Griefing a grinding spot

BlackBrony wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?

Best regards!

Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.

That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.

A duel? Why? I'm using all my tools to make you go away. Farming in your spot IS NOT griefing. It's not yours. That's the entitlement that comes from people that don't wanna PvP, or think they exist in the game as a sole entity.

I don't think you got my point... I want that kind of thing to be pvp related, meaning people fighting over things (or grouping over it), what I wanted to know is how the potential for someone come and "grief" a very good grind spot and what could the answer for that be.

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

...we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off...
... bullied into grouping, and that's just not right for someone who's trying to min max...
... there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it...

THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU!

The discussion, if content blocking/grindspot claiming is griefing, is as old as time. My take is, that you are the griefer, but lets just say, we agree to disagree. In the situation you bring, both would be punished by corruption on one side and death penalties on the other

Everything that is revealed about gameplay mechanics and what Steven says about his vision for the game, points at the direction, that AoC strongly discourages the MinMaxing gamestyle. There won't be MinMaxing farm routes for gatherers. There won't be the best dungeon for dungeon crawlers. There won't be the perfect quest route for leveling as fast as possible. It will change day by day and depends on where the other players are.

We don't know much about grindspots, but it's allready clear that killing one mob group over and over will lead to depletion and maybe migration.

I think, the most effective way to play, will be to group with some friends and find/agree on something, that is possible at the moment.

Well, I disagree, the game seems to be for me, I was just inquiring about a potential griefing situation (in my pov) and you come out with an all caps "this game is not for you" lmao.

Again, I just wanted to know what was what and if this kind of situation had been discussed in the past or what peoples thoughts on it were.

CROW3 wrote: »

SoL= wrote:

That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.

I have to agree with @Noaani and @BlackBrony, you don’t have a claim to any resources except for those in your bag. Everything else is negotiable or fought over.

I completely agree with your statement, contesting things is a good thing, however the pvp system punishes you if someone comes to the spot you are grinding and just grinds over your rotation disrupting it because you cant kill them over and over, your damage will be null at some point (according to their latest video on pvp).

Noaani wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?

Best regards!

Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.

That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.

I have literally never seen that happen.

Not in 20 years.

I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.

I think I might have not explained myself well, I want the pvp for spots, be it grinding or farming, what I want to know is how would it work if someone "griefs" you by coming back continuously just to disrupt your grinding. The corruption system wont allow you to kill them continuously. That was my whole "question".

Sorry if I wasn't clear or sounded entitled.

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Well, I disagree, the game seems to be for me, I was just inquiring about a potential griefing situation (in my pov) and you come out with an all caps "this game is not for you" lmao.

Again, I just wanted to know what was what and if this kind of situation had been discussed in the past or what peoples thoughts on it were.

Well... since you don't seem to have read anything, but the caps, maybe I should write everything in caps.

About your situation:
1. You can do something about it. You can kill him and take the risk of going red. You are still on the spot and start working of your corruption(will probably take a while). He will have death penalties, so coming back and contesting your mobs will be harder for him too, so his rewards diminish. It's a risk vs reward situation.

2. You are not entitled to anything, just because you are stronger then someone else.

3. There never was, or ever will be an etiquette like the one you are talking about. You are saying that there should be honor among thieves and there never wil be. It just always comes up, when someone doesn't get his way and thinks he is entitled to do/get something.

4. I didn't infer anything from your name,I read your statements. But you're right, should have written "fitting" instead of revealing.

5. Yes, I still think AoC will not be the game you are looking for. What you want(spot claiming/content locking in a way, where you are safe), will probably not be possible. It contradicts the risk vs reward structure.

I feel I have to repeat myself for you: The question you asked is answered and the situation you constructed is covered by the game mechanics.

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Well, I disagree, the game seems to be for me, I was just inquiring about a potential griefing situation (in my pov) and you come out with an all caps "this game is not for you" lmao.

Again, I just wanted to know what was what and if this kind of situation had been discussed in the past or what peoples thoughts on it were.

Well... since you don't seem to have read anything, but the caps, maybe I should write everything in caps.

About your situation:
1. You can do something about it. You can kill him and take the risk of going red. You are still on the spot and start working of your corruption(will probably take a while). He will have death penalties, so coming back and contesting your mobs will be harder for him too, so his rewards diminish. It's a risk vs reward situation.

