Just make a lv5 PK char with lv1 gear

And kill all those pesky Lv1 super gatherers.

Many months ago, somebody though that the Devs would let people bypass character progress, open world pvp and risk vs reward, said (without thinking too much, but wanting to appear intelligent) "since combat progression and artisan progression aren't the same people will have Lv1 master gatherers/crafters". They wouldn't admit to the fact that that's ridiculous. Oh well.

Today you heard it. How did you even expected to progress a Lv1 char, in a dangerous open world, by just focusing on artisanship, ignoring potential combat? How? It wont happen.
And even if it does and people start carrying around treasures with low lv chars, just make a low lv low item PK char and take all their stuff and watch them say "the corruption system didn't work when I tried to bypass it"

And as you heard in todays live stream, "be informed. Watch. Read". And then think.

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Arya_Yeshe

Goalid wrote: »

I can see this being a response to killing low leveled alts if you've prepared for it. But, it's still a huge problem that you're going to have to get several PKs and extremely large amounts of corruption to prevent gathering griefing.

In last week's video the devs said something about node policies that will prevent harvesting griefers

So it's fine, probably we won't have to gank people and there will be more ways of dealing with a green horde

Tearl Stoneheart

@Arya_Yeshe Out of curiosity, where's the line in PvE players where they become carebear (you've used that term a lot)? I ask, because some of us like PvE as well as PvP. I will partake in many PvP events (caravans, sieges, wars, etc.) but will likely leave folks alone who are just out adventuring without pestering me. I would like to enjoy gathering or adventuring from a PvE perspective as well. Is that carebear?

Goalid

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Goalid wrote: »

I can see this being a response to killing low leveled alts if you've prepared for it. But, it's still a huge problem that you're going to have to get several PKs and extremely large amounts of corruption to prevent gathering griefing.

In last week's video the devs said something about node policies that will prevent harvesting griefers

So it's fine, probably we won't have to gank people and there will be more ways of dealing with a green horde

That's what I hope for

novercalis

you recently learned a group of players with a lvl 1 alt leaving a dungeon with some epic loot.

1) you need to have a lvl 5 character

2) you somehow need to now transport that lvl 5 character to location

3) you have enough man power to beat them up to begin with.

1) easy to do
2) by the time you logged into your alt and got there, they are gone.
3) in the event they arent gone, do you have the man power - by the time you got your guildies organized - they are gone.

the logistic of having a lvl 5 rdy to move and be there on time is low & most ppl wont bother.

2) for all we know - AOC can go the NW route by not allowing ALTS into the same server. You may have multiple characters but not in the same server. Which brings me to another point

3) most players arent gonna have multiple accounts, pay multiple accounts, so they can have multiple toons in the same server.

George_Black

novercalis wrote: »

you recently learned a group of players with a lvl 1 alt leaving a dungeon with some epic loot.

1) you need to have a lvl 5 character

2) you somehow need to now transport that lvl 5 character to location

3) you have enough man power to beat them up to begin with.

1) easy to do
2) by the time you logged into your alt and got there, they are gone.
3) in the event they arent gone, do you have the man power - by the time you got your guildies organized - they are gone.

the logistic of having a lvl 5 rdy to move and be there on time is low & most ppl wont bother.

2) for all we know - AOC can go the NW route by not allowing ALTS into the same server. You may have multiple characters but not in the same server. Which brings me to another point

3) most players arent gonna have multiple accounts, pay multiple accounts, so they can have multiple toons in the same server.

What? How is that going to be a problem?
Organized ppl will have a designated person in every session to log in the Lv5 riches maker. It's just another role. Some days you find a victim some days you dont.
Besides didnt you hear Steven? There wont be such a thing as a Lv1 super duper artisan, bypassing the open world dangers. How did you ever expect them to be was beyond me.

Dont try to poke holes again.... stop doing that, you dont have what it takes...

Arya_Yeshe

Tearl Stoneheart wrote: »

@Arya_Yeshe Out of curiosity, where's the line in PvE players where they become carebear (you've used that term a lot)? I ask, because some of us like PvE as well as PvP. I will partake in many PvP events (caravans, sieges, wars, etc.) but will likely leave folks alone who are just out adventuring without pestering me. I would like to enjoy gathering or adventuring from a PvE perspective as well. Is that carebear?

