Side quests - mastering immersion

I wonder if AoC will have similar approach to side quests like Skyrim. Skyrim is a game I recently started playing and I am amazed by side quests. Why?
Because there are no indicators above npc head and you must explore every dialog, sometimes quest is hidden behind first dialog, sometimes behind last and there are multiple dialog options to choose, not leading to same answer/objective. Some npcs do not have quest and some do.
I would like intrepid to take same path to side quests.

What do you think?

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Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I wonder if AoC will have similar approach to side quests like Skyrim. Skyrim is a game I recently started playing and I am amazed by side quests. Why?
Because there are no indicators above npc head and you must explore every dialog, sometimes quest is hidden behind first dialog, sometimes behind last and there are multiple dialog options to choose, not leading to same answer/objective. Some npcs do not have quest and some do.
I would like intrepid to take same path to side quests.

What do you think?

I don't agree that this has anything to do with what makes quests, particularly sidequests, immersive.

I have lots of opinions on exactly how that's done, the main thing is that so far, Ashes' writers are doing really good work and I just want them to keep going.

I could write essays and essays of praise on the tiny nuances that make good quest writing, almost all of which I am already seeing in the world. If they can keep up this quality, especially if they have the PRINCIPLES of it to show/teach to everyone on staff instead of just relying on a few writers with the skills...

I don't think 'indicators over someone's head' are going to matter at all. It's the dialogue itself that matters.

VekoKrava

Its exploaration that matters and not giving quest markers above heads limits the mentality of community, which makes them more patient at launch without mainstream ideologies. It is very important to have stable ground that is old fashioned.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Its exploaration that matters and not giving quest markers above heads limits the mentality of community, which makes them more patient at launch without mainstream ideologies. It is very important to have stable ground that is old fashioned.

Sorry, but I disagree with this too. I'm sure some people like it, and it IS a core component of a 'quest' because if you didn't need to at least look around, it probably wasn't a 'quest' just a little 'task' or a 'story beat'.

But I don't believe that a lack of quest indicators is even 'realistic', far less 'helps with patience'. But you and I already disagree on 'what causes changes in player behaviours' in other ways too, so I accept your perspective, this is just technically 'feedback for Intrepid'.

You're doing phenomenally guys, please keep it up.

VekoKrava

Judging from content creators, people are interested in topics like this. But they did not dig deep enough. What this design will do is it will divide players even more, making community like minded and those that adapt will feel much more appreciated then what we have in mmo genre - clown fiesta.

It will have a big impact on players behaviour, the same way why retail wow players cant stand classic wow.

It also immerses players, dont look from perspective of just looking at pointers above their heads, look deeper, what that system does...

@Azherae Did you ever play Skyrim? You have to experience that, sometimes you would lose yourself in town for 20mins just exploring, as I said, it will divide players, but I am sure Steven will be sattisfied with 1mil players, he does not need 5mill, better less then clown fiesta.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Judging from content creators, people are interested in topics like this. But they did not dig deep enough. What this design will do is it will divide players even more, making community like minded and those that adapt will feel much more appreciated then what we have in mmo genre - clown fiesta.

It will have a big impact on players behaviour, the same way why retail wow players cant stand classic wow.

It also immerses players, dont look from perspective of just looking at pointers above their heads, look deeper, what that system does...

@Azherae Did you ever play Skyrim? You have to experience that, sometimes you would lose yourself in town for 20mins just exploring, as I said, it will divide players, but I am sure Steven will be sattisfied with 1mil players, he does not need 5mill, better less then clown fiesta.

I am very familiar with Skyrim.

I study MMORPG and RPG quest writing, among other things. I study them a LOT.

Based on my years of studying I disagree with you, even about what the pointers over heads system does.

I don't believe it influences the behaviours of the type of player that cares about quests to begin with. I understand that it seems weird that someone could have the same experiences and even thought processes/wishes as you do, and come to the exact opposite conclusion, but generally, you should assume that I do this a LOT.

Ludullu

For quite a lot of people the absence of markers would be much more of a pain than an "immersive tool". They'll just groan and go look up "best quests to do in Ashes" and follow the guides that will inevitably get made, exactly because the game won't have said markers.

