My quest for fixing gaming community

People cannot find wisdom in games because they do not search for it.

Games are hard to master because of their purpose.

People need to change their ways and become more acceptable of change.

More and more teenagers are becoming toxic and impatient (especially in MMOs because of their progression design element).

If you search for end results you will never find peace which means you will become impatient and not be available for peace.

Don't become average WoW player, embrace hard ''design'' in MMOs. Hard things do really teach players patience and stability.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Rhorden

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

People cannot find wisdom in games because they do not search for it.

Games are hard to master because of their purpose.

People need to change their ways and become more acceptable of change.

More and more teenagers are becoming toxic and impatient (especially in MMOs because of their progression design element).

If you search for end results you will never find peace which means you will become impatient and not be available for peace.

Don't become average WoW player, embrace hard ''design'' in MMOs. Hard things do really teach players patience and stability.

I read your post and immediately what came to mind was older values and lessons learned on a much longer road than most here can comprehend. Makes me curious...

JamesSunderland

Good luck on your quest but, humans always choose the "path of least resistance" and how hard something is meaningless without something to justify it.
People simple have different playstyles and adapt to games in their own ways, atleast until a meta is stabilished, and if that meta is "too hard" for them? Most will simple let go of it.

VekoKrava

Don't compare game to IRL situations, in real life you would want to choose the easiest path which is usually the wisest path / decision, why would you choose thorns right...

Games are different, we are here (MMORPG fans) to play and enjoy our game the way we want, but problem is that after many years of MMOs we all understood their point and how they are being played. Now there are some people that are compulsive and take gaming seriously, they identify with their achievements and they want more and more, not stopping and are being consistent about things they want.

Problem is not the way they play PvP for example with competitive guilds and so on, end game is not problem here, they can wish to have the best gear and be the best in game, but problem is leveling process. I would want devs to focus on solutions about that. Why would you rush game to end game and not having any clue whats going on about lore. Its insane to me, for them it is okay because they are not harming anyone, I get that, but I also get why they don't understand whats wrong with that...

Arya_Yeshe

@VekoCrnogorac could not no monopolize the forum and keep bumping your own threads?

your posts doesn't make any sense overall to most people and even when people answer you it looks like you don't understand the answer

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Don't compare game to IRL situations, in real life you would want to choose the easiest path which is usually the wisest path / decision, why would you choose thorns right...

Games are different, we are here (MMORPG fans) to play and enjoy our game the way we want, but problem is that after many years of MMOs we all understood their point and how they are being played. Now there are some people that are compulsive and take gaming seriously, they identify with their achievements and they want more and more, not stopping and are being consistent about things they want.

Problem is not the way they play PvP for example with competitive guilds and so on, end game is not problem here, they can wish to have the best gear and be the best in game, but problem is leveling process. I would want devs to focus on solutions about that. Why would you rush game to end game and not having any clue whats going on about lore. Its insane to me, for them it is okay because they are not harming anyone, I get that, but I also get why they don't understand whats wrong with that...

I think I finally have a way to explain this to you, but I don't know if you're the type to actually walk through questions. Let's give it a shot.

You say that MMO players need to slow down, to grind, to not just 'spend all their time rushing through PvE'.

Do you also think that players should always have to PvE no matter what?

There's a style of player out there that ONLY does professions, who buys all the materials, who sells the products, and who doesn't actually do any fighting, or story, if they don't have to. They enjoy the game too. They don't have to grind either EXCEPT grinding JUST the professions.

Is this person also 'playing wrong'? Is this also a person who 'doesn't understand what is wrong about the way they play the game'?

VekoKrava

I don't know how to explain it better then if you play one aspect of MMO you are shallow player. It's not wrong to just do professions. It's just matter of if MMO is theme-park or more traditional RPG, which I think Intrepid studios are aiming to more traditional RPG game, which means there will be high demand on professions/consumables.

I just hope they do go that path and make consumables important, because I am pretty sure that it is the biggest gold sink if done right. Even if you design piece of gear that loses durability and get destroyed, I would argue that it is not that big of gold sink because you will use only the best gear in ''important'' content such as sieges and that kind of gear will last for months, and you will use standard ''farming'' gear for open world which will get destroyed faster because it's lower tier and will be replaced easily.

I assume you guys want more theme-park approach to MMORPGs because you don't want to grind. It is not matter of ''playing wrong'', but designing game to be traditional.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I don't know how to explain it better then if you play one aspect of MMO you are shallow player. It's not wrong to just do professions. It's just matter of if MMO is theme-park or more traditional RPG, which I think Intrepid studios are aiming to more traditional RPG game, which means there will be high demand on professions/consumables.