The carebear is the guy who wants to do his pve while having a safety net of ingame mechanics and systems, he can't stand being challenged ingame and if anyone stops him from doing his farming then he says it's griefing

everything is griefing for carebears and carebears are ingame hoarders, they can't stand losing a copper

but as a joke in the end of the day we say all pve is carebearing, even if a pirate chops wood he will say:
-I'm doing some carebear s### today!

VekoKrava

Smork wrote: »

I like all these nuances to how people will navigate the world to their benefit and also how others will try stop that.

I think about Classic WoW with world buffs and how people would coordinate getting the flower buff in felwood with summons / invis pots ect, it had such a high risk but was awesome if you achieved it.

And on the other side it was awesome seeing gankers at the right time kill groups of people trying to get the buff, it always gave the world a risk feeling if you were to try adventure out to it.

People don't understand that, it is like living in the eastern EU and living in west EU. It may variate from person to person, but at least in my country people are more humble, but often criticize others, where in west people are more tolerant and have bigger desires because they have availability for thus are more ''happy'' positive, but search for comfort because they can.

They cannot understand why someone would choose to play Skyrim in harder mode with starvation just because they want to experience game without some restrictions, again it depends from person to person, but that's my point. They see everything as risk / hard / restriction as bad or not convenient for them thus will not understand our (old-school) ideology of RPG games.

Last thing I want to say, there is one universal truth to RPG games and that is to immerse yourself in fantasy world. That is the whole point of this genre, same as some movies have different genres to serve their purpose. - You cannot immerse yourself without risk vs reward, or sandbox design that gives you opportunity to play how you want to play. Sandbox can be seen in crafting like vanilla WoW crafting where you could craft item on 35lvl and still serve you on end game (60lvl), it utilizes old zones better and creates world full of players everywhere. (example: Vanilla wow potions that used to be made in 30ish level zones, or gear for tailoring that was being made on 35-45 level and not be replaced until raids, etc...)

Those players that like theme park MMOs will search for convenience because they don't care about tradition of RPG games nor they do care about immersion, or if they do, they search it in other ways that are less punishing because their ideology revolves around not wasting time, being the most productive etc... Which can tell me few things about that person, I cannot simply tell how I can predict if that person has some elements that I think of, just because I cannot generalize people and I will be called wrong.

SirChancelot

It kinda looks like if you wanted you could make an artisan character and never leave a metropolis.

Just do the refining and crafting, then use your proceeds to get more mats to make more...
You level your crafting and never leave town.

George_Black

SirChancelot wrote: »

It kinda looks like if you wanted you could make an artisan character and never leave a metropolis.

Just do the refining and crafting, then use your proceeds to get more mats to make more...
You level your crafting and never leave town.

Keep dreaming.

Noaani

SirChancelot wrote: »

It kinda looks like if you wanted you could make an artisan character and never leave a metropolis.

Just do the refining and crafting, then use your proceeds to get more mats to make more...
You level your crafting and never leave town.

I mean, this is viable in every game I have ever played. I see no reason it wont be viable in Ashes.

George_Black

Ye... because your Lv1 low produce will bring you so much gold that you can set yourself up without even killing a single mob, or assisting other players with gathering.

Ye.. everybody will want to give this Lv1 char all the stuff they need to start leveling their artisan class.
Eveeybody will have a need for the earliest produce of this Lv1 artisan, these expensive low grade crafts, making that char wealthy.

People will just come and say "hey you are a low lv crafter that doesnt produce anything useful yet. How would you like this useful recipe for free, to get you started? I know you got no money because you cant sell any of those lame Lv1 crafts, so here, take it for free. Me and my friends were killing mobs to find it or questing, fighting in pvp, but since you dont want to leave your node, here, take it." Steven even spelt it out for you.

Keep dreaming I say.

Spif

Noaani wrote: »

SirChancelot wrote: »

It kinda looks like if you wanted you could make an artisan character and never leave a metropolis.

Just do the refining and crafting, then use your proceeds to get more mats to make more...
You level your crafting and never leave town.

I mean, this is viable in every game I have ever played. I see no reason it wont be viable in Ashes.