2. You are not entitled to anything, just because you are stronger then someone else.

3. There never was, or ever will be an etiquette like the one you are talking about. You are saying that there should be honor among thieves and there never wil be. It just always comes up, when someone doesn't get his way and thinks he is entitled to do/get something.

4. I didn't infer anything from your name,I read your statements. But you're right, should have written "fitting" instead of revealing.

5. Yes, I still think AoC will not be the game you are looking for. What you want(spot claiming/content locking in a way, where you are safe), will probably not be possible. It contradicts the risk vs reward structure.

I feel I have to repeat myself for you: The question you asked is answered and the situation you constructed is covered by the game mechanics.

Thanks a bunch for your input!

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

3. There never was, or ever will be an etiquette like the one you are talking about. You are saying that there should be honor among thieves and there never wil be. It just always comes up, when someone doesn't get his way and thinks he is entitled to do/get something.

Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed. It was extremely poor form to infringe on someone's camp and would get you blacklisted. If you went to a dungeon and the spot you wanted was camped, you either went to a different camp, or asked the other group to let you know when they were leaving so you could take the camp you wanted. If you did the typical PvE griefer tactic of training a group to wipe them, that was a bannable offense. No one ever stated "it's not your spot, you don't own it!" until the casual carebears started playing MMO's once WoW came out (in my experience). People were nicer back then.

It's how I prefer to play as well since I've played a lot of EQ. Since the OP used BDO as an example and I also played that a fair amount. If I went to a spot, I'd just take the less efficient spot and PM the other person to let me know when they were done. If someone tried to infringe on my spot, I'd dec and pvp them off the spot.

I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot. The problem is that one kill makes you red is a terrible idea, and it's further exacerbated by the fact that if your Red and dude comes back green, you can't CC them, another terrible idea.

Calibix wrote: »

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

3. There never was, or ever will be an etiquette like the one you are talking about. You are saying that there should be honor among thieves and there never wil be. It just always comes up, when someone doesn't get his way and thinks he is entitled to do/get something.

Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed. It was extremely poor form to infringe on someone's camp and would get you blacklisted. If you went to a dungeon and the spot you wanted was camped, you either went to a different camp, or asked the other group to let you know when they were leaving so you could take the camp you wanted. If you did the typical PvE griefer tactic of training a group to wipe them, that was a bannable offense. No one ever stated "it's not your spot, you don't own it!" until the casual carebears started playing MMO's once WoW came out (in my experience). People were nicer back then.

It's how I prefer to play as well since I've played a lot of EQ. Since the OP used BDO as an example and I also played that a fair amount. If I went to a spot, I'd just take the less efficient spot and PM the other person to let me know when they were done. If someone tried to infringe on my spot, I'd dec and pvp them off the spot.

I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot. The problem is that one kill makes you red is a terrible idea, and it's further exacerbated by the fact that if your Red and dude comes back green, you can't CC them, another terrible idea.

Thanks for understanding my point and developing further on it, that's exactly what I meant.

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Calibix wrote: »

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

3. There never was, or ever will be an etiquette like the one you are talking about. You are saying that there should be honor among thieves and there never wil be. It just always comes up, when someone doesn't get his way and thinks he is entitled to do/get something.

Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed. It was extremely poor form to infringe on someone's camp and would get you blacklisted. If you went to a dungeon and the spot you wanted was camped, you either went to a different camp, or asked the other group to let you know when they were leaving so you could take the camp you wanted. If you did the typical PvE griefer tactic of training a group to wipe them, that was a bannable offense. No one ever stated "it's not your spot, you don't own it!" until the casual carebears started playing MMO's once WoW came out (in my experience). People were nicer back then.

It's how I prefer to play as well since I've played a lot of EQ. Since the OP used BDO as an example and I also played that a fair amount. If I went to a spot, I'd just take the less efficient spot and PM the other person to let me know when they were done. If someone tried to infringe on my spot, I'd dec and pvp them off the spot.

I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot. The problem is that one kill makes you red is a terrible idea, and it's further exacerbated by the fact that if your Red and dude comes back green, you can't CC them, another terrible idea.