I just hope they do go that path and make consumables important, because I am pretty sure that it is the biggest gold sink if done right. Even if you design piece of gear that loses durability and get destroyed, I would argue that it is not that big of gold sink because you will use only the best gear in ''important'' content such as sieges and that kind of gear will last for months, and you will use standard ''farming'' gear for open world which will get destroyed faster because it's lower tier and will be replaced easily.

I assume you guys want more theme-park approach to MMORPGs because you don't want to grind. It is not matter of ''playing wrong'', but designing game to be traditional.

Ok, that's step one...

So 'profession only' players are shallow. Therefore if you have one player who 'just does all the Bosses fighting' (they NEVER fight regular mobs or anything like that once they are at the right level) and they have a friend who 'just does all the production of consumables for that person who does all the fighting' (and they NEVER even fight the bosses OR any regular mobs) and these two people enjoy playing together, they are BOTH playing the game wrong, is that correct?

VekoKrava

You are looking through left-wing ideology of ''everyone can do what they want to do'', reality is that they are shallow players because they are not playing whole game, they just play part of a whole game which is just shallow.

Usually if people are right-wing and are reasonable like a true philosopher, they won't be wrong, because why would you for example give people freedom, when people with freedom do dumb stuff. I am not saying that people should not get equal rights, but they tend to live wrong and make sin.

I am far more left then any leftist, but I am right-wing in my mind.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

You are looking through left-wing ideology of ''everyone can do what they want to do'', reality is that they are shallow players because they are not playing whole game, they just play part of a whole game which is just shallow.

Usually if people are right-wing and are reasonable like a true philosopher, they won't be wrong, because why would you for example give people freedom, when people with freedom do dumb stuff. I am not saying that people should not get equal rights, but they tend to live wrong and make sin.

I am far more left then any leftist, but I am right-wing in my mind.

I'm going to take that as a very elaborate 'yes'.

I'm just trying to get to one understanding.

Those players, between them, probably spend the exact same amount of time. They probably spend the same amount of consumables.

Their effect on the economy is the same as if they were both playing the way you consider is right.

Your perspectives are your own, but they don't actually affect economy.

VekoKrava

If consumables are worth then I am all up for everyone playing however they want. This is core of my philosophy, MMORPGs should have gold dump no matter how they approach it, but I would argue that if you make consumables strong and hard to get, there is strong possibility that they will be expensive, which will create big gold spending for both PVErs and PVPers, if you are farming in open world, that may be up to you if you want to use consumables to min-max, but I never used consumables for open world farming in Vanilla WoW.

What is very important, I do not think that devs should do balancing in PVP/PVE scenarios around consumables, my idea is not to make consumables mandatory for raids, my idea is that players can decide if they want to run raid faster or slower or if they want to progress faster and not wipe too much, everything should be doable without consumables, if you want things to be harder then by all means don't spend gold, people did that in classic WoW and it worked fine, it should be up to you if you want hard stuff and not up to devs, this can be done through consumables. I am all up for players to decide how they want to play, not up to devs I am saying again, you are selfish if you want everything to be ''hard''.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

If consumables are worth then I am all up for everyone playing however they want. This is core of my philosophy, MMORPGs should have gold dump no matter how they approach it, but I would argue that if you make consumables strong and hard to get, there is strong possibility that they will be expensive, which will create big gold spending for both PVErs and PVPers, if you are farming in open world, that may be up to you if you want to use consumables to min-max, but I never used consumables for open world farming in Vanilla WoW.

What is very important, I do not think that devs should do balancing in PVP/PVE scenarios around consumables, my idea is not to make consumables mandatory for raids, my idea is that players can decide if they want to run raid faster or slower or if they want to progress faster and not wipe too much, everything should be doable without consumables, if you want things to be harder then by all means don't spend gold, people did that in classic WoW and it worked fine, it should be up to you if you want hard stuff and not up to devs, this can be done through consumables. I am all up for players to decide how they want to play, not up to devs I am saying again, you are selfish if you want everything to be ''hard''.

I am not surprised that your real wish is just 'that consumables have value'.

That has been a very transparent goal throughout all your posts. I believe most people here agree with this wish. You don't need to explain it related to a lot of other things people don't like. Do you understand now?

