So far your entire argument seems to be allowing players to abuse found exploits which is baffling. You can find exploits to have fixed without actually abusing them and disrupting the games intended design. By your logic it is entirely ok to allow a player to dupe millions of gold if they found a means to do so, and let them do so unpunished.
So far your entire argument seems to be that exploiters are fine as long as they are hated and eventually banned after disrupting the game for people who do not engage with exploits.
I'm actually more anti-exploiter than you are because I want them not to exist in games I play. You want them to exist you just want them to get banned after they've already destroyed the game.
The only reason I can imagine you'd be defending exploits is because you prefer argumentation over communication when it comes to forum discussion. Which is perfectly fine and common, I respect your engagement in any form that it takes.
So far your entire argument seems to be allowing players to abuse found exploits which is baffling. You can find exploits to have fixed without actually abusing them and disrupting the games intended design. By your logic it is entirely ok to allow a player to dupe millions of gold if they found a means to do so, and let them do so unpunished.
So far your entire argument seems to be that exploiters are fine as long as they are hated and eventually banned after disrupting the game for people who do not engage with exploits.
I'm actually more anti-exploiter than you are because I want them not to exist in games I play. You want them to exist you just want them to get banned after they've already destroyed the game.
The only reason I can imagine you'd be defending exploits is because you prefer argumentation over communication when it comes to forum discussion. Which is perfectly fine and common, I respect your engagement in any form that it takes.
Explain to me how I want exploiters in the game when I want them to be banned for exploiting, and also explain to me how you don't want exploiters in the game, yet not banned for exploiting? Sounds like a contradiction to me.
There is no such thing as an MMO without problems missed during development. So naturally there will be exploits, and people who will abuse those exploits. Establishing at the start of the game that people who abuse exploits will be banned will eliminate a good portion of those people from even participating in the abuse. The ones who exploit anyway will eventually be banned and that improves the quality of players in the community. This won't mean there wont be plenty of people happy to find and report bugs/exploits without actually utilizing any of them for personal gain.
You seem to believe that the people abusing exploits are the only thing that allows them to be fixed? The only thing that concept could be based off of is if the company/developers themselves didnt give a shit about improving the game, and only made changes when they had to due to a playerbase getting loud about people exploiting in the game.
So far your entire argument seems to be allowing players to abuse found exploits which is baffling. You can find exploits to have fixed without actually abusing them and disrupting the games intended design. By your logic it is entirely ok to allow a player to dupe millions of gold if they found a means to do so, and let them do so unpunished.
So far your entire argument seems to be that exploiters are fine as long as they are hated and eventually banned after disrupting the game for people who do not engage with exploits.
I'm actually more anti-exploiter than you are because I want them not to exist in games I play. You want them to exist you just want them to get banned after they've already destroyed the game.
The only reason I can imagine you'd be defending exploits is because you prefer argumentation over communication when it comes to forum discussion. Which is perfectly fine and common, I respect your engagement in any form that it takes.
Explain to me how I want exploiters in the game when I want them to be banned for exploiting, and also explain to me how you don't want exploiters in the game, yet not banned for exploiting? Sounds like a contradiction to me.
There is no such thing as an MMO without problems missed during development. So naturally there will be exploits, and people who will abuse those exploits. Establishing at the start of the game that people who abuse exploits will be banned will eliminate a good portion of those people from even participating in the abuse. The ones who exploit anyway will eventually be banned and that improves the quality of players in the community. This won't mean there wont be plenty of people happy to find and report bugs/exploits without actually utilizing any of them for personal gain.
You seem to believe that the people abusing exploits are the only thing that allows them to be fixed? The only thing that concept could be based off of is if the company/developers themselves didnt give a shit about improving the game, and only made changes when they had to due to a playerbase getting loud about people exploiting in the game.
If exploits exist, exploitation will exist because you can't ban them until they've actually exploited something and at that point it's already too late, the damage is done. Banning exploiters is great for punishing bad behavior, but it doesn't prevent bad behavior, only fixing exploits does that.
Banning exploiters prevents those people from exploiting again. Damage will be done regardless, the only way there wont be damage is if there isnt a single exploit which wont happen. So while you fix exploits, ban the exploiters to prevent them from continuing to damage the game.
Banning exploiters prevents those people from exploiting again. Damage will be done regardless, the only way there wont be damage is if there isnt a single exploit which wont happen. So while you fix exploits, ban the exploiters to prevent them from continuing to damage the game.