And those who care a lot about quests, usually care more about the contents and how they're presented, as Azherae has already pointed out. And from the very few quests from alpha1 that I've seen, Intrepid have indeed done quite well already.

And the tiny fraction of the playerbase that care enough about immersion to get annoyed by quest markers are, well, just that - tiny.

And as a personal opinion, I'd probably prefer soft markers (literally what's planned right now) with then no indicators of what to do, other than the quest text itself. From the few hours of wow classic that I've played, I loved to read the quest text and, even more, loved the fact that I had to pay attention to that text or just reference it several times to figure out what I needed to do or where I needed to go. To me that seems way more immersive than most other games I've played, and classic did have exclamation points above npcs iirc.

And as the direct mirror to that, all of my friends, who dragged me into wow in the first place, used a fucking addon to completely sidestep this mechanic. Their addon gave them directions and map markers. And they were all quite annoyed at me for playing wow w/o those addons.

I bet Ashes will have the exact same situation. Some players will immerse themselves, while others will find a 3rd party tool to streamline the experience as much as possible.

VekoKrava

I am not bothered by quest indicators, I am just pointing outmy experience in skyrim. It forces you to explore and every town has its own unique vibe and mentality of people. In one town upin the mountains you might find odd people that are just bored while on the other side near river you would find sonething else, a lot of inns and goods and music that fits skyrim lore. Quests are just there as a point of surpris, because you dont know if this or that npc is going to give you quest or what kind of dialog it will be, its always unique and well made so you have that feeling that you are in medival age. This point of surprise is so well made in skyrim that I wish there was same system in MMOs.

bloodprophet

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Its exploaration that matters and not giving quest markers above heads limits the mentality of community, which makes them more patient at launch without mainstream ideologies. It is very important to have stable ground that is old fashioned.

Some will explore and some won't.
When Falllout 4 came out my intern and I both got it the same weekend. We would discuss our progress as the days went by. Roughly two weeks after we got the game he came in Monday morning proclaiming he had beat the game. When I asked about all the side stuff he had no idea the stuff even existed. He did the main story line and rushed to the end. He did not explore the open world at all or very little.
Some people will search out hidden quests and Easter Eggs. Some will not. Personally I tend to search for this kind of stuff and like figuring stuff out. As NIKr said most people will just get frustrated after 10 seconds of not looking and go find a guide. Your fighting human nature.

CROW3

RDR2 is a master class in immersion. The side quests are almost seamless, and small vignettes are dovetailed almost perfectly.

Riding just outside Rhodes at night and there’s a bonfire in the middle of the woods. Go check it out and it’s a bunch of dudes in white hoods and robes. A good shoot-out later, it’s a smoldering ruin of dead dudes in sheets and I’m back on my horse trying to figure out which train I’m going to rob.

It doesn’t even feel like a side quest. It’s just world event content than spawns randomly.

Much smoother than Skyrim’s scripted events.

Arya_Yeshe

Guys, maybe it depends on the game!

Grindy games demand markers, but if a game is not grindy then too many markers just kills the experience

Well, we gotta start asking ourselves where AoC is in the middle of this.

Games which the quests are supposed to be interesting, it's best not having markers on the compass except for a circle around the area of the quest and then once you are in the area then having a golden glow around the objects of the quest.

I think AoC won't be a grindy game and maybe it shouldn't have those hovering markers on the npcs and maybe should not have too many markers in the compass.

I would prefer markers on the map more like remimders, so I remember I have these quests in this region.
But once I am there, then I would not like seeing yellow exclamation points hovering over npcs.

I think it's the devs job is setting the NPC in a good spots and making it easy finding the npcs

If there are guards in a city then I would like to ask the guard just by alt clicking the name of the npc from my questlog... then the npc marker should appear in my compass and maybe even the route to the npc.

