Dungeon Boss Grinding - PvE talk

Bosses should spawn often 30m - 4hrs. Scaling depending on quality of the drops the bosses possess. And how deep in the dungeon they reside, biome, etc.

Main thing that needs to be balanced is drop rates, and recipe requirements.

Appropriate resource requirements for crafting and proper drop tables. Facilitates grinding bosses and the common interaction of other groups through out the day. Then you dont get piles of groups waiting, but more of a rotation throughout the world of the different dungeons for different componets.

There is just no reasonable way people could obtain sufficient components if respawns are on long extended timers.

You want many people having components they can buy/sell instead of them be clustered into large guilds that will horde or gouge prices.

The uber elite components would be low drop rates. Forcing contesting of the boss area but not guaranteeing success. Making even large guilds to have to stay spread out in the world to gather components.

Side note we need more details for their plans for dungeon content and PvE.

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Okeydoke

Vyril wrote: »

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

Make money in all the other ways possible. Artisan system (gathering/processing/crafting), fishing, grinding regular mobs, grinding elite mob camps, transporting and trading those mob certificates to other nodes for better profit. And some of the lesser contested dungeons that perhaps may exist.

The most lucrative moment for a player, pound for pound, will probably be the moment he loots the highest tier, legendary boss. But how long did it take to achieve that? How many other groups were contesting it? How long did they have to wait for it to respawn? How many times did they die during this process? How many consumables did they use during the pvp contesting and boss fight? Only one of the groups gets the loot. Everyone else wasted their time, other than any incidental grinding they did while in the area.

Meanwhile, my group went fishing.
"Fishing will be lucrative if done well.[7]" - from the Wiki.

A less contested activity and less lucrative than getting the loot from a top dungeon or world boss. But you have a much better chance of doing it non stop.

Every minute that a guild or group is trying to get the kill on a boss and failing at it, is a minute they could have been making steady, more guaranteed money doing something less contested. Every minute that these guilds are contesting these high tier bosses is a minute they're not contesting you with whatever activity you're doing.

The game is an economic simulator of sorts. There will certainly be a hierarchy of what are the best methods to make money. The best methods will be the most contested. This will create an equilibrium. More lucrative but more contested activities may at times be less lucrative than less lucrative and less contested activities.

A lot of this is speculation, but it's the way I envision it.

Vyril

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Bosses respawn timers aren't very reasonable to be argued on without knowing how many of them are out there.but 30min certainly isn't a very reasonable boss respawn time, maybe a elite monster/mini boss respawn time works well with 30min. Way too fast respawn timers diminishes the content value and makes them repetitive/boring WAY faster.

Also, when you say bosses, are you talking about all types of bosses?
Currently, according to the wiki, we know of 4 types of bosses: Raid bosses(~12~15 of them), Dungeons bosses(?), World Bosses (?) and Legendary World Bosses(?)

With ~12~15 raid bosses i would expect a respawn time of around ~6~8 hours for them,
No idea about Dungeon bosses without knowning how many there are,
World bosses probably ~36~60 hours?
Legendary World Bosses probably once a week per respawn?

Dungeon, small group content 8/16.

Player base of 10k not concurrent but log in that day. Let's say 20 dungeons and for sake of calculation. Only 1 boss. 6 hour respawn. 4x a day. 80 kills a day. Each kill can only be claimed by 1 group.

Only 640 unique players get kills. 1280 if all bosses need 16 players.

Now in reality, you will reduce those unique players because server politics and guild dominance and you're likely looking at 3-7% unique players get boss kills.

Screw the 93%, well we can knock off a generous 50% of players that do other content. So roughly 43% of players won't get to kill a boss that would likely want to.

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

Hypothetically of course. Based on hypothetical numbers.

A big part of the game is the economy, if large section of players cant contribute with meaningful loot it's going to cause issues.

Caravans and ships need to be filled, or that content is dead.

Considering Pyroclastic Wyrm (54K HP) which is a lv10 Dungeon Boss
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pyroclastic_Wyrm#/media/File:ss-2020-12-19-01_26_27-00002.png

and Brood Queen (63K HP) which is a lv10 Raid Boss (Raid = 40man)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/4/44/ss-2020-06-01-01_40_18-00001.png

I really don't think Dungeon bosses will be able to be taken on by 8/16 players.

