing you, and immediately gaining corruption. This would have the benefit of making them red, so you can come back and kill them for free.

People can see your nameplate and its state of decay indicates an estimate of your hp. If you're always at low hp - people will know it and won't attack you. But any agro mob would most likely one- or two-shot you, and I doubt that stealth mechanics will have an "always on" mode. This would kinda go directly against the explorative nature of Dygz' gameplay.

mcnasty wrote: »

NiKr you don't need to weigh-in here. Given that it's not part of the current design, and not your idea, we know you think it's a bad idea, so save yourself some typing. Plus, I can do this all night. It's harder to create ideas than destroy ideas, you can do better.

Funnily enough I've come up with several suggestions and were completely fine with people arguing against them. That's the whole point of a suggestion - seeing if it's good and finding a better form of it if it's not.

Electronn

NiKr wrote: »

People can see your nameplate and its state of decay indicates an estimate of your hp. If you're always at low hp - people will know it and won't attack you. But any agro mob would most likely one- or two-shot you, and I doubt that stealth mechanics will have an "always on" mode. This would kinda go directly against the explorative nature of Dygz' gameplay.

So a mechanic to damage yourself. Explore at full health. Nameplate looks good.

Ludullu

mcnasty wrote: »

So a mechanic to damage yourself. Explore at full health. Nameplate looks good.

Is it a one-second explosion that gets you to no hp or smth?

And, well, if it is, the most obviousest abuse and exploit of this mechanic would be to bait your attackers into becoming corrupted. Afaik people did this kind of stuff in BDO by taking off their gear so that any attack on them would immediately bring their attacker's karma into negatives.

This suggestion just moves the griefing from one group to the other (potentially much bigger one). If this mechanic is widely used it would just effectively remove owpvp, as it happened in BDO to my knowledge.

Electronn

NiKr wrote: »

Funnily enough I've come up with several suggestions

So admittedly I'm not going to read the 515 posts...curious what suggestions you made on the Gathering and PVP dev discussion, or PVP griefing in general? Might be something good there.

Okeydoke

mcnasty wrote: »

If a green is attacked by a purple and fights back

That's not griefing, it's pvp. If a gatherer who doesn't fight back is killed, that's not neccessarilly griefing either, that's called being contested for your resources in Ashes of Creation, though this will probably be fairly rare.

"In order to stop griefing, one must come up with ideas to stop griefing."
- Sun Tzu

mcnasty wrote: »

@NiKr you don't need to weigh-in here. Given that it's not part of the current design, and not your idea, we know you think it's a bad idea, so save yourself some typing. Plus, I can do this all night. It's harder to create ideas than destroy ideas, you can do better.

LOL get told to sit the fk down Nikr

Ludullu

mcnasty wrote: »

So admittedly I'm not going to read the 515 posts...curious what suggestions you made on the Gathering and PVP dev discussion, or PVP griefing in general? Might be something good there.

I was talking more about general suggestions.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/profile/discussions/NiKr
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/u8s4kc/idea_for_corrupted_vs_bounty_hunters_balance/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/urdz2h/meaningful_gameplay_and_its_encouragement/

With the second reddit one being the weakest of the suggestions and probably the most drastic one.

I did post some general thoughts on other topics in the dev discussion threads, but I use those threads as just a place to through thoughts into rather than discussion ones. I like to read through whole threads and see everyone's views on the topic, but dev discussions usually have a ton of new people who don't know as much about the game and suggest stuff that's been discussed to death already or things that just don't fit the game. And there's hundreds of such posts in those threads, so after posting my one general thought on the topic I just ignore the threads completely.

Ludullu

Okeydoke wrote: »

LOL get told to sit the fk down Nikr

You either die as a one comment andy or comment long enough to get asked to stop

Okeydoke

NiKr wrote: »

You either die as a one comment andy or comment long enough to get asked to stop

lol yep, been there before.

Dygz

mcnasty wrote: »

Another idea, and this one is for @Dygz ...

A mechanic for people to damage themselves, or otherwise maintain a state of low HP. Basically, make yourself an insta-kill to would-be attackers, who can't see your HP level. So if they attack you, they are risking accidentally killing you, and immediately gaining corruption. This would have the benefit of making them red, so you can come back and kill them for free.

Nope. Attacking once or twice to ask for fair PvP is fine.
Shouldn't gain Corruption for just attacking once.

Diamaht

I think we should see what form the griefing takes in game 1st. What ends up actually taking place may or may not considered griefing. We just don't know what things will look yet so it should be tested and used/abused before we compound systems.

JustVine

NiKr wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

LOL get told to sit the fk down Nikr

You either die as a one comment andy or comment long enough to get asked to stop

I don't suppose anyone can finally explain to me who the hell Andy is?

Ludullu

JustVine wrote: »

I don't suppose anyone can finally explain to me who the hell Andy is?

I got no clue either

Never looked into the origins of this particular twitch culture meme. All I know is that everyone's an Andy of some kind.

Dolyem

mcnasty wrote: »

Listen, I'm just spit-balling here. I'm not even saying I think this is a good idea, but with all the recent debate about how to optimize OWPVP and minimize griefing, another idea...

I recall some years ago some a wimpy looking guy who trains at my martial arts studio was attacked outside a convenience store by a very menacing looking, huge dude. The victim beat the attacker badly, had to be pulled off him. He was a trained fighter, but you would never know by looking at him. The moral of the story is that you never know whom you're messing with.

So the "you never know who you're messing with" idea for Ashes. If a green is attacked by a purple and fights back, they have x% chance of a y% increase in stats. Maybe 5-10% chance of a 25% stat boost. But the catch is that the boost doesn't proc until you defend yourself. This would increase the likelihood of a green fighting back, while also increasing risk for the attacker (though not outright making it impossible for the attacker to prevail). If Ashes wanted to limit this to gatherers, maybe make gathering tools have the "chance of stat boost" when equipped.

And I still like the poison pill idea too. Just sayin.

No buffs for one side or the other. Want to give the gatherers a buff? Then take away some corruption penalties as well.

Okeydoke

mcnasty wrote: »

If a green is attacked by a purple and fights back, they have x% chance of a y% increase in stats. Maybe 5-10% chance of a 25% stat boost.

In a way, they're already using a version of your idea with corrupted stat dampening. A repeat murderer will suffer stat loss that scales upward, effectively giving the people he attacks a stat boost on him.

It was a better idea than the poison pill, I can tell you that much for sure lol

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