Besides that, then preferably would be nice not having too many markers, generic markers about landmarks in the compass and the map should have markers showing where I have quests so I travel there

Maybe we should make a distinction about map and compass and have a few markers on each, just the ones that make sense for that scope

VekoKrava

@bloodprophet This is not human nature for me, its compulsive nature of being competitive and impatient, its not the way of being human, people should grow beyond that, this is reason why I am proposing for this, they should teach a lesson of being ordinary. A lot of people won't agree with you that its human nature, in fact everything that is compulsive is seen as animalistic in spiritual growth. Its like saying is anger is normal way of being, we as human have ability to choose our emotions therefore if you choose anger you are being animalistic because you let emotions take control over you, thats how animals live, we human are aware much more then animals thus we can choose what we want to feel/do. I would say compassion should be human nature, but many people did not dig deep enough to have it. I took gaming seriously because it has very big impact on humans, its growing fast with every year, therefore companies should take responsibility to point our teenagers into right direction and not direction of hate speech and toxic behavior/impatient behavior. There are ways to do this, we just have to put our thoughts into it and how to achieve this. I am not bothered at quest pointers at all, but I am looking deeper then you do, if you remove them, you remove ability to rush, when people don't have ability to rush at launch, they will take it slow and they might adapt to new way of thinking if they embrace change, if they don't there will be guides as such as there were in Vanilla wow, but only minority of people took that path at launch, today it is different example because vanilla was out for 19 years, people know everything already. At least if they do what I suggested, we will have peace for about a few months, all those toxic players will leave AoC for good and only chill players will be left which means good community where at least I can feel accepted. I don't want another clown fiesta, we are already seeing that with counter PVP posts, they already want PVE servers or PVP specific servers, this kind of mentality will not appreciate any of these suggestions, but if they adapt and embrace change, they can grow in reason.

Its nothing bad to speed run if you look from morality because you are not harming anyone, but from critic of pure reason it is everything that is bad with MMO genre today as it is. RPG games are there to relax you, to take it easy, to enjoy lore and every aspect of immersion/exploring, like we did when we started playing MMO first time, it was whole different world that we could get immersed in and live in for few moments before going to real life struggles, you could become anyone simply by perceiving game differently then from hard core speed runner perspective.

Spif

People are going to rush to gain levels at the beginning (at the very least they will rush to 25 to "complete" their class). And if quests are one of the faster ways to gain XP, people will rush through them.

If the ! is not above the heads of the quest givers, people will look them up (and be annoyed that they have to do it). The best Intrepid can do is give people an option to hide the ! if they don't want it.

That said, I hope that there are plenty of reasons to explore and that there are rewards for exploration. But, the better the reward is for something, the more like it is that a streamer will figure out how to lead people to it.

It's actually possible that Intrepid will have a dynamic system for where (when?) "interesting stuff" appears. The groundwork is there, since there are 4 node types, 6 node levels and 11 different biomes.

VekoKrava

Spif wrote: »

People are going to rush to gain levels at the beginning (at the very least they will rush to 25 to "complete" their class). And if quests are one of the faster ways to gain XP, people will rush through them.

If the ! is not above the heads of the quest givers, people will look them up (and be annoyed that they have to do it). The best Intrepid can do is give people an option to hide the ! if they don't want it.

That said, I hope that there are plenty of reasons to explore and that there are rewards for exploration. But, the better the reward is for something, the more like it is that a streamer will figure out how to lead people to it.

It's actually possible that Intrepid will have a dynamic system for where (when?) "interesting stuff" appears. The groundwork is there, since there are 4 node types, 6 node levels and 11 different biomes.

This is main reason why companies should start designing MMO to be traditional. RPG games from my point of view, would be better if they were about getting cozy and escaping IRL for a while to get immersed and live in virtual world. No matter how ridiculus this sounds, this is purpose of RPG games.

As I said, remember your first MMO, for many people, it was the best experience, no rushing, not knowing anything, pure immersion and exploaration.

This can be made by design for people to experience same vibe again. If you started MMOs in 2000s you should understand what I am talking.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Spif wrote: »

People are going to rush to gain levels at the beginning (at the very least they will rush to 25 to "complete" their class). And if quests are one of the faster ways to gain XP, people will rush through them.

If the ! is not above the heads of the quest givers, people will look them up (and be annoyed that they have to do it). The best Intrepid can do is give people an option to hide the ! if they don't want it.

That said, I hope that there are plenty of reasons to explore and that there are rewards for exploration. But, the better the reward is for something, the more like it is that a streamer will figure out how to lead people to it.

It's actually possible that Intrepid will have a dynamic system for where (when?) "interesting stuff" appears. The groundwork is there, since there are 4 node types, 6 node levels and 11 different biomes.