Plenty of games have level reqs for crafting, or at least level reqs for using the top end crafting tools or ingredients. Although some games give combat xp for leveling up crafting, it doesn't look like that will be the case in AoC.

Aside from what other games do, I don't think AoC will allow L1 master crafters because that make it too easy to gather on the main, and have a L1 refining and crafting alt that they feed materials to.

BoP items (recipes and boss dropped mats) may be another way to make the L1 not viable.

George_Black

No need for BoP just because of this silly conversation. Plenty of games allow for artisans to avoid stepping out of the city, because those games give trophies to everybody. 0 risk, only "reward".

That wont be the case in AoC. I can understand a guild member being the designated artisan and pretty much having people handing everything to that crafter, but to pretend that people can avoid either PvE (with the owpvp danger) and any form of cooperation, and expect to become rich artisans locked inside their ivory towers is stupid. Simple brains heard "class progression wont be related to artisan profession" and started all these weird scenarios. That's what they put together in their heads. I ask, how could you ever believe that, when the devs have said many times that all systems are interlinked for a healthy social open world mmo? How did people went deaf to "risk vs reward" and started saying crap like Lv1 master gatherers and Lv1 master crafters?

Gandalfthegrape

George_Black wrote: »

And kill all those pesky Lv1 super gatherers.

Many months ago, somebody though that the Devs would let people bypass character progress, open world pvp and risk vs reward, said (without thinking too much, but wanting to appear intelligent) "since combat progression and artisan progression aren't the same people will have Lv1 master gatherers/crafters". They wouldn't admit to the fact that that's ridiculous. Oh well.

Today you heard it. How did you even expected to progress a Lv1 char, in a dangerous open world, by just focusing on artisanship, ignoring potential combat? How? It wont happen.
And even if it does and people start carrying around treasures with low lv chars, just make a low lv low item PK char and take all their stuff and watch them say "the corruption system didn't work when I tried to bypass it"

And as you heard in todays live stream, "be informed. Watch. Read". And then think.

Id guess the same way as any other game. You need to be level 10 to get copper, level 20 to get iron, level 30 for gold, level 40 for steel, 50 for mithril etc. If you only want to farm copper go for it but you're wasting your time the market will already be flooded. I highly doubt you'll crack that rock open level 1 and get the best ore in the game. That doesn't sound like any system I have ever seen before.

Noaani

Spif wrote: »

Plenty of games have level reqs for crafting, or at least level reqs for using the top end crafting tools or ingredients.

Oh for sure. I didnt say no games have it, just that games I have played dont.

I tend to avoid games with shit design, and forcing players to level up in combat when they just want to craft is bad game design, just as forcing players to craft if they just want to go out and fight.

daveywavey

Crafting itself will be a way of levelling up. If you're doing nothing but crafting, then you won't stay Level 1 for long.

"Leveling won't follow a traditional linear path, although classic mechanics for leveling exist.[2][3]

Experience (XP) is gained through a variety of vertical and horizontal progression paths, such as PvP, PvE, Exploration, Gathering/Processing/Crafting, Events/Quests, Grinding mobs"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling

So, if you have enough guildies who are happy to funnel you the mats you need, then yeah, I can see an instance, albeit likely a rare one, where someone could spend all their time crafting and never leave the city.

daveywavey

daveywavey wrote: »

Crafting itself will be a way of levelling up. If you're doing nothing but crafting, then you won't stay Level 1 for long.

"Leveling won't follow a traditional linear path, although classic mechanics for leveling exist.[2][3]

Experience (XP) is gained through a variety of vertical and horizontal progression paths, such as PvP, PvE, Exploration, Gathering/Processing/Crafting, Events/Quests, Grinding mobs"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Leveling

So, if you have enough guildies who are happy to funnel you the mats you need, then yeah, I can see an instance, albeit likely a rare one, where someone could spend all their time crafting and never leave the city.

Similarly, given that Gathering itself provides XP, the idea of a permanently Level 1 Gatherer seems unlikely.

SirChancelot

George_Black wrote: »

Ye... because your Lv1 low produce will bring you so much gold that you can set yourself up without even killing a single mob, or assisting other players with gathering.

Ye.. everybody will want to give this Lv1 char all the stuff they need to start leveling their artisan class.
Eveeybody will have a need for the earliest produce of this Lv1 artisan, these expensive low grade crafts, making that char wealthy.

