Calibix wrote: » @Azherae I did not play FFXI so while I concede that the encounter your describing (the meter thing) is not a static exact same every time encounter like most raids, its still a script to me. It doesn't have the possibility to change tactics from fight to fight because its still programmed to do its thing. Its simply using a skill at less predictable intervals. Your example from my understanding would easily be solved by just setting up a stun order and rotating through it as the attack comes out. Easily accomplished by competent raiders. Correct me if I'm wrong. It does however more closely resemble the dynamics of pvp in sense. You would have to choose to use your stun skill for the damage, or risk it not being up when you need it on your turn, instead of blindly following a rotation. For a pvp analogy, imagine a 5v5 skirmish in the open world. Most often, the groups are going to focus each other's healers. But sometimes, the other group is very good at peeling, or the healer is very tanky. So this tactic may not work and you lose. So you fight again, but instead you cc the healer and blow up a squishy to get a numbers advantage and let attrition set in and win. Or maybe you try to play defensively and bait someone into over-extending to get a quick kill or at least make the healer blow his big cooldowns, thus letting you secure a kill on the healer or a squishy. Or maybe you feint a charge to bait out cooldowns. Or maybe the healer makes a mistake and loses LoS because he ran behind a rock, so you capitalize elsewhere. The point is, your group is making tactical decisions in real time to counter the other group, while they should simultaneously being doing to the same to you. You might have a plan, but it's not scripted because any number of things could happen that require the plans to change. That is dynamic content to me. In a PvX game, which is what I hope AoC is going to be, encounters like you describe and encounters like I described will be occurring concurrently, and that sounds fun as hell to me. Imagine a boss like you described that's being contested, and your group decides instead of countering the mega death move, you have your tank turn it into the other group and let it rip. That would be the type of gaming moment I would never forget.
Calibix wrote: » Your really over thinking this. The raid boss can't change it's tactics in real time from fight to fight. It can't even change its tactics mid fight. It's not AI. Humans can. The humans are dynamic. If raid bosses were AI, you'd have a point. If I'm playing chess against a computer, it has difficulties levels that are guess what, static. You don't play at medium difficulty and the computer gets better over time. It gets better when you turn the difficulty up. It is not Google's DeepMind. That is literally my point, PVE encounters are by definition static because they can only operate within what they are programmed to do. The raid boss isn't coming out to fight you when half your group isn't there. It doesn't magically learn new abilities, or find a way to target bigger threats than the tank unless it was programmed to do so. Its not learning or doing something new. Its just doing the same things at different intervals. You claim I'm being tautological: here's the definition of dynamic (#3) for you: And here is Variable (#1): I am not being tautological. I keep explaining why PVE is static. You are just failing to understand why variable and dynamic are different. Back to the encounter you described, that's easily fixed by having the next person in the list use their stun. Maybe you should make a thread explaining it because you seem to think its this god tier encounter or something, but I bet thousands of average gamers have cleared it so that would likely indicate it isn't. And again, this is a variable not dynamic encounter. Did either of the mobs ever do anything beside what's listed on their wiki? We both know the answer is no. Look if you want to be done with me fine, that's on you. I for one can enjoy and possibly learn from a conversation with someone with a dissenting opinion. If you can't that's on you. Most people don't like to admit they're wrong so yeah I get why you wouldn't want to continue.
Calibix wrote: » I have world firsted raid content, and server firsted much more. There is nothing dynamic about it. It is simple trial and error, and then execution once you know the strat.
akabear wrote: » So are you arguing it is or is not a PvX game?
