Espionage, Spying, and Counter-Play

I saw recently that spying and espionage would be a part of the game and encouraged.
I'm really glad it is as I love that kind of gameplay and am very familiar with it but I do have a concern.

I played EVE Online for 15 years and was an Alliance leader of roughly 1200 players.
I'm very well acquainted with spy mechanics and defenses involved for that.
It's a very big part of the game and something I -very- much enjoyed.

EVE has a system in which a corporation (guild) or alliance (group of guilds) can request a players API Key.
This gives the HR team of the corp/alliance Read Only access to that players in-game emails, transactions, and skills.
It helps spy teams that are well organized to discover spies before they deal damage to the in-game organization.
Badly organized guilds that don't do research on their recruits will miss spies and end up losing assets/intel as a result.
Well organized guilds can raise concerns with the applicant or drop them to avoid danger.

Without this API key there is no proper way to stop spying or espionage from dealing potentially critical damage.
In a world with alts, different allegiances, and spy mechanics I am worried there will be no counter-play.

Does Ashes of Creation have a plan in place for a similar or better system?
Has a system of counter-play been discussed for espionage players and their actions?
What is the expected path to discover a spy before they deal damage to your guild?

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bloodprophet

We know little about planned counter play systems at this point.

There will be no access to API's or addon's
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Addons.

Guild leaders will have several tools.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_formation

Leadership tools

The developers are considering a number of leadership tools for guilds:[21][22]

Recruitment tools.[21][22]
Management tools.[21][22]
Delegation tools.[21][22]
Motivational systems.[21][22]
Communication tools.[21][22]
Guild alerts.[21][22]
Board messages.[21][22]
In game chat.[21][22]
Calendar (may be available via the mobile/web companion app).[23][21][22]
Roster.[21][22]
Standard guild ranks (such as Guild leader and officers).[24]
Custom rank names.[24]
A list of available permissions per rank/role.[24]
Departments within the guild structure with an associated leader.[24]
Audit logs may be available to guild leaders and officers.[25]
Deposits and withdrawals from the guild bank.[25]
Promotions.[25]
Kicks.[25]
Leaves.[25]
Guild stats.[26]
Information about guild membership, such as archetype and class makeup will be made available.[26]
Access to guild stats is subject a permissions structure.[26]

Think more old school spy vs spy type action. Everything done in shadows. Daggers in the dark kind of thing.

Side question. Are spies in EVE dumb enough to use in game trackable tools to communicate vs a random discord server or some other such communication program?

PirateSoftware

Audit logs are a good start but unfortunately that leaves the guild open to attacks and they would then only be able to take action retroactively after the damage was done. I really hope to see this system develop over time and for this kind of play to have more cat and mouse options for both sides. It's definitely important for a skilled spy to be able to win but it's also important for an organized guild to defend its holdings.

In a world where property destruction can be permanent or a massive setback it's really important that there is some kind of available defense option for guilds.

Noaani

bloodprophet wrote: »

Side question. Are spies in EVE dumb enough to use in game trackable tools to communicate vs a random discord server or some other such communication program?

This is the question I had while reading the OP.

I can kind of see how that may have been the case 18 years ago. These days though, Discord is the primary means of communication for many online communities.

If this was something that was added to the game, I would make a point of always having a clean account to use for all of my spying activities. That way, if I were suspected of being a spy, I simply hand over the API for the account I am doing said spying from, they see it has nothing untoward happening, and they immediately drop any notion of suspicion that i may be a spy - making that spying even easier for me.

Basically, I'd turn the thing that they thing is a shield for them in to a weapon for me.

bloodprophet

Could go ever further with this and actively plant seeds of destruction into your API/in game email implicating the inner circle of the organization.
"It doesn't take proof to ruin a relationship. Only suspicion."

PirateSoftware

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Side question. Are spies in EVE dumb enough to use in game trackable tools to communicate vs a random discord server or some other such communication program?

This is the question I had while reading the OP.

I can kind of see how that may have been the case 18 years ago. These days though, Discord is the primary means of communication for many online communities.

If this was something that was added to the game, I would make a point of always having a clean account to use for all of my spying activities. That way, if I were suspected of being a spy, I simply hand over the API for the account I am doing said spying from, they see it has nothing untoward happening, and they immediately drop any notion of suspicion that i may be a spy - making that spying even easier for me.

Basically, I'd turn the thing that they thing is a shield for them in to a weapon for me.

As detailed I have a ton of experience with this.
The short answer, yes.

Many times people will make small and stupid mistakes.
Things like sending some currency to their alt... which is in a rival alliance.
Or an old mail where they have friends with groups actively attacking your org.

