NiKr wrote: » Noaani wrote: » How many workplaces do you know that allow their workers to spend hundreds of hours working on just what ever they want, rather than what the product requires them to work on? I ain't got a clue I was just trying to imagine how exactly would a mob-developing process go down. Is it purely and exactly what Steven says to do or do the devs just get a request along the lines of "I want this type of mob that can do this type of thing" and then have to make that to the best of their abilities. And I feel like if its the latter, the devs could make a proper hardcore mob and then present it to Steven saying "this is an example of what we can do at max output. Does it fit your vision or not?" But maybe I'm just delusional about the dev process overall
Noaani wrote: » How many workplaces do you know that allow their workers to spend hundreds of hours working on just what ever they want, rather than what the product requires them to work on?
Strevi wrote: » For sure there are players who do not call themselves PvP-ers but play the PvP aspect of the game too if it is there, rather than doing scripted quests over and over to get a rare drop from a boss. Those players are the target audience, not the pure PvE-ers or pure PvP-ers who obviously want more of their favorite aspect of the game, untainted by the other play-style.
Dygz wrote: » Strevi wrote: » For sure there are players who do not call themselves PvP-ers but play the PvP aspect of the game too if it is there, rather than doing scripted quests over and over to get a rare drop from a boss. Those players are the target audience, not the pure PvE-ers or pure PvP-ers who obviously want more of their favorite aspect of the game, untainted by the other play-style. Yeah, but... I'm one of those players who likes PvP sometimes.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing. Players only wanting PvE are probably not interested in PvP, this is true. In my experience though, this is a very small group of people. Most people would be happy with an amount of PvP along side good PvE - the problem is that all games with open world PvP so far have been more PvP focused with PvE as an afterthought. This is why it appears that many PvE players dont want PvP - there are no games where PvP is the minor aspect to PvE being the major aspect - and as such these games are lacking in quality PvE. Some people would look at PvE playera not playing those games and come to the reasonable conclusion that PvE players dont want to PvP, when in reality it is just that PvE players dont want to compromise on a game with sub-par PvE. And honestly, why should they? If a game wants to attract PvE players that are accepting of PvP, they need to have PvE to attract then - which means being on par with other games. If your PvP isnt on par with other games, then you only have PvP to attract people, in which case you are a PvP game, not a PvX game. Guess it will be interesting to see how AoC turns out since I can't think of any other mmorpg that has a focus on pvp and is doing pve as well. With seeing how players react to it if the pve does hold up. There aren't any that are doing PvP and attempting to have PvE that is anything other than a support for that PvP. So far, I see no reason to assume Ashes will be any different. Steven has said they intend to have good PvE, but has not dared to discuss how they plan on having it actually work. Going by Steven's experience, I see no reason at all to expect PvE past what L2 and Archeage have done. He seems to consider these to have good PvE, where as PvE players consider these games PvE to be so bad that PvE preferred guilds will leave the game after seeing just how much of a joke they are. I mean, I'd love to see it, obviously, but Intrepid won't be able to do it unless they replace Jeff with someone with the testicular fortitude to tell Steven he is wrong about his own game, while on a livestream.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing. Players only wanting PvE are probably not interested in PvP, this is true. In my experience though, this is a very small group of people. Most people would be happy with an amount of PvP along side good PvE - the problem is that all games with open world PvP so far have been more PvP focused with PvE as an afterthought. This is why it appears that many PvE players dont want PvP - there are no games where PvP is the minor aspect to PvE being the major aspect - and as such these games are lacking in quality PvE. Some people would look at PvE playera not playing those games and come to the reasonable conclusion that PvE players dont want to PvP, when in reality it is just that PvE players dont want to compromise on a game with sub-par PvE. And honestly, why should they? If a game wants to attract PvE players that are accepting of PvP, they need to have PvE to attract then - which means being on par with other games. If your PvP isnt on par with other games, then you only have PvP to attract people, in which case you are a PvP game, not a PvX game. Guess it will be interesting to see how AoC turns out since I can't think of any other mmorpg that has a focus on pvp and is doing pve as well. With seeing how players react to it if the pve does hold up.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing. Players only wanting PvE are probably not interested in PvP, this is true. In my experience though, this is a very small group of people. Most people would be happy with an amount of PvP along side good PvE - the problem is that all games with open world PvP so far have been more PvP focused with PvE as an afterthought. This is why it appears that many PvE players dont want PvP - there are no games where PvP is the minor aspect to PvE being the major aspect - and as such these games are lacking in quality PvE. Some people would look at PvE playera not playing those games and come to the reasonable conclusion that PvE players dont want to PvP, when in reality it is just that PvE players dont want to compromise on a game with sub-par PvE. And honestly, why should they? If a game wants to attract PvE players that are accepting of PvP, they need to have PvE to attract then - which means being on par with other games. If your PvP isnt on par with other games, then you only have PvP to attract people, in which case you are a PvP game, not a PvX game.
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be.
Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow.
Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » I don't really know how the hierarchy in a dev studio works, but couldn't AI/mob devs just make good stuff and then present it to Steven? How many workplaces do you know that allow their workers to spend hundreds of hours working on just what ever they want, rather than what the product requires them to work on? And while it is absolutely possible to produce top end PvE content faster than that, it is only possible if the systems and tools to do so are in place. Without those systems and tools, hundreds of hours for good content is an understatement. As to L2's world instances, as I said last time we talked about them, I don't dislike them, they do an acceptable job of half of the point of actual instances.