I believe only mini bosses or probably "party bosses"(if that will be a thing) will be dealt with that amount of players.

Content will be tailored for 40, 16 and 8 person group sizes.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Group_dynamics

Okeydoke wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

And some of the lesser contested dungeons that perhaps may exist.

Exactly my point, but this is the 8/16 man content the game is talking about providing. So it's not likely the "lesser" dungeons will be limited.

Mag7spy

I'm fine with those kinds of times 30 min-6h based ont he type of mobs. Also spawns for 48h-72h as well based on the mobs.

If the argument is hardcore guilds will get gear faster than others and be able to do more that doesn't really change anything as if it is only like almost once a day those same guilds will still roll most people and get it.

If the desire is to limit how much a 24/h game will get simply add limits on how often you get get gear from a boss (so if you have done the boss already you get 1/2 or 1/4 the drops, which still allows reasons to help guildies or other people who have not).

For world bosses I'd rather it be more akin to bdo in the old days where everyone has a chance to get something and if you are doing more damage you have a higher chance. While allowing you to pvp guilds you are against to prevent some people from getting loot. This allows general focus on the boss with some pvp between guilds / nodes.

Which allows some people that aren't as big on pvp still a chance to get something from these bosses that spawn every few or three days. Without being like i can't win against a zerg guild and the zerg guild always gets the loot. Which would continue the issue of the larger guilds winning cause they play more at the end of the day.

xMrWoolf

open world short predictable boss respawn timers at dungeons or world bosses where drops are rare/hiogh demand means you are not getting those resources unless you pay the guild that currently locks it down. unpredictable respawns means people wont be camping it and it turns into a who happens to stumple upon it this time or players sit and wait endlessly not progressing in other ways. if the top tier stuff drops in 6 locations every 1 hour odds are a stampede will arrive just in time and typically it will be the dominating guild. if no one knows when it will respawn it creats a healthier environment IMO allowing players to kill it with out the world knowing it even spawned - also making rare gear that much better and exciting.

Mag7spy

I agree the times should have some leeway on being unpredictable.

Vyril

Mag7spy wrote: »

I agree the times should have some leeway on being unpredictable.

xMrWoolf wrote: »

open world short predictable boss respawn timers at dungeons or world bosses where drops are rare/hiogh demand means you are not getting those resources unless you pay the guild that currently locks it down. unpredictable respawns means people wont be camping it and it turns into a who happens to stumple upon it this time or players sit and wait endlessly not progressing in other ways. if the top tier stuff drops in 6 locations every 1 hour odds are a stampede will arrive just in time and typically it will be the dominating guild. if no one knows when it will respawn it creats a healthier environment IMO allowing players to kill it with out the world knowing it even spawned - also making rare gear that much better and exciting.

Agreed, hard set timers won't be beneficial, but require to be in a range and a decent frequency to facilitate player agency / interaction. Part of their gameloop is mob grinding, so you can expect groups to be in and out dungeons grinding other parts of the dungeon and checking to see if the bosses spawn and become available.

Open world dungeons will be populated to facilitate multiple groups within the dungeon.[7]

xMrWoolf

@Vyril you can populate a dungeon enough to keep multiple groups busy and not have the last boss spawn every x minutes and be predictable. it would be nice to have multiple mini boss's on shorter respawn timers also but kept a little unpredicatable as well.. maybe a 15-1 hour gap

the mini boss's could have a chance to drop the rare crafting mats also at a much lower chance though and the end boss has slightly higher chances plus a small chance to drop completed items

Vyril

xMrWoolf wrote: »

@Vyril you can populate a dungeon enough to keep multiple groups busy and not have the last boss spawn every x minutes and be predictable. it would be nice to have multiple mini boss's on shorter respawn timers also but kept a little unpredicatable as well.. maybe a 15-1 hour gap

the mini boss's could have a chance to drop the rare crafting mats also at a much lower chance though and the end boss has slightly higher chances plus a small chance to drop completed items

Let's talk this out.