Thanks for understanding my point and developing further on it, that's exactly what I meant.

Np, I spent a ton of time reading about AoC at some friends recommendations last week end and was getting really hyped until I found out how bad the green/purple/red system combined with corruption is going to be imo. It's literally the only thing from preventing me from buying into Alpha 2 at this point. Way too much catering to carebears when they have a million other games they could play. I just want an actual PvX sandbox to play in.

Calibix wrote: »

Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed.

Well...I think I'll take everything back then. Never played EQ. Aren't you contradicting yourself though, by stating that people were blacklisted and did train mobs? So there was an elite that decided who adhered to the rules and who didn't? What if I didn't belong to that group? 100%....really?

Calibix wrote: »

It's how I prefer to play as well since I've played a lot of EQ

I don't want to take that away from you.

Calibix wrote: »

I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot.

This is where i disagree and where I think, that what we know about the game mechanics so far, does not support the way you want to play the game.
Not just in the spot claiming scenario, but in much broader terms like spot grinding, minmaxing, "bullied" into grouping, content blocking and even PvP mechanics in general.

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Calibix wrote: »

Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed.

Well...I think I'll take everything back then. Never played EQ. Aren't you contradicting yourself though, by stating that people were blacklisted and did train mobs? So there was an elite that decided who adhered to the rules and who didn't? What if I didn't belong to that group? 100%....really?

Calibix wrote: »

It's how I prefer to play as well since I've played a lot of EQ

I don't want to take that away from you.

Calibix wrote: »

I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot.

This is where i disagree and where I think, that what we know about the game mechanics so far, does not support the way you want to play the game.
Not just in the spot claiming scenario, but in much broader terms like spot grinding, minmaxing, "bullied" into grouping, content blocking and even PvP mechanics in general.

I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I said 100% because EQ did in fact have the etiquette you said didn't exist. I didn't say 100% of people adhered to it, it was considered common etiquette, there was no elitism about it. You could pve grief in other ways, such as dispelling an enchanter's charm, ninja pulling nameds out of a camp, etc.

And your right, if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse, then yeah its probably not a game I really want to play. There's plenty of games like that already. Which is why I went on in my next post to point out why I haven't bought into Alpha 2 yet. The green/purple/red system combined with corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red, let alone going deep red, which then in turn limits the Bounty Hunter system because there won't be many bounties.

I'm also not advocating for a murder-box either. I just think that a PvX sandbox should allow for a decent amount of OWPvP before the harsh penalties come into play. I don't gank lowbies, I don't spawn camp lowbies, that's not enjoyable to me. If some dbag was ganking/camping lowbies, that's the type of person I'd like to kill repeatedly. More often than not I let people play but if the opportunity arises for me to kill someone that benefits me, I want to be able to take it without then being hamstrung from a single act. If I do it too much then sure there should be repercussions.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point? Are you saying that you don't want grind spots to be contested? Isn't that the point of it being OW and not instanced? The whole risk v reward thing? I love the idea of camping a very lucrative area with a group and having to potentially defend it against others that want that spot as well. You might disagree, but it doesn't make either of our ideas invalid, this is a forum for feedback after all. As I said, there are plenty of games that play the way you want already, I'd like for one to play the way I want which AoC could be, but I don't see it happening with the current iteration of the system on paper.

Arya_Yeshe

In general we can't be sure if it's griefing if the player is using all game mechanics correctly and the systems are working correctly, you don't know the reasons why a player is doing something.

He could be just experiencing the game and learning stuff.

Calibix wrote: »

...it was considered common etiquette...

We won't get to the bottom of that, because it touches on what etiquette and unspoken moral rules are and how they are agreed upon. Let's just say, I'm happy, that your experiences were good. I had other experiences and only heard those etiquette arguments, when someone didn't get his way(no...etiquette is 2 out of 3....no i wasn't ready....etc). The specifics of the etiquette were always very situation specific and my fellow guildies, who quoted it the most, were often the biggest griefers themselfs. So I've heard it since I started playing myself(it always existed), but the rules were always very subjective(so it never existed).

