Simple proof of Vanilla WoW prep before raid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaFdVeK-gpo

Isn't this beautiful to see? Imagine all hours spend to prepare like this guy, the grind, the people you meet, the enemies you kill in open world, all the adventures? This is what makes MMO epic.

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VekoKrava

If they designed gear to lose durability until its destroyed at some point, then again even with this kind of design, consumables would be better gold sink then that design. If we had so many consumables as vanilla WoW had, it would mean pretty much before any raid or siege you would need 2 hours of farming and preparing. Which leads to more people doing professions/economy in open world, which means to more people playing game as it is intended, its MMORPG after all, it is like if you are playing game inside a game.

Tell me any MMORPG that does not aim for game design that revolves around Competitive content/ leveling / doing professions, where they fail? At professions, because most of consumables are cheap which leads to more of a theme-park approach to RPGs then traditional RPGs...

Strevi

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

but limiting it is better then giving players full power

That is like if you were dictator that is all up for compassion and peace and stability and if you were very wise and knowledgeable, would you risk everything or make stability in your country?

funny example

VekoKrava

I am right-wing oriented when it comes to designing MMORPGs haha.

I can't explain it better then that I want to keep tradition in this genre, because why would everyone complain if MMORPGs are on right path. Theme-park is not future for MMOs, only those that ''don't have time'' will rather play theme-park MMOs then true traditional RPG MMO.

Why would WoW lose peak of 12 mil active subs over the last 10 years when they started giving convenience, it is reality that majority of people do not want lobby MMO. Now WoW has around 2mil active subs and its counting both classic and retail, classic is about 50% of wow subs atm...

Talents

At this point I'm thinking WoW is the only MMO you've ever played. You definitely have rose tinted goggles thinking Vanilla WoW had peak systems.

VekoKrava

It had the greatest economy of all 4 games that I played, not the systems, systems from professions were as simple as they can be and you did not need to grind many hours to hit max skill, you could do it with ease while leveling and not having to catch up except if you were miner/herbalist/engineer... But even then, 1 hour of farming would do it before you go to the next leveling area.

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

It had the greatest economy of all 4 games that I played, not the systems, systems from professions were as simple as they can be and you did not need to grind many hours to hit max skill, you could do it with ease while leveling and not having to catch up except if you were miner/herbalist/engineer... But even then, 1 hour of farming would do it before you go to the next leveling area.

You just played four games with Average/below average rated economies.

You've made that very clear to everyone repeatedly.

VekoKrava

If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. @Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?

Azherae

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. @Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?

Firstly, I doubt they care, but I don't think you should assume Arya is a 'she'. While we're on that topic I'm not a 'he' either (but I also don't care, so don't worry about it, I'm just informing you in case you're the type of person who pays attention to that).

Moving on.

Targeting someone else's example or one bad point in a game is not a valid way to argue this, clearly. Otherwise it would be fair for us to talk about 'WoW at all times'. You don't know if something went wrong in EVE's design for that period and then it got fixed. That happens to games all the time. Leave that out of this.

You have FOUR threads active. I have chosen one to respond to you in. It is the one where I ask only the short questions. You can continue to post in these others but I'll ignore those posts.

At this point, a mod could merge all of your topics and I doubt it would even be confusing.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Firstly, I doubt they care, but I don't think you should assume Arya is a 'she'. While we're on that topic I'm not a 'he' either (but I also don't care, so don't worry about it, I'm just informing you in case you're the type of person who pays attention to that).

Everyone on the internet is a "he" until proven otherwise (note; I am not asking for proof).

I'm all for merging these "WoW is just grrrrreeeeaaaat!" topics in to one.

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

If you give me reason why some game was better then vanilla WoW economy I will stop arguing, because no one said so. Arya_Yeshe said to me that EVE online had much better economy, and few posts after I asked her why? she said why and we together found out (she found out and replied to post instantly before me replying) that EVE online economy collapsed because materials are way more expensive then crafts.... Seems that simplicity of WoW won right?

Why would you assume a market that can not crash is better?

I mean, you are saying "this thing happened to EVE, that makes WoW better", but you are not explaining why you think that WoW not having this makes it better.

A good market should be able to skyrocket, but it should also be able to collapse. WoW can't do either of those things, because Blizzard won't let it. That doesn't make WoW the game with the better economy, that makes WoW the game with the tightest developer control.

VekoKrava

I think I know the answer why vanilla WoW economy never collapsed.

When compared to modern wow, back in vanilla consumables were important and they gave big buffs to player power thus they were expensive.

Although crafted gear that was needed before going to raid collapsed because players did not need these gear after finishing phase 1 of vanilla. For example one piece would cost 200g at start of phase 1, but later in phase 2 it would drop to 100g, were used for alts.

Basically every material that was used for consumables were good even at phase 5. Consider that prices went up for those consumables once newer gold farms occured per phase with better gold per hour.

At start players would be happy if they managed to farm 30g per hour, but later in phases that would increase to 75g.

Skinning was only profession that was very bad later on. Crafting professions were decent because of new alts. Enchanting and alchemy/herbalism were one of the best. And ebgineering was the best for pvp good all through expansion.