Arya_Yeshe wrote: » Well, I wonder how much gear based will be AoC's PvP, hopefully not greatly like in WoW... because in WoW oh boy if you don't have the armor just forget about trying to kill someone with a better armor than you, if the guy doesn't commit a mistake then you are dead If AoC's PvP is a somewhat dependant on gear, then PvPers will have to do some grind for gear or buy gear if the gear isn't account bound. If that is the case then PvPers will have to be more PvX so they get better stuff if it's account bound or soul bound
Azherae wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Beyolf wrote: » If you already done the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter and what to expect from it so there is no surprise at all which means that after you know the mechanics it all comes down to their proper execution, and here for me is the difference between a hard engaging PvE and a bad one. If the execution of the mechanics is tight it will be fun and engaging experience, if not then after the first clear it just becomes a chore. In PvP there much more stuff which need to be learned, first what are the classes and what are their strengths weakness, after that what are the synergies between this classes and the different compositions, what are the combat mechanics and how they work, after you learn all that ofcourse the valuable options are not countless they are limited but still the execution of the mechanics is more challenging and its much harder to be proactive in pvp while in PvE its very easy when you learn the mechanics because they dont change and they happen at very easy to predict times, while in PvP thats not the case even when you know all of the mechanics its much harder to predict what exactly will happen. Also you talk about large scale PvP, there is no MMO with good large scale pvp because its really hard to balance the game around it. If the game is balanced around large scale pvp then in small scale pvp nobody will be able to kill nobody, so thats the reason why large scale PvP is not that challenging also in large scale pvp your individual skill contribute very small portion in the equation which predicts the outcome of the fight. So if you compare Raids to just large scale PvP i understand why you find PvP easier, but this modes are fundamentally different in design, Raids in the modern age are designed in a way that even if 1 person fails a curtail mechanics the whole raid fails, while in Large scale PvP thats not the case and if 1 person dies he comes back into the fight shortly, thats why its much more appropriate to compare Raid to PvP mode in which individual skill matters much more as for example 3v3 or 5v5 mode and in this case pvp is much more unpredictable and harder than PvE raid even if you know perfectly what all the enemy classes can do and what their composition can do. Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly. Ofcourse all of that depend on the combat mechanics of the game too but generally speaking PvE is much more predictable therefore much easier than PvP. Anyways i think we are a bit offtopic Most of this doesn't match my experience. "If you already did the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter" - not in the games I play. "In PvP there is much more stuff that needs to be learned." - Also not true. I would elaborate here but I usually get the 'Fighting Games aren't MMOs' response, which is correct because MMOs are almost always less complicated. "Execution of the mechanics is more challenging" - nope. "Raids in the modern age" - Assume that if I am talking, and I BET that when Noaani is talking, this isn't what is being talked about. "Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly." - I once again feel sorrow at the state of the genre if this is the experience of most players. I will continue to hope that Ashes can live up to the standards of the MMOs of Yore so that people can have an experience beyond this.Bonus for NiKr so this post isn't just counterpoints. I remember when I created a thread for what people expect in raids and people didn't really respond to it much. If you have certain expectations of difficulty it's better to push that kind of thread with examples and such as good feedback. If it is old mmorpgs people don't play, were not mainstream, etc it's going to be hard to expect that type of content in anyway without fully expressing it enough and what you desire as a player for content and difficulty. Part of the problem with that thread, as I remember it, is that you literally don't believe that the things we tell you about the PvE we have experienced are possible. Or you think they're bad design. So you kinda automatically disqualify all the content we consider interesting. As for 'expressing it', I think that would be a bad idea here kind of. I want Ashes to succeed. Ashes is based on AA and L2 and might be losing any FFXI/EQ influence it has, as we move forward. If the game system doesn't suit the type of encounters I am talking about, they should not make them. If it does, I am so confident that they are ALREADY making them, that the only reason I even try to explain anything to anyone else is because I am sad that y'all don't know 'what is coming'. I'm sure you will adapt, it's not going to be some 'mind-blowing wake-up call' if you have to face the type of content I'm used to. It might be jarring at first to 'randomly die because you thought it was scripted' or you weren't prepared for something you've never seen the boss do before, but that's part of the fun. So I don't really feel the need to express it. If Ashes doesn't intend to have this PvE type, they probably did extensive analysis on why their game won't work if they have it. If they DO intend to have it, then all I can do is help you understand that it exists so you can give feedback on how you feel about it. All I hope is that either TL or Ashes has it, and given the other decisions on Ashes side, for my selfish perspective I have to hope it is TL. Ashes should do whatever Steven enjoys.
