Lack of focus in this livestream

I am not quite sure how to feel about this livestream. There were some key things that were intended to be showed off but weren't really. We barely saw the use of the 2 new melee weapons (you have to find it in a fairly long video), I guess it's not a big part of cleric gameplay(?). Blocking occurred literally once. Constellations were not explained in the slightest... like actually though. The cleric skills weren't explained too much. The synergy and stun mechanic was explained well although repeatedly lol. There was also nice information on conviction (the class specific resource for clerics) which was exciting to learn about. It was a 40 minute video...

It felt like more of a livestream intended for someone to see how the game plays and show off visuals instead of communicating and showcasing some specific things. It could have been much shorter and focused. This is the first video I've seen that didn't feel focused and that Steven+devs were so concerned with 'playing' that they didn't even showcase the key points. You saw nice environments and many many fights with 2-3 mob types but I mean, you could have had just a handful of packs to fight and called it a day. I much prefer the god power streams where the focus is on communication and showcasing new developments than general gameplay. Like if you want to showcase mace and staff combat: zoom in and move the camera around, turn on god mode so you don't die and just hit the mobs for a minute or two.

I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this.

Edit: to clarify, I am happy if people enjoyed the stream. I having nothing but compliments for Steven and the dev team and this is literally the first dev update I've had any of these issues with, this is just meant to be constructive feedback. That being said, liking the video because it showed the 'feeling of gameplay', as valid as it is, does not negate how little information was provided. You can simultaneously like seeing the feeling of gameplay and dislike the lack of information on key things mentioned during the stream, those two things are not mutually exclusive. In a 40 minute video, both could easily be accomplished.

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maouw

Regarding the constellations - I'd rather they keep that info under wraps.
Stars and constellations in high fantasy are full of secrets that have hidden influences and surprises - I'm really happy that they left it at "they influence things", and then we're left to speculate.

In fact, let's start a thread TO speculate.

Liniker

Azherae wrote: »

Why not?

It was a showcase for Cleric.

It was not just a showcase for the cleric, cleric isn't even in the title

neuroguy

maouw wrote: »

Regarding the constellations - I'd rather they keep that info under wraps.
Stars and constellations in high fantasy are full of secrets that have hidden influences and surprises - I'm really happy that they left it at "they influence things", and then we're left to speculate.

In fact, let's start a thread TO speculate.

I understand that point of view, but they literally made a thread about it...

We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Day & Night cycle w/ constellations shown during the November 2022 Development Update Livestream.

To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters:
How do you feel about the day & night cycle?
What aspects of the day & night cycle w/ constellations are important to you?
Are there examples of day & night cycles in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the day & night cycle w/ constellations?

Like how can we begin to answer what aspects of the day night cycle w/ constellations are important to you? We have no idea what that is and they want feedback on it, not speculation.

I love speculation posts or 'what if' posts, that shit is so fun to think about and imagine. But there is a strong and important distinction between speculation and the devs asking for feedback on something they show. You can speculate on how the system could be changed in the feedback sure, but with no knowledge on how it works, it's a bit hard and hollow, no?

neuroguy

Azherae wrote: »

Why not?

It was a showcase for Cleric.

I would expect the target audience to be Clerics.

It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.

Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?

It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.

All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.

What the what?

There is no game. There are no clerics. This is information we are being provided that will show people how the cleric class may play and help people decide if they want to play one. You have no idea what any cleric skill does beyond the things they've shown us before and all of that is subject to change. Most people would like to know for example if there are any changes to the cleric skills from A1.
Edit: plus we are meant to give feedback to change this system if we see fit. So 'I am a cleric' has no meaning because there is no cleric and the current version of a cleric may change based on our feedback. I actually don't even know what you mean with your post.

Azherae

neuroguy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Why not?

It was a showcase for Cleric.

I would expect the target audience to be Clerics.

It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.

Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?

It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.

All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.

What the what?

There is no game. There are no clerics. This is information we are being provided that will show people how the cleric class may play and help people decide if they want to play one. You have no idea what any cleric skill does beyond the things they've shown us before and all of that is subject to change. Most people would like to know for example if there are any changes to the cleric skills from A1.

Very well, I'll disengage.

I don't know if it is that you don't play Cleric, but I'm pretty confident that this isn't just me, or some form of super specialized skill.

When you play Cleric, you watch and do certain things. The showcase gave direct access to each and every one of those things in multiple situations, which is more helpful, and it was required to be relatively long for related reasons.

I'm trying to tell you that 'Knowing what Cleric skills do' is MUCH less important to a Cleric than what they showed. I cannot 'read a list of skills for the healer in an MMO' and get any ideas about how it works at ALL. I need what I was given to know if I want to play it or not.

That's all I have to say, I guess. You can consider the point 'conceded' in whatever way is required.