You have to remember it's not just about communication.
It's about connections and where resources are going.

In order to utilize the API we built web interfaces to quickly and cleanly look through data like this.
Without those tools... well... you get owned. Rapidly.

This kind of investigation work is a massive part of EVE Online.
It's something I did for many many years.

PirateSoftware

Also, on your note of using only a clean account.
Clean accounts were always met with questions and usually denial to the org.
No history? Red flag.

Especially if the player is skilled and knowledgeable.

PirateSoftware

bloodprophet wrote: »

Could go ever further with this and actively plant seeds of destruction into your API/in game email implicating the inner circle of the organization.
"It doesn't take proof to ruin a relationship. Only suspicion."

Seen that tactic before and it usually works out just fine. Since the people inside the org also have API keys with the spy networks team it's just another internal audit. Since any player is allowed and encouraged to screw you over, a system of auditing and review is pretty commonplace. Suspicion just opens the audit, it generally doesn't lead to action until proof is discovered.

The old phrase always rings true.
Trust... but verify.

Arya_Yeshe

@PirateSoftware we played almost the same amount of time, who are you there?

I hope AoC never have API checks, API checks never ever could stop the real spies anyway since they use the market alt as proxy

AoC should never follow EVE's path with those morbid API checks that let other uknown people read all your ingame emails, all wallet stuff, all contacts, etc

In EVE I have around 140 alts and I can prove it, AoC will never have so many alts because you can't have alpha accounts in AoC and you won't be able to buy subscription time with ingame currency

No API checks in AoC, if people want to spy a little bit then let them spy, you can't even multibox in AoC you will need 2 computers to play with 2 accounts and there is no potato mode to run many virtual machines

Noaani

PirateSoftware wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Side question. Are spies in EVE dumb enough to use in game trackable tools to communicate vs a random discord server or some other such communication program?

This is the question I had while reading the OP.

I can kind of see how that may have been the case 18 years ago. These days though, Discord is the primary means of communication for many online communities.

If this was something that was added to the game, I would make a point of always having a clean account to use for all of my spying activities. That way, if I were suspected of being a spy, I simply hand over the API for the account I am doing said spying from, they see it has nothing untoward happening, and they immediately drop any notion of suspicion that i may be a spy - making that spying even easier for me.

Basically, I'd turn the thing that they thing is a shield for them in to a weapon for me.

As detailed I have a ton of experience with this.
The short answer, yes.

Many times people will make small and stupid mistakes.
Things like sending some currency to their alt... which is in a rival alliance.
Or an old mail where they have friends with groups actively attacking your org.

You have to remember it's not just about communication.
It's about connections and where resources are going.

In order to utilize the API we built web interfaces to quickly and cleanly look through data like this.
Without those tools... well... you get owned. Rapidly.

This kind of investigation work is a massive part of EVE Online.
It's something I did for many many years.

In other words, it only works on stupid people.

If I am maintaining an account for spying purposes, I am not sending resources to or from my main account - even if this mechanic you are asking for isnt in the game I wouldnt be doing that. The notion that I would have communication with anyone that I actually know from this account would mean I am an amateur at best - or one of those stupid spys from above. No one that knows my main will have any communication with this account, that should go without saying.

I would be maintaining an account that has the appearance of being on-again off-again in terms of its subscription, but has a history going back to the first month of the game - something that simply can not be done in EVE, but can in Ashes, which is why this kind of thing works in EVE but wont in Ashes.

If I then want to spy on a guild, I all of a "sudden decided" to play Ashes as my only MMO, and so I'm looking for a permanent in game home. Chances are, some of the people in the guild would even have grouped with my in the past, and assuming I maintain a memorable enough persona, would likely even remember me.

I wouldnt even be using the same credit card to pay the subscription for both accounts - just to be safe. I may go as far as to use a different computer and internet connection as well (spoofing IP and Mac addresses is viable, but easy to forget to do - using different internet connections and computers means these things dont need to be remembered).

I mean, I get that your suggestion would help deal with stupid spys. It just wouldnt do much to prevent real threats - not in a new game.

Edit to add; I'm not even saying I am against the idea, I'm just saying it wont work in Ashes - not against any real threat, and may indeed make spying even easier for people such as myself.

Arya_Yeshe

Noaani wrote: »

In other words, it only works on stupid people.

API checks is only for hoarding data from other people, since they download all information from your account, wallet transactions, contacts, they can downlad and read all your ingame eamails, contracts, all assets etc

BUT THEY ONLY CATCH PEOPLE WHO AREN'T SPIES, people get kicked out of alliances for no reasons
They find out that "you are spy" before you even know you were a spy LOL

The real spies use a proxy alt out of the alliance then spy say its a market alt

People who likes the API are actually spying on their own members, they want a Chinese level espionage in their own members

akabear

PirateSoftware wrote: »

I saw recently that spying and espionage would be a part of the game and encouraged.

