worddog wrote: » I read the wiki on this subject and didn't see any explanation. How are they planning on dealing with thousands of players in a single area?
worddog wrote: » If you could show me 2000 players all loaded in the same area without massive latency issues that would prove your point to me. I haven't heard of something like that though.
Liniker wrote: » Why don't you just fucking wait and see for yourself when alpha 2 is live instead of opening dumb threads and trying to argue with members of the community that already tested the game and know a lot more than you do?
worddog wrote: » So far the only response I've gotten is: "Ashes of Creation is a very high tech game that will be able to provide an experience that currently is not possible in other MMOs" Seeing as no one has provided any evidence to support that statement, I've explained that I don't believe that to be an acceptable answer.
Noaani wrote: » worddog wrote: » So far the only response I've gotten is: "Ashes of Creation is a very high tech game that will be able to provide an experience that currently is not possible in other MMOs" Seeing as no one has provided any evidence to support that statement, I've explained that I don't believe that to be an acceptable answer. I'm curious. Since Intrepid have said they will not have sharding, and since they have said they are working on tech to make sure they can have enough players in one are while maintaining stability of servers, exactly what is it you WOULD consider to be an acceptable answer? Keep in mind, Ashes are developing the game with Amazon levels of compute in mind, something no one has yet done - not even Amazon. Everyone else has had to limit the compute needed to run the game to what their server hardware can handle - Ashes can scale up if needed and can basically assume to have as much computing power as they need.
Asgermon wrote: » If there is a bottleneck that causes laggs then in my opinion it is on the user's side not on intrepid's side. Sure the server has to handle a lot of connections and calculations, but in this day and age of cloud computing, intrepid can quickly add new servers to share the load if needed. Besides, servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach, even with the thickest internet connection and the best PC on the market. and if the argument comes up that rendering so many players is problematic i can only say that intrepid (if necessary) plans to generalize the appearance of the players characters which saves a lot of computing power and that the computing power to render the characters has to come from the user. The servers do nothing for the graphics calculation.
worddog wrote: » Asgermon wrote: » If there is a bottleneck that causes laggs then in my opinion it is on the user's side not on intrepid's side. Sure the server has to handle a lot of connections and calculations, but in this day and age of cloud computing, intrepid can quickly add new servers to share the load if needed. Besides, servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach, even with the thickest internet connection and the best PC on the market. and if the argument comes up that rendering so many players is problematic i can only say that intrepid (if necessary) plans to generalize the appearance of the players characters which saves a lot of computing power and that the computing power to render the characters has to come from the user. The servers do nothing for the graphics calculation. I don't know why you're talking about the player's personal computer or connection, that has nothing to do with this. We're talking about server load, not if a player is lagging because they have a weak rig. When you say "servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach" can you provide literally a single example of that in the context of a persistent game world. Ashes of Creation is not going to be using a data center worth billions of dollars to run their game.
Asgermon wrote: » worddog wrote: » Asgermon wrote: » If there is a bottleneck that causes laggs then in my opinion it is on the user's side not on intrepid's side. Sure the server has to handle a lot of connections and calculations, but in this day and age of cloud computing, intrepid can quickly add new servers to share the load if needed. Besides, servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach, even with the thickest internet connection and the best PC on the market. and if the argument comes up that rendering so many players is problematic i can only say that intrepid (if necessary) plans to generalize the appearance of the players characters which saves a lot of computing power and that the computing power to render the characters has to come from the user. The servers do nothing for the graphics calculation. I don't know why you're talking about the player's personal computer or connection, that has nothing to do with this. We're talking about server load, not if a player is lagging because they have a weak rig. When you say "servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach" can you provide literally a single example of that in the context of a persistent game world. Ashes of Creation is not going to be using a data center worth billions of dollars to run their game. I just wanted to make clear that Intrepid has the ability (and I'm sure they will) to use cloud computing services that are extremely scalable (if they program the backend correctly). Intrepid will not buy their own servers and distribute them all over the world. Cloud computing services today offer the possibility to rent the best available servers all over the world, set up your game infrastructure on them and have nothing to do with the maintenance and upgrading of the hardware. I don't know what you mean by "in the context of a persistent game world" but server hardware is designed for use cases with compute intensive applications (as is the case with Ashes). Besides, there is the possibility to add more computing power to the server array with a few clicks (if you use a cloud provider) if necessary. Therefore, the theoretical computational power available to Intrepid is the computational power offered by the cloud provider (which should be several petaflops (quadrillion operations per second)). The bandwidth of a data center will also be more than the internet connection at home. Of course it is a question of money how much computing power and bandwidth, storage, etc Intrepid rents but it is far cheaper than buying and maintaining the hardware yourself. In the end, it depends on the efficient programming of the backend, how performant the game will be. Since Intrepid got some experts from Planetside 2 (has the world record in 2020 with the most players in a fight (over 1200) https://youtube.com/watch?v=MTXcrnjyzqs at minute 12:55) and other big games I am confident that they will make the backend so efficient. and in case there are 10k players in one place the home internet connection is probably not enough. my opinion