Banning exploiters does not prevent those people from exploiting again. It makes it harder because they need to make a new account.
It also does not stop people who haven't exploited from becoming exploiters.
Again, the damage has to be done before it can be punished. I prefer prevention, if you disagree I respect your opinion.
There are games without game breaking exploits. I understand lazy developers have tried to normalize the mindset that bugs are just funny little features but games used to not be broken on arrival. Games have actually gotten a lot worse from a QA perspective. Games bricking consoles and being filled with graphical glitches and crashes. Exploits that do not cause massive issues are obviously more acceptable, but the goal should be zero exploits, and that should be the mindset of the developers. If you want an ambitious game don't set the bar so low.
Banning exploiters prevents those people from exploiting again. Damage will be done regardless, the only way there wont be damage is if there isnt a single exploit which wont happen. So while you fix exploits, ban the exploiters to prevent them from continuing to damage the game.
Banning exploiters does not prevent those people from exploiting again. It makes it harder because they need to make a new account.
It also does not stop people who haven't exploited from becoming exploiters.
Again, the damage has to be done before it can be punished. I prefer prevention, if you disagree I respect your opinion.
There are games without game breaking exploits. I understand lazy developers have tried to normalize the mindset that bugs are just funny little features but games used to not be broken on arrival. Games have actually gotten a lot worse from a QA perspective. Games bricking consoles and being filled with graphical glitches and crashes. Exploits that do not cause massive issues are obviously more acceptable, but the goal should be zero exploits, and that should be the mindset of the developers. If you want an ambitious game don't set the bar so low.
Never said they shouldn't strive for a game without exploits. I am simply being realistic. I don't think a single MMORPG has ever released without bugs or exploits. And so what if they make a new account? They still have to spend more time to be able to get back to where they were or acquire what they need to exploit again. Then they get banned again, wasting their time and feeding intrepid more money each time they start over and try to mess up the game with exploits. And thats assuming their credit card doesnt get banned or their IP if they dont have a VPN. Make it harder for them to get back in, and during that time the devs can fix the exploit so minimum damage occurs.
By allowing exploiters to exist, you create a metal detector for exploits. Instead of only the top guilds knowing secret exploits that they can use for their own gain, random players can show the world these exploits and the developers can more easily fix them.
Except you don't need said random players to exploit the bug in order to find it. This problem has been solved for over 20 years in a different MMO - Kingdom of Loathing. They will mercilessly perma-ban anyone who performs a serious exploit...but at the same time, there is always a prominent "Report Bug" button throughout their UI, and if you do find something legitimately damaging, you get awarded a special weapon that is both very functional and can be shown off to whoever you want. Heck, they even have a "Bigger bugfinder blade" if you find something horrendous enough to cause major damage to the game, like item duping exploits that would ruin the economy.
It's just the same as in the real security world. If you allow for responsible disclosure, you listen to your reporter, and you offer those who find your bugs either a reward, recognition, or both, while still banning any exploiters you detect, this will create a healthy environment for everyone. To my knowledge, there haven't been any major economic bugs in fifteen years in the game due to the effectiveness of this policy.
There are plenty of people who will poke around your game, find problems, and let you know, because that's something those people find fun. Or you have people like me, who break every piece of technology they interact with in new and exciting ways. You don't have to take the damage to your game's culture that letting exploiters run wild would create when there are so many easier ways to get the bug reports you need.
I've never heard of that game but that sounds pretty good. I'm only taking about my experience with games I've played, and QA teams I've seen. QA tends to be really low on the priority list for a lot of studios.
Remember kids, the existing exploit itself isn't what ruins the game. Its the people actually taking advantage of the exploit that ruin it.
If exploits don't ruin the game, developers should not waste their precious time fixing them, when they could just ban the people who exploit them.
The only reason you would fix exploits, is if they themselves were bad.
I mean, he didn't say to not fix the exploit, he said to ban the exploiter. There was literally no mention at all of not fixing the exploit.
As has been pointed out to you a number of times, these two things are not mutually exclusive. Developers can - and generally do - actually do both of them.
So, once again, where has literally ANYONE other than you said they shouldn't fix exploits?
If exploits exist, exploitation will exist because you can't ban them until they've actually exploited something and at that point it's already too late, the damage is done. Banning exploiters is great for punishing bad behavior, but it doesn't prevent bad behavior, only fixing exploits does that.
