Definition of Griefing

https://clips.twitch.tv/ResourcefulBoxyZebraThunBeast-6jZ7whi4c5uAgfFO

Steven: "...impacting your gameplay in a negative, harassing and repetitive manner - [where] the motivation to do that action is less about their personal advancement, and more about impacting your gameplay because when they elicit the response of anger or rage from the player, they feel a sense of accomplishment. That, imo, is what griefing is."

Context: what is healthy risk, and where does it become unhealthy griefing?

Takeaways:

healthy risk - other players have the right to impact my progress
unhealthy risk (grief) - other players using these rights to elicit a response from me

This is really clear, and I appreciate it - but humans be human - we are rarely motivated by 1 pure motivation, despite such a clear definition of griefing. So I have a question:

The corruption system aims to curtail griefing from the offender's end, but there's a secondary way we can disrupt a griefer:

Bolster the victim's ability to remain calm when being griefed.

Have there been other games that helped you keep your cool? How did they do it?

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Comments

Strevi

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Also, AoC is not even a full loot game... why so much outcry about "griefing"?

You guys die 57 times trying to raid a dungeon but then if someone kills you half a dozen times then it's griefing?
We better start waking up.

I hope AoC will stay with the initially intended way of having the same penalties when killed by an NPC as when killed by a player

Death penalties do not differ between PvP and PvE, but this is subject to change.[27]

Craiken

I would like Steven to give examples of green-player killing that he wants to see. What situations is he hoping will occur? Here are some examples. Which of these are healthy?

-Killing someone whenever they travel with a fully-loaded mule
-Killing someone for the opportunity to harvest a rare resource or fight a rare spawn
-Killing someone to prevent them from harvesting/grinding in your area
-Killing someone who is trying to obtain a siege scroll for your node
-Killing someone whenever they enter a dungeon you're farming
-Killing someone for roleplay reasons (e.g., hating orcs)
-Killing someone repeatedly to prevent them from leveling up a node that's competing with yours
-Killing someone repeatedly to reduce competition for housing in your area

A player could feel like the target of griefing even if their killer has no interest in generating an emotional response.

Strevi

@Craiken the fully loaded mule will give a tuned down corruption according to the latest stream.
The various corruption levels are not clear to me yet.

wrms

My understanding of it was that it probably wouldn't be considered harassment unless you were trying to bypass the consequences of the corruption system. So if you killed a player repeatedly to try to make them leave your node, but you got a ton of corruption for it, that probably isnt harassment since you have the consequences of corruption.

If however you followed a player around, consistently attacking them until they were low hp and then stopping, training mobs on them, basically anything you could think of to annoy them and make their game experience unpleasant without getting any corruption, that would probably be actionable harassment.

Depraved

killing someone for a farming spot or because you know they got loot isnt griefing, even if you just mob drop them or hit them and get them low enough so they die to a mob.

Dygz

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Seems legit!

This is what Intrepid Studios has to make people understand that everything is a fight!
Fight for resources, fight for the land management, fight for the best gear, fight for controlling a node politcally and everything else is a fight too.

When you understand that you are inserted in such enviroment then you won't cry if you die a few times, just like while playing Battlefield or Halo.

I don't play Battlefield or Halo.
I don't play PvP-centric games.
So... yeah, Intrepid needs to be clear that Ashes is a PvP-centric game.
I agree.

Arya_Yeshe

Griefing only exists when the interactions are one sided or partial

If both parties have systems that let you flee-or-flight then it's fine

My only concern is that green griefers come to your area and completely poop on you and walk away laughing at you. At least in some cases guild wars and node wars will help.

Arya_Yeshe

Dygz wrote: »

I don't play Battlefield or Halo.
I don't play PvP-centric games.
So... yeah, Intrepid needs to be clear that Ashes is a PvP-centric game.
I agree.

Well if you are a carebear then in your case what will help you is stick to player driven content.
Join a guild that has actual pvpers and they will deal with people for you, you just gotta to befriend people like that and support their actions.

You can profit from it and stay away from stuff you don't like.

Players can clear or obstruct the path for you.

Arya_Yeshe

Craiken wrote: »

I would like Steven to give examples of green-player killing that he wants to see. What situations is he hoping will occur? Here are some examples. Which of these are healthy?

-Killing someone whenever they travel with a fully-loaded mule
-Killing someone for the opportunity to harvest a rare resource or fight a rare spawn
-Killing someone to prevent them from harvesting/grinding in your area
-Killing someone who is trying to obtain a siege scroll for your node
-Killing someone whenever they enter a dungeon you're farming
-Killing someone for roleplay reasons (e.g., hating orcs)
-Killing someone repeatedly to prevent them from leveling up a node that's competing with yours
-Killing someone repeatedly to reduce competition for housing in your area

A player could feel like the target of griefing even if their killer has no interest in generating an emotional response.