This is main reason why companies should start designing MMO to be traditional. RPG games from my point of view, would be better if they were about getting cozy and escaping IRL for a while to get immersed and live in virtual world. No matter how ridiculus this sounds, this is purpose of RPG games.

As I said, remember your first MMO, for many people, it was the best experience, no rushing, not knowing anything, pure immersion and exploaration.

This can be made by design for people to experience same vibe again. If you started MMOs in 2000s you should understand what I am talking.

Again, are you SURE that's not just because back then you didn't know all the people that skipped the stuff? Or even simpler, those people didn't try to play MMOs then because gaming as an industry was much smaller?

There are many reasons why Ashes might get the same sort of playerbase. There are games like this, they're just not usually Triple A games so we hear about them less, and MMOs fall off the radar once their playerbase drops, even if it 'drops to numbers that used to be normal' way back then.

There are 820 people playing Mortal Online 2 right now, supposedly, and 1,135 in Neverwinter (idk if there is a server selection on PC for that game, never checked).

What do you expect the reaction to those numbers, to be? In fact, what reaction do they cause YOU to have?

VekoKrava

It tells me that history repeats. Mainstream will always suck. People with taste and pure reason were always with minority.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

It tells me that history repeats. Mainstream will always suck. People with taste and pure reason were always with minority.

That's possibly true, depending on your perspective.

The mainstream, by nature, does not understand things as much as a dedicated fan does, and doesn't care as much.

But that doesn't meant the quality of the product itself has to be lower, you can still make a good game with great quests that you know people will skip, and just make the great quests for all the people who don't skip them and really care.

Single player games just have a massive advantage in why their quests feel better and carry stronger immersion. It takes a lot more skill and more importantly understanding of quest writing and narrative impulse, to make an MMO that does it, because the requirement you have to reach is higher when other players can get involved.

But since Ashes' writers seem to have that understanding, you can probably expect it to be as immersive as Skyrim, or at least close (considering that they have to clear a higher bar, but maybe for you they don't even have to do that).

Ludullu

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

It tells me that history repeats. Mainstream will always suck. People with taste and pure reason were always with minority.

I find this message just a bit ironic, considering your love for WoW. That shit was beyond mainstream, even back in vanilla. It literally ate up other mmos' playerbases, because it was so damn mainstream that everyone wanted to play it.

Now I agree that WoW is trash

but I doubt that you'd agree with me on that statement, while you say that mainstream always sucks.

Vaknar

We know immersion is important to our players and we are certainly looking forward to receiving feedback on the questing system and UI when Alpha Two testing arrives! ^_^

VekoKrava

Wow isa masterpiece, but only Vanilla WoW.

My standpoint for hidden quest trackers is that its good way to create replay ability, all masterpiece RPG had UI like that. Yes its seen as hard, but point of RPG is not to speed run as I said.

I am repeating myself because I am using rhetoric, stupidly enough I cant find better statement then this.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Wow isa masterpiece, but only Vanilla WoW.

My standpoint for hidden quest trackers is that its good way to create replay ability, all masterpiece RPG had UI like that. Yes its seen as hard, but point of RPG is not to speed run as I said.

I am repeating myself because I am using rhetoric, stupidly enough I cant find better statement then this.

Replayability in MMOs, particularly related to questing, is related to a pretty common (but hard to execute) principle, and while hidden quest markers DO trigger the feeling, again, it's that MMOs don't have the luxury of how single player games do it.

A single player game can create an EXPECTATION that there are quests for most NPCs. They can make you the hero, and being the automatic hero allows them to use a literary trick. They can give everyone you meet a problem for YOU PERSONALLY to solve based on the setting.

MMOs are LESS immersive when they do this unless they do it with some very high-level writing/characterization techniques. However, having a quest that you only 'notice when you finally trigger it from an NPC you've been around before' is a cheap way to get the same EFFECT but for a REGION and not for a character.

The setting of Ashes is so good, and the quests I've seen so far are so well-fitted, that they are managing to do it properly without having to hope that you only encounter the quest later, so the effect is STRONGER and even better as a result. But it's also not very compatible with 'no quest markers'. When this is done correctly, having quest markers is a GOOD thing.

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