People will just come and say "hey you are a low lv crafter that doesnt produce anything useful yet. How would you like this useful recipe for free, to get you started? I know you got no money because you cant sell any of those lame Lv1 crafts, so here, take it for free. Me and my friends were killing mobs to find it or questing, fighting in pvp, but since you dont want to leave your node, here, take it." Steven even spelt it out for you.

Keep dreaming I say.

Ok, with a 10 gold loan to get started from a bank
😜

Or hear me out a lv 2 crafter character.
Left town for one initial quest and mat run... And then never leaves town

I 100% think it would be feasible to get a Max level crafting with the less than level 5character

paha

I do not believe free pvp will work outside relatively smaller margine of vast global playerbase.

Here is my reasoning. The systems place a base value on the game, value on things you have. But if you indeed do not care, or just accept the losses, then that is no longer a penalty. No matter if it's small percentage of the pvp / free world oriented people, if there are some of those that simply enjoy ganking someone few times, or once in a blue moon think it'll be fun to kill someone and just make them suffer a bit, that is forcing outcome to someone that may not be able to avoid it. Alright, if victims and others hunt down person that's been marked to lose a lot, then they win something for it, so there is incentive to put hurt back onto a bad actor? Sure, unless they just choose to roll with nothing of real value? Even if they are not coming out mechanically strong, they can still ruin someones experience or keep messing with them in many ways, and what is there to gain or what are the means to permanently stop this person past certain point?

Now is all of this part of the game? Yes, it can be. And one should accept that if it will be. However, the balance of that transaction becomes imbalanced if the other party has nothing to lose in their mind. If they are alright with all the losses and go at it without regard for it, just to ruin someones time, then it's only a matter of time until someone looks around and if they find something else they can guarantee enjoyment in, with the limited time they may have, then they likely will choose that. Fair enough. Carebear attitude, sure. I mean, what does it matter what you want to call it. This is not a matter to get angry about but recognize some facts. In customer service, in business, bad rumors, bad reviews, bad-anything spreads far wider than anything positive. Is there any game in this genre that is as big as the "pve carebear" options ? Has any of them lasted as long as the respective options? I am genuinely asking because right now I can't think of one. Could this be the one that does it and makes it, with open pvp? Yes, maybe. I really don't know. And just because it has not really happened before, does not mean it should not be tried or that it cannot happen.

It is still more than likely that few bad actors will slowly eat away and chase away more than their own weight of people. Folks that tend to do pve are around even when tired and just gathering, just enjoying some social aspects of the game, but they are around, and if they enjoy it, generally longterm. PvP oriented folks may end up being more hardcore. They are active when they are in it. And if there's nothing to do, they search other games or other things, often at least. Again, people are unique, so everyone is different, but there's generally bit of a pattern that emerges with the type of people and their use of time.

If everything is open for pvp, it will fully depend on how things go, and that can only be seen when we play the game, but yeah. More than likely, eventually most people will choose more pve oriented approach and choose to do pvp in organized activity and by choice. Same happened to wow in big parts with time. And mostly those left longterm in pvp realms and such ended up mostly ignoring each other in open world, outside someone thinking it was fun to gank random guy for a while. Perfect example of the worst actor, again. The only goal is to tackle someone else for a while. It's not even about skill or specific goal or incentive, other than tackling another person and show superiority, by taking success away from them.

I can't put everything I think in words, not properly or articulate all of the nuances and thoughts I have. Shortly, I do not believe full, open pvp would carry longterm in large scale. Now, it could in some scale. Just depends what kind base the game is after. I believe though that at worst it's at a scale where the people left around, may find it slowly becoming dull because they are mostly left with only their peers, and the competition is at such level that if they can't achieve sense of success or victory in the sense they would by having more chances at open world to surprise a weaker victim - they will eventually quit. They will go for different kind pvp oriented game, competitive games or others that exist always as they are. But with mmo, there's so much more to them as games than pvp. The world won't take much away from pvp, but pvp can take away from the experience in the world. It can take everything away from that experience, and it's unlikely that all of that can take everything away from pvp, even if it was not fully open world and had more limited areas or opt-in activities.

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