Consumables are not a gold sink, they only transfer it. Therefore they are not important for the goal, this is just based on a misunderstanding you have about game Economics. Just say what you want and leave it to the people who understand it very well.

This is why people are telling you that WoW is not that impressive, it leads to misunderstandings of the genre, and then people copy those misunderstandings but don't even make games as good as WoW. That ruins WoW's reputation.

Don't ruin WoW's reputation any more.

VekoKrava

When did games follow vanilla WoW tradition? I might never head about those games, what they did however was copy cataclysm wow systems with more and more convenience...

I don't know why you think consumables are not gold sink, because I spent 90% of my gold to buying consumables on max level in vanilla WoW...

When is farming professions and doing economy wrong in MMORPGs, you can do it in many ways, one of the ways if not the best is to bring something that everyone can benefit from it, both in PVP and PVE situations.

I can only think of consumables, durability on armor/weapons, riding training and buying mounts, buying crafting recipes, buying materials for crafting and making gear and other things from profession (this may vary from situation to situation because some professions will be useless for PVE or some for PVP)

Wow reputation ruined when they introduced new expansion - TBC, vanilla WoW was masterpiece and no game copied that game, what they did copy that I can remember is that they designed open world mobs to be easier then vanilla WoW, because wow designed open world mobs to be easier then EQ99 mobs, but WoW found this balance that was important, you could kill any mob same lvl with you easily, but you will lose mana/hp and you had to sit and drink/eat food, if you pulled 2 mobs you would struggle a lot, on some classes you would even die... Newer games didn't find this balance. They started giving more convenience because they thought that is future of MMOs. Look now what we have, you don't even need to sustain your character, many games are lobby games similar to League of Legends. This is not aim for AoC, intrepid studio said that in many interviews. They will create grind no matter how much you dislike it. Now if you say that you want grind, then what is wrong with all my story or did you dump on me because you dislike the fact that I played vanilla WoW? I am really curious what vanilla WoW did wrong because no one explained that to me, and I gave you so many reasons why economy in wow worked well. Tell me why economy is bad in vanilla WoW please for last time I ask you that, because when I asked you that, many of you said ohh you did not play EVE online, well I didn't, but @Arya_Yeshe said that materials in that game cost more then crafted items, that means that economy in that game collapsed and it might be due to unreasonably high numbers that are not logical for us. Let's all agree that it is way more better for one potion to cost 10g and that we can farm 100g per hour then if it costed 2g and we could farm 10k gold per hour... If you do not want this grind every day, then you are by all means not true RPG player because you want new age MMO and not to keep tradition. Sorry but I am far right-wing now because that is a fact, we need to hold tradition and not create more lobby MMOs.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I don't know why you think consumables are not gold sink, because I spent 90% of my gold to buying consumables on max level in vanilla WoW...

Where did all that gold go to?

VekoKrava

I understand what you are saying, but then you can say nothing is gold sink unless you pay that to vendor (example, buying mounts). Everything is gold sink for me because I do not want to be able to craft high tier flasks/potions unless I picked to master alchemy, no one should be equal therefore you will have to sink your gold.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, but then you can say nothing is gold sink unless you pay that to vendor (example, buying mounts). Everything is gold sink for me because I do not want to be able to craft high tier flasks/potions unless I picked to master alchemy, no one should be equal therefore you will have to sink your gold.

That is correct.

Nothing is a gold sink unless you are paying a vendor.

Where did you GET most of your gold?

VekoKrava

How it is not gold sink if I paid 100g for flask for example, and I farmed 1 hour of grinding to get that 100g? It is gold sink for individual, idk what kind of logic you have, but I did not mean that we lost that gold, I mean that I spent that gold, this is very important...

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

How it is not gold sink if I paid 100g for flask for example, and I farmed 1 hour of grinding to get that 100g? It is gold sink for individual, idk what kind of logic you have, but I did not mean that we lost that gold, I mean that I spent that gold, this is very important...

Right, but you farmed 1h of grinding. Did you get the gold just from gold drops from killing the mobs? That's 'generating' gold out of 'nothing' right? You 'gave up some time' and the game 'gave you gold'?

Or did you have to farm things that someone else actually wanted to buy from you?

Ludullu

With all this talk of how "wow had the best consumable-based gold sinks" (which are not even gold sinks), here's a truly amazing consumable-based sink (both gold and gear) from L2

This is a consumable that, iirc, doubled your atk dmg (maybe not x2, but definitely x1.x). It was used up on every attack, if activated. The only way to get this consumable was from a crafting class (would be a profession or a collective effort of several professions in Ashes). At this point this would be a "gold sink" in Veko's mind, but that's not all.