You continue, again and again to consider that this is a choice : ban exploiters or fix bugs (even more if they are source of exploit)
But no, there is a third way : banning exploiters AND fixing bugs.
Point one post where anyone said "do not fix bugs, just ban exploiters"
No one said this
People always defended to ban exploiters, because it is obvious for anyone that the bugs have to be fixed. And also because this topic is about the ban of exploiters
Exploiters pretty much decimated NW. Do not want to see again! Happy to see those that exploit penalized up to banned! Set the ground rules and expectations up front, and just perhaps there will be less that take advantage
Do you not realize banning the exploiters didn't fix anything right? The moment those duplication exploits were found, that server's economy died. They never recovered. You need exploiters to figure out all the problems that the developers overlook, and you need them to do it before launch.
if you find a bug in the game, you are supposed to report it and not exploit it.
I'm starting to wonder if OP is just trolling, considering another topic he made
Did I make a post saying to ban exploiters? Why would I be trolling
He's saying you made a post about a potential Corruption Exploit, followed by a post saying "Don't ban exploiters".
I don't see the relation. I understand they both have the word exploit, but one is about how banning people doesn't go back in time and stop the damage, and the other is more so just trying to get people to talk about the corruption system.
same mentality
Can I ask what you think the point of this current post is? "Dont Ban People Who Exploit" what do you think the reason I'm making this post is.
trolling? wanting to exploit? because saying banning exploiters doesn't work is a load of BS. You use New World in your arguments. But that game is so broken, it's insane. Plus, wasn't the developers slow to react, if they even did punish the exploiters. No, you punish the exploiters hard
So far your entire argument seems to be allowing players to abuse found exploits which is baffling. You can find exploits to have fixed without actually abusing them and disrupting the games intended design. By your logic it is entirely ok to allow a player to dupe millions of gold if they found a means to do so, and let them do so unpunished.
So far your entire argument seems to be that exploiters are fine as long as they are hated and eventually banned after disrupting the game for people who do not engage with exploits.
I'm actually more anti-exploiter than you are because I want them not to exist in games I play. You want them to exist you just want them to get banned after they've already destroyed the game.
The only reason I can imagine you'd be defending exploits is because you prefer argumentation over communication when it comes to forum discussion. Which is perfectly fine and common, I respect your engagement in any form that it takes.
You live in your own little world. Or you are just trolling
Remember kids, exploits are totally fine and developers shouldn't fix them.
Where has anyone other than you said this?
He might be a minecraft player using complicated item dupping tricks
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hi everyone.
I'd like to remind you all that just because someone disagrees with your point of view, or you don't understand their point of view doesn't mean they are trolling. Please can we stop accusing each other of trolling and stick to debating the arguments brought up.
I'd like to remind you all that just because someone disagrees with your point of view, or you don't understand their point of view doesn't mean they are trolling. Please can we stop accusing each other of trolling and stick to debating the arguments brought up.
Attack the argument, NOT the user. Thanks
But OP keeps ignoring ½ the arguments used against him. Then twists what people say.
I'd like to remind you all that just because someone disagrees with your point of view, or you don't understand their point of view doesn't mean they are trolling. Please can we stop accusing each other of trolling and stick to debating the arguments brought up.
Attack the argument, NOT the user. Thanks
But OP keeps ignoring ½ the arguments used against him. Then twists what people say.
Yuuuup and straight assuming exploits won't be fixed / tracked and wanting to argue with people based on that.
Thankfully, AoC has already stated that exploiters will be punished, so all of @worddog 's comments, and his odd plea in the first post of this thread, are moot.
"Security systems will be in place to combat cheating, exploiting, botting, gold selling/real money transactions (RMT), item duplication and other things that affect the economy starting from Alpha-0.[1][2][3][4]"
I'd personally really like it if Intrepid altered their position from the above to something more akin to "attack the argument, but if the poster that made that argument ignores logical debate time and again, then feel free to just attack that poster."
Comments
So far your entire argument seems to be that exploiters are fine as long as they are hated and eventually banned after disrupting the game for people who do not engage with exploits.
I'm actually more anti-exploiter than you are because I want them not to exist in games I play. You want them to exist you just want them to get banned after they've already destroyed the game.
The only reason I can imagine you'd be defending exploits is because you prefer argumentation over communication when it comes to forum discussion. Which is perfectly fine and common, I respect your engagement in any form that it takes.