If dungeons are designed well, you should have at least 4 floors to a dungeon. T1, T2, T3 and T4.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resource_quality

T1: ~30 - 60 min
T2: ~60 - 2hrs
T3: ~2 - 6 hrs
T4: ~6 - 12 hrs

On top of that you can have multiple wings to each floor, with different spawn rates and difficulties.

I think most people are pigeon holing a boss to be this EPIC fight, when they can be general challenges with varying degree of difficulties and loot qualities. These fights just take more time to accomplish leading way for other groups to enter the areas.

Until you hit T4 they can be semi-grindable bosses. T4 is more of a Raid encounter, and not all dungeons would have a T4, and node levels could play a part in that.

Lust69

Vyril wrote: »

xMrWoolf wrote: »

@Vyril you can populate a dungeon enough to keep multiple groups busy and not have the last boss spawn every x minutes and be predictable. it would be nice to have multiple mini boss's on shorter respawn timers also but kept a little unpredicatable as well.. maybe a 15-1 hour gap

the mini boss's could have a chance to drop the rare crafting mats also at a much lower chance though and the end boss has slightly higher chances plus a small chance to drop completed items

Let's talk this out.

If dungeons are designed well, you should have at least 4 floors to a dungeon. T1, T2, T3 and T4.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Resource_quality

T1: ~30 - 60 min
T2: ~60 - 2hrs
T3: ~2 - 6 hrs
T4: ~6 - 12 hrs

On top of that you can have multiple wings to each floor, with different spawn rates and difficulties.

I think most people are pigeon holing a boss to be this EPIC fight, when they can be general challenges with varying degree of difficulties and loot qualities. These fights just take more time to accomplish leading way for other groups to enter the areas.

Until you hit T4 they can be semi-grindable bosses. T4 is more of a Raid encounter, and not all dungeons would have a T4, and node levels could play a part in that.

I agree this sounds about right for me. You can still have fun on the first floors but if you choose to you can journey to the end for the big boss battle. The timers for each section is about right to. I think random times for each spawn could work.

JamesSunderland

Vyril wrote: »

Content will be tailored for 40, 16 and 8 person group sizes.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Group_dynamics

Come on, you didn't even bothered reading the source/reference of that?
Its not refering to Raid Bosses, its literally just content.

Here is the source/reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/aomez2/february_8_2019_questions_and_answers/

Q: Are you still aiming for 40-man raids? What other raid sizes will be available? Will loot tables differ based on the size of the group?

A: We’re still playing around with sizes, but you can likely expect 40, 16 and 8 person sized content. We will be testing dynamic loot tables, but will have more of an idea on that during our test phases.

Sure you may argue on the Raid bosses "boss category" the possibility of High/big(40 man), Medium(16 man)(mini bosses?) and Low/small(8 man)(Party Bosses?) "Raid bosses" but thats just beyond current knowledge and would require different respawn timers based on category.

worddog2

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

That sounds awful tbh. The best part of video games is the accessibility. You can sit down on your couch or at your desk and just play a game for as long or as little as you want, no need to drive anywhere or make plans. I don't think anyone wants a pointless time restriction on when they can and cant play the video game they paid for.

And the majority of people don't have more than 5h a day to play. And iirc, most people play 1-2h a day. So while a few nerds won't be able to play the game for days on end, they also can use that time to play any other game, while the people with limited time can play an mmo with balanced pvp for a change (outside of GW2 arena of course).

You said servers should only be up during primetime, what about the people who can't play during primetime? They just aren't allowed to play?

This doesn't limit hardcore players, they'll always be available during primetime.
This limits casual players who can't play whenever they want.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

You said servers should only be up during primetime, what about the people who can't play during primetime? They just aren't allowed to play?

This doesn't limit hardcore players, they'll always be available during primetime.
This limits casual players who can't play whenever they want.

I was giving a hypothetical example of another mmo that, I think, a lot of people would like.

And the answer to the question would be "tough luck, don't play the game or play on a server that fits your time". And yeah, you could have different servers in one region have staggered primetimes, so it wouldn't be that big of a problem, especially considering that you'd probably only need a few of those due to how few people play in those times.