NiKr wrote: » I don't really know how the hierarchy in a dev studio works, but couldn't AI/mob devs just make good stuff and then present it to Steven?
Dygz wrote: » I'm not paying players to "protect" me from other players. If you enjoy that gameplay - that's great!
Tragnar wrote: » If you drive a PvE player away by non-consensual PvP he is lost forever. Give PvE player a reward for doing PvP and he might become casual PvP player
Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing. Players only wanting PvE are probably not interested in PvP, this is true. In my experience though, this is a very small group of people. Most people would be happy with an amount of PvP along side good PvE - the problem is that all games with open world PvP so far have been more PvP focused with PvE as an afterthought. This is why it appears that many PvE players dont want PvP - there are no games where PvP is the minor aspect to PvE being the major aspect - and as such these games are lacking in quality PvE. Some people would look at PvE playera not playing those games and come to the reasonable conclusion that PvE players dont want to PvP, when in reality it is just that PvE players dont want to compromise on a game with sub-par PvE. And honestly, why should they? If a game wants to attract PvE players that are accepting of PvP, they need to have PvE to attract then - which means being on par with other games. If your PvP isnt on par with other games, then you only have PvP to attract people, in which case you are a PvP game, not a PvX game. Guess it will be interesting to see how AoC turns out since I can't think of any other mmorpg that has a focus on pvp and is doing pve as well. With seeing how players react to it if the pve does hold up. There aren't any that are doing PvP and attempting to have PvE that is anything other than a support for that PvP. So far, I see no reason to assume Ashes will be any different. Steven has said they intend to have good PvE, but has not dared to discuss how they plan on having it actually work. Going by Steven's experience, I see no reason at all to expect PvE past what L2 and Archeage have done. He seems to consider these to have good PvE, where as PvE players consider these games PvE to be so bad that PvE preferred guilds will leave the game after seeing just how much of a joke they are. I mean, I'd love to see it, obviously, but Intrepid won't be able to do it unless they replace Jeff with someone with the testicular fortitude to tell Steven he is wrong about his own game, while on a livestream. That is not how things work, you hire someone to create and support the vision you have...Not someone to make you have development issues and waste money trying to fight against what is desired.
Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » PvE players don't want to do anything PvP and will avoid it without trying to attempting to grow. I disagree with this statement entirely. I spent 10 years as a purely PvE MMO player, then moved over to a mostly PvP setting. In my experience of top end PvE players, most of us are quite happy to PvP, but we dont want to play a game to PvP if it means we cant also have top end PvE (why few PvE players stuck with Archeage). Put a game up that has top end PvE on par with any other game on the market, put some PvP aspects in, and you'll pull both top end PvE players, as well as many PvP players who will love the chance to take on said top end PvE players and take their top end loot. That is what Ashes *should* be. I don't believe this applies tot he normal player just wanting to play a pve mmorpg and isn't really in any kind of constant end game scene. But hopefully I can be wrong, just not may experience talking to some people that do pve and confused at them avoiding pvp content like the plague or me needing to do some serious convincing. Players only wanting PvE are probably not interested in PvP, this is true. In my experience though, this is a very small group of people. Most people would be happy with an amount of PvP along side good PvE - the problem is that all games with open world PvP so far have been more PvP focused with PvE as an afterthought. This is why it appears that many PvE players dont want PvP - there are no games where PvP is the minor aspect to PvE being the major aspect - and as such these games are lacking in quality PvE. Some people would look at PvE playera not playing those games and come to the reasonable conclusion that PvE players dont want to PvP, when in reality it is just that PvE players dont want to compromise on a game with sub-par PvE. And honestly, why should they? If a game wants to attract PvE players that are accepting of PvP, they need to have PvE to attract then - which means being on par with other games. If your PvP isnt on par with other games, then you only have PvP to attract people, in which case you are a PvP game, not a PvX game. Guess it will be interesting to see how AoC turns out since I can't think of any other mmorpg that has a focus on pvp and is doing pve as well. With seeing how players react to it if the pve does hold up. There aren't any that are doing PvP and attempting to have PvE that is anything other than a support for that PvP. So far, I see no reason to assume Ashes will be any different. Steven has said they intend to have good PvE, but has not dared to discuss how they plan on having it actually work. Going by Steven's experience, I see no reason at all to expect PvE past what L2 and Archeage have done. He seems to consider these to have good PvE, where as PvE players consider these games PvE to be so bad that PvE preferred guilds will leave the game after seeing just how much of a joke they are. I mean, I'd love to see it, obviously, but Intrepid won't be able to do it unless they replace Jeff with someone with the testicular fortitude to tell Steven he is wrong about his own game, while on a livestream. That is not how things work, you hire someone to create and support the vision you have...Not someone to make you have development issues and waste money trying to fight against what is desired. I would totally agree with you if we were talking about a studio lead with experience. We are not. As such, their development lead (all leads at Intrepid) need to have the balls to say no to Steven, and explain to him why that is the case. That doesnt mean saying no to everything, you pick your battles. If an employer hires someone with expertise they themselves do not possess, that employee needs to feel they can say no to their employer. If you do not listen to your experienced employees when they say no, why are you even hiring that experience? As someone that spend decades as that expert telling my bosses why their ideas wouldn't work how they think they would (and coming up with ideas that would work for them), and now in a position where I am that boss hiring people in fields I have no idea about and listening to and trusting their expertise, I can say without exception there is nothing worse than working for someone that will not listen to expertise that they themselves do not possess.