I will hope that Steven and the guys know why I am thankful, and if it was intentional, then this conversation is me 'being supportive of their intention'. I can only be encouraging in feedback of what I benefit from.

GrandSerpent

neuroguy wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Why not?

It was a showcase for Cleric.

I would expect the target audience to be Clerics.

It was clearly communicated to me. I'm not really understanding entirely your point, though I don't really want to discredit it.

Would telling you the specifics of Cleric skills in the way that it was for Ranger skills tell you anything about Cleric?

It's the same as 'the Ranger stream actually being largely about placement, charge times, targeting, and longbows'. The skills were practically an afterthought, but the parts of them that were explained were critical to 'how Ranger plays' I think.

All I'm saying is that the information that I, as a Cleric, need, was communicated perfectly, and nearly any OTHER information that could have been communicated would not have been what I needed to know in any way. I would hope it isn't too 'selfish' to hope that a Cleric showcase should be tailored towards informing the Clerics.

What the what?

There is no game. There are no clerics. This is information we are being provided that will show people how the cleric class may play and help people decide if they want to play one. You have no idea what any cleric skill does beyond the things they've shown us before and all of that is subject to change. Most people would like to know for example if there are any changes to the cleric skills from A1.
Edit: plus we are meant to give feedback to change this system if we see fit. So 'I am a cleric' has no meaning because there is no cleric and the current version of a cleric may change based on our feedback. I actually don't even know what you mean with your post.

Yet oddly, none of the clerics have asked for any information on the skills.

neuroguy

Azherae wrote: »

I'm trying to tell you that 'Knowing what Cleric skills do' is MUCH less important to a Cleric than what they showed. I cannot 'read a list of skills for the healer in an MMO' and get any ideas about how it works at ALL. I need what I was given to know if I want to play it or not.

That's all I have to say, I guess. You can consider the point 'conceded' in whatever way is required.

I will hope that Steven and the guys know why I am thankful, and if it was intentional, then this conversation is me 'being supportive of their intention'. I can only be encouraging in feedback of what I benefit from.

I think I get what you're trying to say, that it was a good showcase of cleric gameplay (I think @CoopTroop said it very nicely). I still would push back that the focus of the stream was more than just this and it could have achieved both this and clear explanation of the other stuff that you already agreed had very little explained.

But keep in mind, this is low lvl cleric gameplay and some people in their feedback have already said they are disappointed in how wack-a-mole it is. It felt very much like WoW to me from watching but we know they explicitly want to make things more interesting than that. So to me, I think this is absolutely not representative of what to expect from cleric gameplay in the final version of the game. I think the details of how conviction works for example is far more important than seeing lvl 14 cleric gameplay for 40 minutes.

Would it not be nice for example then, if they said this is a showcase of cleric gameplay so people would know if this is something they want feedback on? That they want this to be representative of cleric gameplay? Or that it is NOT representative? The fact that I can validly argue that this showcase is not representative of cleric gameplay and neither of us can definitively prove the other wrong with a quote or a timestamp is illustrative of my point.

I want to make sure it is clear that I very much appreciate Steven and the work of all of the devs. I am providing constructive feedback on an anomaly of a dev update.

Arya_Yeshe

I liked the stream because it showed an adventure, the stream showed how adventuring is feeling right now and it showed a few new things

Maybe people didn't think the stream was great because in general the average AoC stream is off the charts and follows a rigid script

A rigid script is a good thing in a stream, today's stream was more fluid more "stream and chill" vibes

Ludullu

I can definitely agree that I'd like these videos to be better structured. I definitely understand Azherae's point of "having a feel of what the gameplay might be", but I definitely agree with neuro that the "feeling" part of the video could've come after just even a brief explanation of the things that we'd see during that part.

I think Steven did try to show off a bit of stuff all at the same time, cause he was hovering over some skills at the start, he showed off the tree gathering (as a clickbait for the previous stream), tried to show off the constellations (which definitely took a bit too much time) and then went through a few mechanics.

But all of that was jumbled up with small talk with the devs, general gameplay that required attention and Steven's innate sporadic attention span and trains of thought.

I'd prefer if they just did a quick intro of the video and devs, quickly explained the immediately stuff shown to us in the video (that is the cleric and its new abilities) and then went onto showing off that stuff in practical use. Because trying to explain some abilities while executing them at the same time and trying to play the game too requires a particular set of skills, which I think most devs don't have (hell, even most streamers don't have it).

And while the more attentive and analytically-brained people like Azherae would have no issues processing all the things we saw in that video, I think that Intrepid would benefit from, well, dumbing it down a bit and being way more clear with their explanations. In other words, combine this stream with the ranger's showcase and find a middle ground between the two and you'd be golden (imo).

neuroguy

GrandSerpent wrote: »

Yet oddly, none of the clerics have asked for any information on the skills.