I do not want this kind of mechanic for Ashes because I'm gonna live in Ashes.

worddog2

NiKr wrote: »

worddog wrote: »

You said servers should only be up during primetime, what about the people who can't play during primetime? They just aren't allowed to play?

This doesn't limit hardcore players, they'll always be available during primetime.
This limits casual players who can't play whenever they want.

I was giving a hypothetical example of another mmo that, I think, a lot of people would like.

And the answer to the question would be "tough luck, don't play the game or play on a server that fits your time". And yeah, you could have different servers in one region have staggered primetimes, so it wouldn't be that big of a problem, especially considering that you'd probably only need a few of those due to how few people play in those times.

I do not want this kind of mechanic for Ashes because I'm gonna live in Ashes.

I can't imagine anyone would want that system for an MMO. That sounds extremely niche at best and game killing at worst.

Ludullu

worddog wrote: »

I can't imagine anyone would want that system for an MMO. That sounds extremely niche at best and game killing at worst.

Session-based games are the most popular ones in the world. Most people only have a few hours a day to play the game and those hours usually fall into the same part of the day (because jobs and social life). This kind of game would, in theory, appeal to exactly that majority. Especially if designed correctly.

Depraved

Vyril wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Bosses respawn timers aren't very reasonable to be argued on without knowing how many of them are out there.but 30min certainly isn't a very reasonable boss respawn time, maybe a elite monster/mini boss respawn time works well with 30min. Way too fast respawn timers diminishes the content value and makes them repetitive/boring WAY faster.

Also, when you say bosses, are you talking about all types of bosses?
Currently, according to the wiki, we know of 4 types of bosses: Raid bosses(~12~15 of them), Dungeons bosses(?), World Bosses (?) and Legendary World Bosses(?)

With ~12~15 raid bosses i would expect a respawn time of around ~6~8 hours for them,
No idea about Dungeon bosses without knowning how many there are,
World bosses probably ~36~60 hours?
Legendary World Bosses probably once a week per respawn?

Dungeon, small group content 8/16.

Player base of 10k not concurrent but log in that day. Let's say 20 dungeons and for sake of calculation. Only 1 boss. 6 hour respawn. 4x a day. 80 kills a day. Each kill can only be claimed by 1 group.

Only 640 unique players get kills. 1280 if all bosses need 16 players.

Now in reality, you will reduce those unique players because server politics and guild dominance and you're likely looking at 3-7% unique players get boss kills.

Screw the 93%, well we can knock off a generous 50% of players that do other content. So roughly 43% of players won't get to kill a boss that would likely want to.

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

Hypothetically of course. Based on hypothetical numbers.

A big part of the game is the economy, if large section of players cant contribute with meaningful loot it's going to cause issues.

Caravans and ships need to be filled, or that content is dead.

1000 players a day can get a drop? damn thats a lot compared to only 9 a day per barakiel

or 1 epic ijwel per week.

why dont the samll guilds join a big guild or ally with them? if someone can organize and manage 2000 players and get the boss, why they dont deserve it? why are the small guilds entitled to get the drop and no tthe guys who managed to organize and get numbers? why is 1 group more special than the other? not everybody will be a winner in this game. the decisive factor will be your ability to win the fights that matter.

and if someone plays all day, why is it wrong that they get more rewards than someone who plays 1 or 2 hours a day?

Noaani

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Bosses respawn timers aren't very reasonable to be argued on without knowing how many of them are out there.but 30min certainly isn't a very reasonable boss respawn time, maybe a elite monster/mini boss respawn time works well with 30min. Way too fast respawn timers diminishes the content value and makes them repetitive/boring WAY faster.

Also, when you say bosses, are you talking about all types of bosses?
Currently, according to the wiki, we know of 4 types of bosses: Raid bosses(~12~15 of them), Dungeons bosses(?), World Bosses (?) and Legendary World Bosses(?)

With ~12~15 raid bosses i would expect a respawn time of around ~6~8 hours for them,
No idea about Dungeon bosses without knowning how many there are,
World bosses probably ~36~60 hours?
Legendary World Bosses probably once a week per respawn?