We know that any of those are NOT griefing, those are just simple kills.

What Steven has to wake up about is that he has no say in what goes on in the player's mind, how you roleplay and play your content is up to you, it's not Steven's business.

He is just a CEO and a developer, he is not the master of my inner experience as a player.

Arya_Yeshe

Strevi wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Griefing can exist.
There's only griefing in perfectly PVE games, example Minecraft servers where you can destroy other people's homes but can't do pvp

The solution can be working together with other people since it's a MMO, the same way other people can make your game harder they can make it easier.

The pvp game can also be badly designed where players find ways to act and the others cannot counter those actions by working together.

Yeah, when a game is that broken that leaves no counters then finally it's griefing and it's bad game design, it's the company's fault.

CROW3

Well, in Battlefield or Insurgency griefing is mainly from your own team - either teamkilling, following & colliding with a teammate, putting yourself in a position to be killed by a teammate (resulting in a server kick), blowing up / damaging a teammates’ vehicle, etc.

The only griefing that happens between combatants would be outright cheating (aimbots, wall hacks, etc) or excessive spawn camping.

Arya_Yeshe

CROW3 wrote: »

Well, in Battlefield or Insurgency griefing is mainly from your own team - either teamkilling, following & colliding with a teammate, putting yourself in a position to be killed by a teammate (resulting in a server kick), blowing up / damaging a teammates’ vehicle, etc.

The only griefing that happens between combatants would be outright cheating (aimbots, wall hacks, etc) or excessive spawn camping.

Exactly! When its working as intented it's fine.

The real griefing is when the system has certain rules which people can dance around and manipulate against you, or by using hacks.

Gankez

griefing is if you do anything i dont like to me.. plz ban..thnx

Ehrgeiz

With corruption and no losses beeing killed I really dont get why someone would be "griefed"?!

Dude just respawn and keep playing.

Iskiab

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

There is no griefing in PvP games? What nonsense are you guys spouting?

Things to avoid:
- being able to spawn camp
- being able to attack people while in a cut scene/speaking with quest givers

Biggest one is number 1. You have to make sure you can't lock someone down to keep them dead.

Things you avoid:
- being able to attack someone when they have no control of their character (cut scenes, quest givers, respawning, zoning).
- being able to attack into areas that are supposed to be safe (so no PvP within nodes, but you can shoot projectiles into nodes)
- having a locked respawn. A choice of where you respawn solves a lot of problems

Those are some off of the top of my head.

There is no griefing in PVP games, people have to stop whinning that's all!

If the other guy spawn camp you, kill him then spawn camp him.

People go play Street Fighter and they don't say they were griefed.
People go play Counter-Strike and get headshotted by the scout rifle and they don't say they are being griefed.

When there is full open PVP you get beat up a few times then get up and give back all the punishment, it's just this simple.

You're missing the point of the thread. No one says they're being griefed in street fighter and counter-stike because there are rules in place to avoid it.

For example you aren't allowed into the enemy respawn area. If someone is able to get into the enemy area, it is 100% considered exploiting and griefing the other players. You're confusing a game not having rules with a game that's designed to not allow it.

Arya_Yeshe

Iskiab wrote: »

You're missing the point of the thread. No one says they're being griefed in street fighter and counter-stike because there are rules in place to avoid it.

For example you aren't allowed into the enemy respawn area. If someone is able to get into the enemy area, it is 100% considered exploiting and griefing the other players.

Cheating, using exploits or hurting people while behind a wall of systems leaving no counters for the victims... then there's griefing.

In full blow PvP where everybody has counters at hand (even if it's just running away) then there's no griefing, there's fights only.

Dygz

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Well if you are a carebear then in your case what will help you is stick to player driven content.
Join a guild that has actual pvpers and they will deal with people for you, you just gotta to befriend people like that and support their actions.

You can profit from it and stay away from stuff you don't like.

Players can clear or obstruct the path for you.

Yes. This is a typical expectation for a PvP-centric game. I understand that.

Iskiab

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

With corruption and no losses beeing killed I really dont get why someone would be "griefed"?!

Dude just respawn and keep playing.

The OP was asking for systems to prevent griefing players. I think a lot of players haven't played games without those systems in place, so don't even see the need for this thread. They are wrong.

An example of possible oversights would be only being able to respawn at 1 location or not making respawn locations protected. In Age of Conan's release they weren't protected and you always respawned at the nearest respawn location.

It led to some hilarious (for us) situations where when you kill someone at the respawn point you could easily lock the person down. Irrc the one weak guard wasn't enough to discourage killing them again, plus there was a loading screen when someone respawned where you could kill them unbuffed before they could react.

There was even one story of someone being locked down for over a day because people took turns camping the respawn.

Anyways, back to my point - don't confuse only having played games with systems that don't allow griefing with griefing not being possible in PvP. It most definitely is.

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