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

I think I know the answer why vanilla WoW economy never collapsed.

When compared to modern wow, back in vanilla consumables were important and they gave big buffs to player power thus they were expensive.

Although crafted gear that was needed before going to raid collapsed because players did not need these gear after finishing phase 1 of vanilla. For example one piece would cost 200g at start of phase 1, but later in phase 2 it would drop to 100g, were used for alts.

Basically every material that was used for consumables were good even at phase 5. Consider that prices went up for those consumables once newer gold farms occured per phase with better gold per hour.

At start players would be happy if they managed to farm 30g per hour, but later in phases that would increase to 75g.

Skinning was only profession that was very bad later on. Crafting professions were decent because of new alts. Enchanting and alchemy/herbalism were one of the best. And ebgineering was the best for pvp good all through expansion.

No, the reason vanilla WoW's economy never collapsed is because it was small. Consumables were a big part of the economy - which just shows how small it was in comparison to a game like EVE where they are a much smaller part of the economy - despite being used even more than they are in WoW.

You still haven't explained why you equate an economic collapse with a bad economy in an MMORPG.

VekoKrava

Simplicity is key to building good economy. Games are not real life and should not need complex economy like eve.

My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Simplicity is key to building good economy.

Again, you keep saying this, but give no reason behind it.

When a game has it's economy as a central aspect of the game, rather than just being a means for players to buy and sell with each other, complexity is key.

In WoW, the economy is literally just a way for people playing other aspects of the game to trade the results of what they do with others. In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.

This statement doesn't make much sense to me. You are comparing spending in real life with earning in a game.

In a game, you farm every day to earn gold to buy things. In life, you go to work every day so that you have money to buy things. Farming in a game is literally just like work in life.

Sure, you want the jacket you buy to last a long time, but it is an item, not a consumable. I have to assume you don't expect the onion (a consumable) you bought to last you as long as that jacket.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.

Those damn shallow one-gameplay players. Ewww.

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.

Those damn shallow one-gameplay players. Ewww.

I tried that style of gameplay, I promised myself that for some weeks I would only do that and I would do no PvP or PvE

I wanted to see if it was a real thing doing a living as a merchant in EVE, it is very real, it's quite amazing how strong EVE's economy is

I can confirm I could live like that, but it demands a lot of organization and knowing the game, a lot of traveling, being stealthy and many really dangerous travels

VekoKrava

Noaani wrote: »

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Simplicity is key to building good economy.

Again, you keep saying this, but give no reason behind it.

When a game has it's economy as a central aspect of the game, rather than just being a means for players to buy and sell with each other, complexity is key.

In WoW, the economy is literally just a way for people playing other aspects of the game to trade the results of what they do with others. In a game like EVE, the economy IS the game to many players.

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

My argument was and always will be that IRL when I buy jacket, I want it to last long, where in games I want to have individual gold spending every day, so that I have to farm at least 1hr per day. Especially if gathering is made like AoC.

This statement doesn't make much sense to me. You are comparing spending in real life with earning in a game.

In a game, you farm every day to earn gold to buy things. In life, you go to work every day so that you have money to buy things. Farming in a game is literally just like work in life.

Sure, you want the jacket you buy to last a long time, but it is an item, not a consumable. I have to assume you don't expect the onion (a consumable) you bought to last you as long as that jacket.

This is why consumables are strong gold sink for everyone that did not master alchemy...

Simplicity in numbers can create good economy...because of simplicity. I might be wrong although I want to tell you that I believe if we had simple crafts without so many complex crafts within crafts it will be much mkre organized and would create simple way of deciding prices. I would like to see how AoC will do.

Atm I am playing gloria victis and there is much complex crafting then vanilla wow and I already see some prices do not make sense. But I like that game because I farm silvers per hour and not 20000gold.

KingDDD

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Compare vanilla prep to any other mainstream mmo... this looks amazing, especially if you know process of doing this.

The hilarious thing is no one did this in 2006. Vanilla is not the same as classic.

Noaani

VekoCrnogorac wrote: »

Simplicity in numbers can create good economy...because of simplicity.

No, simplicity can create an environment where trade is easy.

Trade and the economy are not the same thing.

Your argument would probably be better stated if you said "I prefer games that try to implement ease of trade between players, but don't actually attempt to have any functioning economy" - because that is WoW (vanilla, classic, current, all of it).

The interesting thing is - a game can have an environment where trade is easy - as easy as it is in WoW - but where there is also an economy. EVE is not really an example of this, as trading in EVE is not designed to be frictionless.

If you want a good example of a game with a simple trade system, but also a good economy, you want Archeage.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

If you want a good example of a game with a simple trade system, but also a good economy, you want Archeage.

Btw, @Noaani I don't remember if this was discussed in one of these 12 fucking same threads, but what was the situation with consumables in AA? And with their role in the bigger economy of the game.

I know that AoC's crafting and economy inspirations might be closer to EVE or SWG, but still. L2's economy was pretty much based on a consumable, so, in case Steven pushes for his own inspirations when discussing these designs, what the situation in AA was?

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