Dungeon, small group content 8/16.

Player base of 10k not concurrent but log in that day. Let's say 20 dungeons and for sake of calculation. Only 1 boss. 6 hour respawn. 4x a day. 80 kills a day. Each kill can only be claimed by 1 group.

Only 640 unique players get kills. 1280 if all bosses need 16 players.

Now in reality, you will reduce those unique players because server politics and guild dominance and you're likely looking at 3-7% unique players get boss kills.

Screw the 93%, well we can knock off a generous 50% of players that do other content. So roughly 43% of players won't get to kill a boss that would likely want to.

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

Hypothetically of course. Based on hypothetical numbers.

A big part of the game is the economy, if large section of players cant contribute with meaningful loot it's going to cause issues.

Caravans and ships need to be filled, or that content is dead.

Considering Pyroclastic Wyrm (54K HP) which is a lv10 Dungeon Boss
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pyroclastic_Wyrm#/media/File:ss-2020-12-19-01_26_27-00002.png

and Brood Queen (63K HP) which is a lv10 Raid Boss (Raid = 40man)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/4/44/ss-2020-06-01-01_40_18-00001.png

I really don't think Dungeon bosses will be able to be taken on by 8/16 players.

I believe only mini bosses or probably "party bosses"(if that will be a thing) will be dealt with that amount of players.

I think there is some confusion here.

Are we talking about group dungeons and their bosses, or raid dungeons and their bosses?

If you have a dungeon designed for 8 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 8 players.

if you have a dungeon designed for 40 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 40 players.

Additionally, there should be at least a half dozen actual bosses, and several dozen mini-bosses per dungeon. EQ2 has dungeons with several hundred bosses/mini-bosses, and Ashes should be aiming to at least hit 10% of a 20 year old game.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If you have a dungeon designed for 8 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 8 players.

if you have a dungeon designed for 40 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 40 players.

I'd prefer a ton of rooms for an 8-member group, with boss rooms of different sizes (8/16/24) and the final boss at the end of the dungeon for the 40-man raid.

Guilds would have to fight for those rooms, while having an opportunity to have a temporary truce or an alliance. Several groups will have to pull into the same room to fight a boss that just spawned and if they were too far from that room, other people in room between the boss and that group will see a lot of movement and might assume that there's a boss (or just a fight) going on.

Corruption can happen within rooms and any neighboring players can immediately go punish the red if the victim shouted in chat about it.

Rooms with bosses could have mechanics that lead to closing of the entrances to the room, so that pve could be designed to be very hard. Hell, you could even add boss mechanics that might open the doors and players would have to counter them in order to prevent any outsiders from interrupting the farm.

Bosses could mark their killers with kill timers and have interdependent links between those timers and boss mechanics, so that if a 24-man raid has 3 groups that all killed 8-man bosses in super short times - the 24-man boss now has harsher mechanics and better loot.

Imo this would be the best possible dungeon design for Ashes. If Intrepid have come up with something even better - I'll only be glad.

JamesSunderland

Noaani wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Bosses respawn timers aren't very reasonable to be argued on without knowing how many of them are out there.but 30min certainly isn't a very reasonable boss respawn time, maybe a elite monster/mini boss respawn time works well with 30min. Way too fast respawn timers diminishes the content value and makes them repetitive/boring WAY faster.

Also, when you say bosses, are you talking about all types of bosses?
Currently, according to the wiki, we know of 4 types of bosses: Raid bosses(~12~15 of them), Dungeons bosses(?), World Bosses (?) and Legendary World Bosses(?)

With ~12~15 raid bosses i would expect a respawn time of around ~6~8 hours for them,
No idea about Dungeon bosses without knowning how many there are,
World bosses probably ~36~60 hours?
Legendary World Bosses probably once a week per respawn?

Dungeon, small group content 8/16.

Player base of 10k not concurrent but log in that day. Let's say 20 dungeons and for sake of calculation. Only 1 boss. 6 hour respawn. 4x a day. 80 kills a day. Each kill can only be claimed by 1 group.

Only 640 unique players get kills. 1280 if all bosses need 16 players.