Mag7spy wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Beyolf wrote: » If you already done the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter and what to expect from it so there is no surprise at all which means that after you know the mechanics it all comes down to their proper execution, and here for me is the difference between a hard engaging PvE and a bad one. If the execution of the mechanics is tight it will be fun and engaging experience, if not then after the first clear it just becomes a chore. In PvP there much more stuff which need to be learned, first what are the classes and what are their strengths weakness, after that what are the synergies between this classes and the different compositions, what are the combat mechanics and how they work, after you learn all that ofcourse the valuable options are not countless they are limited but still the execution of the mechanics is more challenging and its much harder to be proactive in pvp while in PvE its very easy when you learn the mechanics because they dont change and they happen at very easy to predict times, while in PvP thats not the case even when you know all of the mechanics its much harder to predict what exactly will happen. Also you talk about large scale PvP, there is no MMO with good large scale pvp because its really hard to balance the game around it. If the game is balanced around large scale pvp then in small scale pvp nobody will be able to kill nobody, so thats the reason why large scale PvP is not that challenging also in large scale pvp your individual skill contribute very small portion in the equation which predicts the outcome of the fight. So if you compare Raids to just large scale PvP i understand why you find PvP easier, but this modes are fundamentally different in design, Raids in the modern age are designed in a way that even if 1 person fails a curtail mechanics the whole raid fails, while in Large scale PvP thats not the case and if 1 person dies he comes back into the fight shortly, thats why its much more appropriate to compare Raid to PvP mode in which individual skill matters much more as for example 3v3 or 5v5 mode and in this case pvp is much more unpredictable and harder than PvE raid even if you know perfectly what all the enemy classes can do and what their composition can do. Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly. Ofcourse all of that depend on the combat mechanics of the game too but generally speaking PvE is much more predictable therefore much easier than PvP. Anyways i think we are a bit offtopic Most of this doesn't match my experience. "If you already did the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter" - not in the games I play. "In PvP there is much more stuff that needs to be learned." - Also not true. I would elaborate here but I usually get the 'Fighting Games aren't MMOs' response, which is correct because MMOs are almost always less complicated. "Execution of the mechanics is more challenging" - nope. "Raids in the modern age" - Assume that if I am talking, and I BET that when Noaani is talking, this isn't what is being talked about. "Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly." - I once again feel sorrow at the state of the genre if this is the experience of most players. I will continue to hope that Ashes can live up to the standards of the MMOs of Yore so that people can have an experience beyond this.Bonus for NiKr so this post isn't just counterpoints. I remember when I created a thread for what people expect in raids and people didn't really respond to it much. If you have certain expectations of difficulty it's better to push that kind of thread with examples and such as good feedback. If it is old mmorpgs people don't play, were not mainstream, etc it's going to be hard to expect that type of content in anyway without fully expressing it enough and what you desire as a player for content and difficulty.
Azherae wrote: » Beyolf wrote: » If you already done the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter and what to expect from it so there is no surprise at all which means that after you know the mechanics it all comes down to their proper execution, and here for me is the difference between a hard engaging PvE and a bad one. If the execution of the mechanics is tight it will be fun and engaging experience, if not then after the first clear it just becomes a chore. In PvP there much more stuff which need to be learned, first what are the classes and what are their strengths weakness, after that what are the synergies between this classes and the different compositions, what are the combat mechanics and how they work, after you learn all that ofcourse the valuable options are not countless they are limited but still the execution of the mechanics is more challenging and its much harder to be proactive in pvp while in PvE its very easy when you learn the mechanics because they dont change and they happen at very easy to predict times, while in PvP thats not the case even when you know all of the mechanics its much harder to predict what exactly will happen. Also you talk about large scale PvP, there is no MMO with good large scale pvp because its really hard to balance the game around it. If the game is balanced around large scale pvp then in small scale pvp nobody will be able to kill nobody, so thats the reason why large scale PvP is not that challenging also in large scale pvp your individual skill contribute very small portion in the equation which predicts the outcome of the fight. So if you compare Raids to just large scale PvP i understand why you find PvP easier, but this modes are fundamentally different in design, Raids in the modern age are designed in a way that even if 1 person fails a curtail mechanics the whole raid fails, while in Large scale PvP thats not the case and if 1 person dies he comes back into the fight shortly, thats why its much more appropriate to compare Raid to PvP mode in which individual skill matters much more as for example 3v3 or 5v5 mode and in this case pvp is much more unpredictable and harder than PvE raid even if you know perfectly what all the enemy classes can do and what their composition can do. Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly. Ofcourse all of that depend on the combat mechanics of the game too but generally speaking PvE is much more predictable therefore much easier than PvP. Anyways i think we are a bit offtopic Most of this doesn't match my experience. "If you already did the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter" - not in the games I play. "In PvP there is much more stuff that needs to be learned." - Also not true. I would elaborate here but I usually get the 'Fighting Games aren't MMOs' response, which is correct because MMOs are almost always less complicated. "Execution of the mechanics is more challenging" - nope. "Raids in the modern age" - Assume that if I am talking, and I BET that when Noaani is talking, this isn't what is being talked about. "Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly." - I once again feel sorrow at the state of the genre if this is the experience of most players. I will continue to hope that Ashes can live up to the standards of the MMOs of Yore so that people can have an experience beyond this.Bonus for NiKr so this post isn't just counterpoints.