Calibix wrote: »

... if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse...corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red

No, the green player gets debuffed too and that's wanted. If it works, there would be no point for a PvEer to go back and die again, because even if you left, he couldn't take over the spot(bbecause of debuffs). Working as intended(hopefully). I'm sharing your concern about the bounty hunter system. We'll see.

Calibix wrote: »

...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point?

Yep. Let me try to explain. We are talking about grindspots, rotations and minmaxing. If you read into, what is known about the game mechanics and Stevens vision for the game, you'll see, that all that is irrelevant. The world is meant to be dynamic and always changing. It won't be efficiant to grind a mobcamp on respawn because they might vanish alltogether. So things, like taking over/contesting a rotation from someone who finished is stupid, because he already devalued the spot. The spot that was perfect for you yesterday might be too high today, because the node leveled up. It might be gone, because the node was destroyed.
I think Steven doesn't want the minmaxing, best-grindspot approach for AoC. He also doesn't want owPvP to be about spot contesting/PvE griefing/griefing. There will be plenty of mechanics(sieges/wars/caravans) that allow you to PvP wîthout corruption and plenty of reasons to owPvP(node wars/economic wars/preventing neighours to grow etc.). There will be no reason to defend your spot and going red for it and no reoson to accrue death penalties, by dying someone out of it.
Well....there's always a reason, I guess. That's why you're allowed to do it, if you take the risk of going red.

Depraved

BlackBrony wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?

Best regards!

Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.

yeah but if there are more spots, why do they have to come to where you are?

Why does that apply to the late comer and not you that are there from the start? If there are other spots why don't YOU leave?

you are arguing for the sake of arguing. but ok ill play along.

lets say im farming in area, alone, theres 5 spots and they al have the same mobs. 1 is occupied by me and the other 4 are empty. some dude comes to the area and start killing mobs where i am killing them. ill leave and go to one of the other spots, then he follows me and starts killing in the new spot as well. then i leave again and he follows me and repeats. isnt that griefing?

Frostywombat

I think it may be tuneable so killing players of the same level doesn’t effect your corruption to much but we will have to see how it’s implemented. The no cc on green players would be a bit annoying but as you get the first hit maybe ok and can see how it prevents some annoying cc of tanks etc.

The main question is should u be able to stake a claim on a spot and enforce your claim by force. I would say yes as conflict enhances my experience mainly because I in my experience it encourages the safety in numbers mentally rather than relying on group xp bonuses.

You do end up will play sessions where you essentially have no progress because of the contesting and/or inability to get a decent group together which is what I think turns people of the always on pvp type of server/game. As I tend to play group pvp type activities a lot at max level the idea of having my lvling progress stopped by pvp really doesn’t bother me.

I think all everyone wants is a PvX game where things can be contested.

Steven spoke a lot about risk vs reward, and I like that, but what is the risk for someone that is just passively griefing someone else without getting involved in PvP? The reward may very well be just annoying the other person, and even if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.

Kubitz2 wrote: »

Calibix wrote: »

...it was considered common etiquette...

We won't get to the bottom of that, because it touches on what etiquette and unspoken moral rules are and how they are agreed upon. Let's just say, I'm happy, that your experiences were good. I had other experiences and only heard those etiquette arguments, when someone didn't get his way(no...etiquette is 2 out of 3....no i wasn't ready....etc). The specifics of the etiquette were always very situation specific and my fellow guildies, who quoted it the most, were often the biggest griefers themselfs. So I've heard it since I started playing myself(it always existed), but the rules were always very subjective(so it never existed).

Calibix wrote: »

... if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse...corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red

No, the green player gets debuffed too and that's wanted. If it works, there would be no point for a PvEer to go back and die again, because even if you left, he couldn't take over the spot(bbecause of debuffs). Working as intended(hopefully). I'm sharing your concern about the bounty hunter system. We'll see.

Calibix wrote: »

...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point?