If pk`ing was less onerous, I could see the player community regulating consequences for spying, stealing etc.

In the current world, it will likely be regulable by less consequential actions such as booting from guild and alliances not picking up a player, and as a result, I think it will happen more often.

Veeshan

I kinda hope guild get a KoS list where that player is always flagged purple to the guild, reason for this is to stop say unguilded alts or alt account no associated with anything to follow you around giving away position with only option to corrupt yourself to kill him only to find u again upon rezzing and doing it again :P should be a timer though before it takes affect where a player gets notified that they been placed on it however so u can just put somone on it who gathering to kill them instantly

Arya_Yeshe

Veeshan wrote: »

I kinda hope guild get a KoS list where that player is always flagged purple to the guild, reason for this is to stop say unguilded alts or alt account no associated with anything to follow you around giving away position with only option to corrupt yourself to kill him only to find u again upon rezzing and doing it again :P should be a timer though before it takes affect where a player gets notified that they been placed on it however so u can just put somone on it who gathering to kill them instantly

I understand your point but that would be game breaking

In EVE Online there is a contacts list with standings it has:

red: -10
orange -5
gray: 0
light blue: +5
dark blue: +10

The standings is for letting all your members be aware and act accordingly in case of need, but only people at war can be shot everywhere including the high security areas

Then all your members will see a tiny square with the color and people at war with you will be seen as flashy red with a white star in the square

Iskiab

Veeshan wrote: »

I kinda hope guild get a KoS list where that player is always flagged purple to the guild, reason for this is to stop say unguilded alts or alt account no associated with anything to follow you around giving away position with only option to corrupt yourself to kill him only to find u again upon rezzing and doing it again :P should be a timer though before it takes affect where a player gets notified that they been placed on it however so u can just put somone on it who gathering to kill them instantly

This is a great idea that merits its own thread. Guild tools for KoS lists would be great, when you don’t have them it’s very hard to manage them in game.

Something like you can guild wide colour code people or guilds. So someone can be set as red (KoS), yellow, or however the guild wants.

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

I kinda hope guild get a KoS list where that player is always flagged purple to the guild, reason for this is to stop say unguilded alts or alt account no associated with anything to follow you around giving away position with only option to corrupt yourself to kill him only to find u again upon rezzing and doing it again :P should be a timer though before it takes affect where a player gets notified that they been placed on it however so u can just put somone on it who gathering to kill them instantly

I mean, PvE players know how to deal with this situation without needing to even engage in PvP.

I personally think Intrepid should specifically NOT add in such systems, forcing people to think of solutions other than just always "attack".

If you aren't smart enough to come up with a solution to a situation like this without resorting to fighting, then you should simply accept the corruption hit, imo.

Or, you know, we could make the game easy mode for PvP players. Make it so they dont need to think at all, kind if how WoW is for PvE.

CugelTheClever

I feel like there is a lot of potential for rival guilds/alliances to cause problems for each other using in game mechanics that could be considered. For your consideration here are a few ideas.

1. Since node control is where guilds actually game ingame power by being able to collect taxes, build crafting areas, etc. why not add a spy network building option in the game. You could even have the work orders and quests it provided be obscured as something else so players wouldn't necessarily know what they are contributing to. Astute players might be able to figure out that what the work order was actually for though investigation and deduction (why is there a work order for material for an upgrade to lumber milling when I know this node is focusing on metalworking).
2. If you were able to create a spy network ingame it could provide all kinds of useful information about a rival node. It could provide information like the nodes population over a period of time, income, number of caravans departing/arriving to the node, most active hours of the node, etc.
3. A spy network could provide ingame ways to sabotage other nodes like denying that node a percent of it's collected taxes or making work orders require more material.
4. A spy network could provide the node it's in with other potential benefits like displaying where all caravans in the spy network's node are, the location of players from an enemy node, or even letting you spawn creatures in the way or caravan routes to help slow down caravan progression. A high level spy network might even allow the use of monster coins to allow a player to attack a caravan as a raid boss.
5. And finally, you may have a spy network that acts as counter espionage to other nodes, stopping those nodes from doing those things to you and identifying who is trying to harm your node.

The social aspect of the game is going to lead to a lot of ingame politics, alliances, and betrayal. There's going to be a lot of learning here for a lot of players.

Githal

With such Api key you will catch only the worst spies that are unfamiliar with the system.
90% of the spies will only use Discord or some other place to communicate. And their in game communication will be clear.

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