Now in reality, you will reduce those unique players because server politics and guild dominance and you're likely looking at 3-7% unique players get boss kills.

Screw the 93%, well we can knock off a generous 50% of players that do other content. So roughly 43% of players won't get to kill a boss that would likely want to.

So what are the players left to do in the game? Harvest mats grind basic mobs ?

Hypothetically of course. Based on hypothetical numbers.

A big part of the game is the economy, if large section of players cant contribute with meaningful loot it's going to cause issues.

Caravans and ships need to be filled, or that content is dead.

Considering Pyroclastic Wyrm (54K HP) which is a lv10 Dungeon Boss
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pyroclastic_Wyrm#/media/File:ss-2020-12-19-01_26_27-00002.png

and Brood Queen (63K HP) which is a lv10 Raid Boss (Raid = 40man)
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/images/4/44/ss-2020-06-01-01_40_18-00001.png

I really don't think Dungeon bosses will be able to be taken on by 8/16 players.

I believe only mini bosses or probably "party bosses"(if that will be a thing) will be dealt with that amount of players.

I think there is some confusion here.

Are we talking about group dungeons and their bosses, or raid dungeons and their bosses?

If you have a dungeon designed for 8 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 8 players.

if you have a dungeon designed for 40 players, then all bosses in the zone should be for 40 players.

Additionally, there should be at least a half dozen actual bosses, and several dozen mini-bosses per dungeon. EQ2 has dungeons with several hundred bosses/mini-bosses, and Ashes should be aiming to at least hit 10% of a 20 year old game.

I really don't think most dungeons will have that "set in stone" amount of players designation, open world dungeons in Lineage 2 were quite diverse in terms of "which amounts of players is required to deal with each room" a single dungeon could have very small rooms that could be dealt with 2~3 players, small rooms for single parties and huge rooms for multiple parties, aswell as Strong Elite monsters/Mini Bosses to be dealt with a single party and actual Bosses that requires multiple parties.

Still, who knows how AOC dungeons will be designed, we will have to see it.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Guilds would have to fight for those rooms, while having an opportunity to have a temporary truce or an alliance.

Nope.

Guilds would gather together 40 players (or 80), charge to the end of the dungeon, kill everyone and every thing, kill the boss and then leave.

if you put 40 person content at the end of a dungeon in an open world game, expect raids of twice that to obliterate everything on their way to that content.

This is exactly what I would do, and what most of the other raid leaders I know would do.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

This is exactly what I would do, and what most of the other raid leaders I know would do.

But the point of an open world dungeon is to have value to the content within the dungeon, not just the boss.

Now I don't think we've gotten any detailed info on mob drops (especially in dungeons) and I don't know how it was designed in AA, but when Steven talked about his favorite dungeons in mmo the first one he mentioned was Lair of Antharas from L2. And there you'd have mobs that had valuable loot, you had several bosses that had good loot (iirc they were on a 24+-h respawn) and you had one of the biggest epic bosses in the game at the end of the dungeon with a week respawn (or maybe even bigger, I forget).

And guilds would take up a few rooms to farm those mobs, they would check for bosses when their timers were coming up and they'd fight amongst themselves for the right to farm all of that.

Unless there's gonna be some repeatable quest that provides you with the same kind of mats that mobs in AoC's dungeons drop - you'll most likely be farming those mobs to get those drops. Well, not necessarily YOU you, but the general you that is players who want said drop and have the time and capabilities to farm it instead of just buying it from others.

That is what an open world dungeon means to me. If you guild is ok with visiting this kind of dungeon only once a week when an epic boss respawns at the end - that's totally fine. And if you manage to somehow farm several bosses on your way to the epic boss, even though their respawn timers will most likely be staggered by the other guilds who're contesting them - that's also cool.

But imo, if Steven wants to have real open world pvp and "soft friction" between people - that's the kind of dungeon he'd need to have in his game, and I'm pretty sure he knows that. Because if all the open world dungeons are just a "go through it once and forget about it for a day or several" - the only friction between guilds would happen on caravan runs and maaaybe from killing innocent gatherers that were just minding their business.

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