Yep. Let me try to explain. We are talking about grindspots, rotations and minmaxing. If you read into, what is known about the game mechanics and Stevens vision for the game, you'll see, that all that is irrelevant. The world is meant to be dynamic and always changing. It won't be efficiant to grind a mobcamp on respawn because they might vanish alltogether. So things, like taking over/contesting a rotation from someone who finished is stupid, because he already devalued the spot. The spot that was perfect for you yesterday might be too high today, because the node leveled up. It might be gone, because the node was destroyed.
I think Steven doesn't want the minmaxing, best-grindspot approach for AoC. He also doesn't want owPvP to be about spot contesting/PvE griefing/griefing. There will be plenty of mechanics(sieges/wars/caravans) that allow you to PvP wîthout corruption and plenty of reasons to owPvP(node wars/economic wars/preventing neighours to grow etc.). There will be no reason to defend your spot and going red for it and no reoson to accrue death penalties, by dying someone out of it.
Well....there's always a reason, I guess. That's why your allowed to do it, if you take the risk of going red.

1) I think that's semantics at that point, but I will just say as I said it was common etiquette. No one disputed it. People who didn't extend that courtesy were ostracized. /shrug

2) What are the penalties a green player gets? Obviously any dropped loot (from what I read from Alpha 1 players, was insignificant), but I haven't read about any debuffs a green player would receive? Just a generic death penalty?

3) Interesting, I have not read about this. Could you provide a link? That could certainly change things, but I'm curious how they could implement this. Sounds cool. I enjoyed Lower Guk (very good group dungeon Kunark-era EQ), but spending everyday there could get old. Regardless of the "dynamic" system, people will find "the best" spot and competition will ensue. In a group, the system is a lot more manageable since you could try to spread out the KB's, but in a solo situation there doesn't seem to be much recourse.

I don't disagree there are plenty of opportunities for PvP corruption free and that's great. But if Steven doesn't want OwPvP to be about contesting things, then what is it supposed to be about? My concern is if it's not in those areas, the penalties are so harsh that no almost one will do it which at that point why have it at all, and again, it then invalidates the BH system.

4)I think most of my concerns would be alleviated by red not being a thing until a certain threshold, similar to old school UO. You didn't go red until you had a certain amount of kills in a certain amount of time, and you didn't have an exact idea of where you were so you had to take the risk if you wanted that kill or not. Or you just didn't care and went red with everything that went with it. That makes a lot more sense to me, prevents a lot of griefing both pvp/pve, and makes it easily adjustable by tweaking numbers. My 2cp.

Calibix wrote: »

What are the penalties a green player gets?

A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[6]

Experience debt (negative experience).[9]
Skill and stat dampening.[6]
Lower health and mana.[6]
Lower gear proficiency.[6]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[10]
Durability loss.[11][12][6]

Calibix wrote: »

Interesting, I have not read about this. Could you provide a link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyXMxhUK_p8

At 14:40 they start talking about the land health management and that everything players do in a region has a systemic impact on the region. If he talks about player agency he always explains it as the systemic impact a players actions have on his environments. He hasn't explicitely said anything on let us say a centaur village yet, but I strongly expect that grindspots aren't the only thing that is excempt from these changes.

Calibix wrote: »

But if Steven doesn't want OwPvP to be about contesting things, then what is it supposed to be about?

Steven calls it soft friction. It is not as much about what is mine and what is yours, but more about what are your guild's/node mayor's goals. Hard to explain without quoting the whole wiki.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
It's the whole risk vs reward calculation. Is it worth invading the neighbouring node and, if as a reward your node levels faster? You risk going red, but it might be worth or the better perks of your node. The stronger and bigger the raid party is, the safer. The whole solo player part of owPvP is discouraged, group actions are incentivized(for example by mayor quests). But it might still be a nice and fast profit if you can kill a gatherer and his mule and get away with it.

Isn't it sad, that there is such a strong mold of how owPvP and PvP focused games have to be, that everybody thinks he knows exactly what is meant. I don't think many have realized that PvX means "not a PvEer game" AND "not a PvPer game".

Frostywombat

Sorrowbringer wrote: »

if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.

I admit the system is still very much open to abuse by someone just following you around getting in your way, but could be some tuning that would limit it and allow you some control by force.

If the passive griefer gets killed a few times they could potentially get xp loses as well. If the corruption negatives from killing a same level player a few times is low enough in comparison.

We also havnt seen the respawn distance/system. If they respawn some distance away and that allows you to grind of your corruption before they can make it back then that could work.

If you end up having to keep on killing lots of different players to keep your spot clear then time to probably give up and live with them for a while at least.