Beyolf wrote: » If you already done the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter and what to expect from it so there is no surprise at all which means that after you know the mechanics it all comes down to their proper execution, and here for me is the difference between a hard engaging PvE and a bad one. If the execution of the mechanics is tight it will be fun and engaging experience, if not then after the first clear it just becomes a chore. In PvP there much more stuff which need to be learned, first what are the classes and what are their strengths weakness, after that what are the synergies between this classes and the different compositions, what are the combat mechanics and how they work, after you learn all that ofcourse the valuable options are not countless they are limited but still the execution of the mechanics is more challenging and its much harder to be proactive in pvp while in PvE its very easy when you learn the mechanics because they dont change and they happen at very easy to predict times, while in PvP thats not the case even when you know all of the mechanics its much harder to predict what exactly will happen. Also you talk about large scale PvP, there is no MMO with good large scale pvp because its really hard to balance the game around it. If the game is balanced around large scale pvp then in small scale pvp nobody will be able to kill nobody, so thats the reason why large scale PvP is not that challenging also in large scale pvp your individual skill contribute very small portion in the equation which predicts the outcome of the fight. So if you compare Raids to just large scale PvP i understand why you find PvP easier, but this modes are fundamentally different in design, Raids in the modern age are designed in a way that even if 1 person fails a curtail mechanics the whole raid fails, while in Large scale PvP thats not the case and if 1 person dies he comes back into the fight shortly, thats why its much more appropriate to compare Raid to PvP mode in which individual skill matters much more as for example 3v3 or 5v5 mode and in this case pvp is much more unpredictable and harder than PvE raid even if you know perfectly what all the enemy classes can do and what their composition can do. Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly. Ofcourse all of that depend on the combat mechanics of the game too but generally speaking PvE is much more predictable therefore much easier than PvP. Anyways i think we are a bit offtopic
Noaani wrote: » This is a fair point to bring up, but only for the sake of clarity. In the several years unplayed Archeage, the opposing faction only ever had 3 PvP leaders good enough to need thought to beat. In that same time in a PvE game, I would expect to see several hundred raid encounters. If it MUCH easier to produce a new PvE encounter than it is to find someone with the ability to lead a raid effectively.
Noaani wrote: » Also, some PvE encounters are built with an amount of randomness to them. Not many, to be fair, but some. I have had some encounters where our path or so kill of the mob was the first time we came across a particularly devastating AoE. That was one hell of a surprise.
Azherae wrote: » Most of this doesn't match my experience.
Azherae wrote: » "If you already did the encounter at least once you already know everything about the encounter" - not in the games I play. .
Azherae wrote: » "In PvP there is much more stuff that needs to be learned." - Also not true. I would elaborate here but I usually get the 'Fighting Games aren't MMOs' response, which is correct because MMOs are almost always less complicated.
Azherae wrote: » "Execution of the mechanics is more challenging" - nope.
Azherae wrote: » "Another thing is that in PvP you can design different objectives which lead to "winning" in a lot of different ways, while in PvE the objective is 1 kill the boss and you dont have different ways of killing the boss than executing the mechanics correctly." - I once again feel sorrow at the state of the genre if this is the experience of most players. I will continue to hope that Ashes can live up to the standards of the MMOs of Yore so that people can have an experience beyond this.
Beyolf wrote: » Yes totally agree with this, as i said i never seen a large scale pvp done right in an MMO so far because its hard to balance the game around it.
NiKr wrote: » Beyolf wrote: » Yes totally agree with this, as i said i never seen a large scale pvp done right in an MMO so far because its hard to balance the game around it. What would be "done right" in your opinion? I love L2's mass pvp and consider it somewhat well-balanced, where lower amounts of highly skilled (or better geared) people can win out against bigger amounts of poorly skilled/geared ones.
Noaani wrote: » I'm curious, in L2, how much of an impact did leadership have in PvP? In Archeage, leadership was more important than numbers - up to a point (having 25% less than the opposition but a better leader would make for a fair fight). However, this was only the case in that games set pieces, sieges, MM, Halcy, some raids, lusca etc. In open PvP without a goal other than just PvP, leadership didn't really matter.
Beyolf wrote: » Let me try to answer your question. 1. In order for large scale battles to be good the damage from 1 play to another should not be very bursty because if 1 player can burst another in just a 1-2 seconds then when few people focus 1 he die in just miliseconds (no time for reaction at all). In lineage2 1v1 fight took "ages" assuming that both players have good gear, thats why the large scale pvp worked quite good, the PvP was more balanced around large amount of groups and their synergy. 2. Tanks should have very important role and should be the primary target not just avoided and ignored as in most cases it happens. 3. There have to be different mechanic for attacking, namely siege weapons and other war tools which has to be play controlled by players and even can be controlled with multiple players. 4. There have to be different defense siege weapons and tools in order to counter different attacking siege weapons, also controlled by players (in some cases multiple players). 5. There have to be some ways to sneak and use some small groups of people to distract the opponent and etc.