As you can see in the picture, the recipe required crystals and an ore.

The only way to get the ore is to buy it from a vendor. That the true gold sink of this consumable.

There're 3 ways of getting the crystals. You take apart or fail an overenchantemnt of a piece of gear (gear sink). Or you use a particular tool on particular mobs after the lord of a castle set up a particular system linked to the castle (here's a vid about it), which lets you farm a certain item that you can then trade for the crystal, while still paying money on top of that (a yet another gold sink).

So, in other words, a yet another contemporary of WoW's vanilla who "did it better" (imo

).

edit: oh, and those gold sinks also fed the castle taxes, which helped with the setting up of the system I mentioned and supported guilds that held the castles, which would perfectly fit Ashes as well.

VekoKrava

Azherae wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

How it is not gold sink if I paid 100g for flask for example, and I farmed 1 hour of grinding to get that 100g? It is gold sink for individual, idk what kind of logic you have, but I did not mean that we lost that gold, I mean that I spent that gold, this is very important...

Right, but you farmed 1h of grinding. Did you get the gold just from gold drops from killing the mobs? That's 'generating' gold out of 'nothing' right? You 'gave up some time' and the game 'gave you gold'?

Or did you have to farm things that someone else actually wanted to buy from you?

I would farm things that other would buy, there is no farm in wow that you can earn without player interaction on auction house or trading. WoW is a great game because of all gathering/professions you could also farm gold in other ways, like for example killing timber bears in winterspring for attack power flask that costs around 10g each and per hour you would be able to get some 50-75g, or you could farm elementals for some element materials used for crafting, you would sell all this to other players. Or you could sell tanking services in Scholomance dungeon and take all runes that drop - per dungeon 3-4 runes worth of 20g each... Etc... There are many ways even in lower level areas and this gives that sandbox vibe I am talking about, because everything is important and has value not just high tier items/materials from high lvl zones. I love sandbox design ideas, but in a game that is similar to Ashes of Creation or even WoW with instanced content...

VekoKrava

NiKr wrote: »

With all this talk of how "wow had the best consumable-based gold sinks" (which are not even gold sinks), here's a truly amazing consumable-based sink (both gold and gear) from L2

This is a consumable that, iirc, doubled your atk dmg (maybe not x2, but definitely x1.x). It was used up on every attack, if activated. The only way to get this consumable was from a crafting class (would be a profession or a collective effort of several professions in Ashes). At this point this would be a "gold sink" in Veko's mind, but that's not all.

As you can see in the picture, the recipe required crystals and an ore.

The only way to get the ore is to buy it from a vendor. That the true gold sink of this consumable.

There're 3 ways of getting the crystals. You take apart or fail an overenchantemnt of a piece of gear (gear sink). Or you use a particular tool on particular mobs after the lord of a castle set up a particular system linked to the castle (here's a vid about it), which lets you farm a certain item that you can then trade for the crystal, while still paying money on top of that (a yet another gold sink).

So, in other words, a yet another contemporary of WoW's vanilla who "did it better" (imo ).

edit: oh, and those gold sinks also fed the castle taxes, which helped with the setting up of the system I mentioned and supported guilds that held the castles, which would perfectly fit Ashes as well.

That sounds amazing, I always liked buying stuff from vendors for immersion, it gives me that special cozy feeling that I used to get from old WoW. For example you would enter this area 10+ lvl with 5lvl gear and you could spend all silver for 10lvl gear, which would later on lead to not having gold/silver for training spells haha... amazing right, then you learn about this immersion and then you count every penny as if it was real life money.

WoW had also very good sinks like training (you could get around 2k gold from 1-60, but with spell training you are only left with 300g on 60lvl), or for example some materials from vendors that are used for crafting (not hard-core but there was spending) or Ammo for hunters, reagents for buff classes (quite expensive), poison brewing for rogues (my friend would spend 20-30g per day world PVPing in open world, he would sap target then change poisons depending if class is caster, melee or healer - 3 different types of poison), ofc as you might heard before - mounts - 80g on lvl 40 and 1000gold on level 60. Consider that you could not farm more then 50g per hour on max level at phase 1 (patch 1) because there were not many good farms or needed consumables like frost resistance potions that were used in last patch (which was the most hard-cpre because they were mandatory)...

Child Item