worddog wrote: » Asgermon wrote: » worddog wrote: » Asgermon wrote: » If there is a bottleneck that causes laggs then in my opinion it is on the user's side not on intrepid's side. Sure the server has to handle a lot of connections and calculations, but in this day and age of cloud computing, intrepid can quickly add new servers to share the load if needed. Besides, servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach, even with the thickest internet connection and the best PC on the market. and if the argument comes up that rendering so many players is problematic i can only say that intrepid (if necessary) plans to generalize the appearance of the players characters which saves a lot of computing power and that the computing power to render the characters has to come from the user. The servers do nothing for the graphics calculation. I don't know why you're talking about the player's personal computer or connection, that has nothing to do with this. We're talking about server load, not if a player is lagging because they have a weak rig. When you say "servers today have incredible computing resources and bandwidths that a user will never reach" can you provide literally a single example of that in the context of a persistent game world. Ashes of Creation is not going to be using a data center worth billions of dollars to run their game. I just wanted to make clear that Intrepid has the ability (and I'm sure they will) to use cloud computing services that are extremely scalable (if they program the backend correctly). Intrepid will not buy their own servers and distribute them all over the world. Cloud computing services today offer the possibility to rent the best available servers all over the world, set up your game infrastructure on them and have nothing to do with the maintenance and upgrading of the hardware. I don't know what you mean by "in the context of a persistent game world" but server hardware is designed for use cases with compute intensive applications (as is the case with Ashes). Besides, there is the possibility to add more computing power to the server array with a few clicks (if you use a cloud provider) if necessary. Therefore, the theoretical computational power available to Intrepid is the computational power offered by the cloud provider (which should be several petaflops (quadrillion operations per second)). The bandwidth of a data center will also be more than the internet connection at home. Of course it is a question of money how much computing power and bandwidth, storage, etc Intrepid rents but it is far cheaper than buying and maintaining the hardware yourself. In the end, it depends on the efficient programming of the backend, how performant the game will be. Since Intrepid got some experts from Planetside 2 (has the world record in 2020 with the most players in a fight (over 1200) https://youtube.com/watch?v=MTXcrnjyzqs at minute 12:55) and other big games I am confident that they will make the backend so efficient. and in case there are 10k players in one place the home internet connection is probably not enough. my opinion I can't really understand what is happening in that YouTube video but if 1200+ players are actually being loaded and there isn't any delay or latency issues that's a pretty good example. Again, I don't care if players themselves crash or timeout. I only care about server performance because it can cause exploits, bugs, glitches and errors. If a player gets disconnected that won't break the game.
worddog wrote: » Noaani wrote: » worddog wrote: » So far the only response I've gotten is: "Ashes of Creation is a very high tech game that will be able to provide an experience that currently is not possible in other MMOs" Seeing as no one has provided any evidence to support that statement, I've explained that I don't believe that to be an acceptable answer. I'm curious. Since Intrepid have said they will not have sharding, and since they have said they are working on tech to make sure they can have enough players in one are while maintaining stability of servers, exactly what is it you WOULD consider to be an acceptable answer? Keep in mind, Ashes are developing the game with Amazon levels of compute in mind, something no one has yet done - not even Amazon. Everyone else has had to limit the compute needed to run the game to what their server hardware can handle - Ashes can scale up if needed and can basically assume to have as much computing power as they need. They've talked about being able to support 500 v 500 battles. Which I think is a reasonable claim, it's ambitious but not unreasonable. It can also be scaled down, if they can't handle 500 v 500 they can make them smaller. What I'm referring to is the possibility of thousands of players gathering in the open world. That is not something you can just hand wave as "something we're working on." And you cannot scale that down unless you lower server populations, which I don't think they want to do. Sharding ruins immersion, so it's totally fine to complain about it and not want it to be present in Ashes. But if you don't want sharding, you need to provide an alternative. So far all I've heard is "sharding is bad" without any alternatives being provided. Hoping for something better doesn't make it real or possible. If you want I can give an example of an alternative. Not saying this is a good idea, just providing an example. Maybe they could limit player movement. If 2000 players are in a node, the node prevents other players from entering. This would have it's own issues, but it's a real option that exists, not just some theoretical super server.