Explain to me how I want exploiters in the game when I want them to be banned for exploiting, and also explain to me how you don't want exploiters in the game, yet not banned for exploiting? Sounds like a contradiction to me.
There is no such thing as an MMO without problems missed during development. So naturally there will be exploits, and people who will abuse those exploits. Establishing at the start of the game that people who abuse exploits will be banned will eliminate a good portion of those people from even participating in the abuse. The ones who exploit anyway will eventually be banned and that improves the quality of players in the community. This won't mean there wont be plenty of people happy to find and report bugs/exploits without actually utilizing any of them for personal gain.
You seem to believe that the people abusing exploits are the only thing that allows them to be fixed? The only thing that concept could be based off of is if the company/developers themselves didnt give a shit about improving the game, and only made changes when they had to due to a playerbase getting loud about people exploiting in the game.
If exploits exist, exploitation will exist because you can't ban them until they've actually exploited something and at that point it's already too late, the damage is done. Banning exploiters is great for punishing bad behavior, but it doesn't prevent bad behavior, only fixing exploits does that.
Banning exploiters does not prevent those people from exploiting again. It makes it harder because they need to make a new account.
It also does not stop people who haven't exploited from becoming exploiters.
Again, the damage has to be done before it can be punished. I prefer prevention, if you disagree I respect your opinion.
There are games without game breaking exploits. I understand lazy developers have tried to normalize the mindset that bugs are just funny little features but games used to not be broken on arrival. Games have actually gotten a lot worse from a QA perspective. Games bricking consoles and being filled with graphical glitches and crashes. Exploits that do not cause massive issues are obviously more acceptable, but the goal should be zero exploits, and that should be the mindset of the developers. If you want an ambitious game don't set the bar so low.
If exploits don't ruin the game, developers should not waste their precious time fixing them, when they could just ban the people who exploit them.
The only reason you would fix exploits, is if they themselves were bad.
Never said they shouldn't strive for a game without exploits. I am simply being realistic. I don't think a single MMORPG has ever released without bugs or exploits. And so what if they make a new account? They still have to spend more time to be able to get back to where they were or acquire what they need to exploit again. Then they get banned again, wasting their time and feeding intrepid more money each time they start over and try to mess up the game with exploits. And thats assuming their credit card doesnt get banned or their IP if they dont have a VPN. Make it harder for them to get back in, and during that time the devs can fix the exploit so minimum damage occurs.
I mean, he didn't say to not fix the exploit, he said to ban the exploiter. There was literally no mention at all of not fixing the exploit.
As has been pointed out to you a number of times, these two things are not mutually exclusive. Developers can - and generally do - actually do both of them.
So, once again, where has literally ANYONE other than you said they shouldn't fix exploits?
You continue, again and again to consider that this is a choice : ban exploiters or fix bugs (even more if they are source of exploit)
But no, there is a third way : banning exploiters AND fixing bugs.
Point one post where anyone said "do not fix bugs, just ban exploiters"
No one said this
People always defended to ban exploiters, because it is obvious for anyone that the bugs have to be fixed. And also because this topic is about the ban of exploiters
Ban exploiters and fix bugs.
Drinking refreshing snowflakes tears
if you find a bug in the game, you are supposed to report it and not exploit it.
Drinking refreshing snowflakes tears
This guy is a troll confirmed, he argues on points and removes actual logic so he can continue to argue things to spam the forum and threads.
trolling? wanting to exploit? because saying banning exploiters doesn't work is a load of BS. You use New World in your arguments. But that game is so broken, it's insane. Plus, wasn't the developers slow to react, if they even did punish the exploiters. No, you punish the exploiters hard
You live in your own little world. Or you are just trolling
"Remember kids, don't do drugs"
He might be a minecraft player using complicated item dupping tricks
I'd like to remind you all that just because someone disagrees with your point of view, or you don't understand their point of view doesn't mean they are trolling. Please can we stop accusing each other of trolling and stick to debating the arguments brought up.
Attack the argument, NOT the user. Thanks
But OP keeps ignoring ½ the arguments used against him. Then twists what people say.
Yuuuup and straight assuming exploits won't be fixed / tracked and wanting to argue with people based on that.
"Security systems will be in place to combat cheating, exploiting, botting, gold selling/real money transactions (RMT), item duplication and other things that affect the economy starting from Alpha-0.[1][2][3][4]"
Would make the forums here much better, imo.