Hmm, well why don't you and all the other clerics tell me exactly how conviction works. Just because you don't ask doesn't mean you understand or that it was clearly explained. Ultimately though, I think as many people have mentioned already, they got a 'feel' for the cleric which is sufficient for them and that's fine. I'm not trying to convince people they shouldn't have liked the livestream lol.

I can't emphasize this enough though, there are no clerics. Nobody is a cleric yet. The cleric they show and the one we will play at launch are not guaranteed to be the same.

But the cleric stuff is a very small part of the lack of information in this livestream. Nobody can argue that there was virtually no explanation for the constellation system, or conviction, or that the amount of time we were showed blocking and combat using maces & staffs was extremely short.

neuroguy

Anyways, I added an edit to the OP based on the discussion.

Vaknar

Just letting you all know that I've been reading through this thread and will keep my eye on it as it develops! Just wanted to stop by and say that since I've been tagged

We appreciate any and all feedback so thank you for voicing your thoughts in a constructive manner for us

StewBad

There are two types of people in the Ashes community; those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

Nerror

I wish he would have gone into a little more detail on the active blocking. It was mostly just a zoomed out "see, I can block!" and not much else other than we can parry/block with other weapons too, not just shields. It looked like it mitigated roughly half the damage. A bit more narration would have been nice I think.

NishUK

SupremeKnight wrote: »

I apologize for this but I thought the livestream was awesome - especially the combat and the graphics, which literally blows everything else I've ever seen out of the water (I've seen alot).

I apologize but your view spurs my imagination of some guy taking a hot steaming dump right in front of me.

@neuroguy the gameplay demo was unprofessional and they should reconsider both not releasing a video every single month and for Steven to commentate on it only and not play.

Dygz

I think that you have to remember that Steven is first, and foremost, a gamer.
He is a first time game dev.
What he loves to do is lead his guild in combat.
There should be no surprise that he's not adept at staying focused enough to follow the outline for a long demo, but...

I think the real takeway should be that we now need some shorter demos that focus on two or three of the topics.

My primary concern with the demo is that we already have a fairly decent understanding of Cleric.
In 5 years of development, we know next to nothing about Summoner gameplay.
We haven't seen Bard gameplay.
Seems to me more important to demo Summoner Active Skills 1-10 or even Bard Active Skills 1-10 than Cleric Active Skills 15+.

(Everyting is subject to change and there is no release date - updating to UE5.1 means there is continual scope creep - so nothing they ever show us is guaranteed to be the same by release.)

NishUK

The gameplay was very bland mechanically, much like New World and we can only hope these are very low level characters and yes @Dygz we did have an understanding of all 3 classes shown and their syngergy together was extremely bare bones.
Intreprid should care more about showing off classes and syngergies as this means so much to people gameplay wise and it was frustrating to watch such a relaxed demo with little on offer.

The worst thing from this gamestream was Steven annoucing during, that there will be active blocking+parrying for all classes but then the devs saying we're still deciding on a resource which for me brings into HUGE question the lack of care for gameplay fundamentals.
If they haven't decided on a feature that is going to be prevelant for all classes then I can see there efforts being a balancing nightmare for PvP and I can't stress enough how I hope they take gameplay more seriously otherwise I'm not looking forward to AoC for a competitive and rich PvE mechanical game.

Gui10

I felt like I was watching a noob running around.

Monthly livestreams are AWESOME and we get new info every month, which is a tough task for the team, we know! We are all so thankful for it, it gives us a lot of confidence that the game development is progressing.

However, I support the OP's opinion. If you are going to commit to monthly livestreams with in-game clips, at least organize these clips so that they give off a GOOD impression of what the gameplay is like.

Considering the dev team and Steven have said many times that "this game will not be for everyone", including "more risk that usual mmos", open-world pvp, etc, This means it is geared less towards "ultra-casual" and more towards "people who actually want to play and compete". Although there will be a place for everyone, streams like this make it feel like its going to be a game for random ultra casuals with no risk and no challenge.

This is very much different from the ranger showcase, where you were only showcasing skills one at a time. Here it was group mechanics, and therefore the party should be more organized, better positioning, etc. Things you need to do to stay alive.

I hope its not an ego thing for Steven. Its not driving me away from the game at all, but its just making these streams "MEH" instead of "YEAH".

Fantmx

It is nice to have something fresh to look at but having twelve a year means we get people complaining when one is not as "good" as the others. I am a fan of the unknown. I have more interest in a game when I don't know everything about that game two years in advance. EQ beta, EQ2 beta, WoW beta, Vanguard beta, all of these were extremely pleasurable experiences because we knew very little before getting in to test. A more modern example is Crowfall. They had frequent updates and once they went live with alpha never took the game down. Does anyone remember the fanfare for reaching beta? How about launch? I doubt it because very few people cared after seeing everything there was to see about Crowfall over a 3 to 4 year period beforehand. And now they have closed down to reevaluate their approach.

In short, I am appreciative of them doing this but I do think there is a very careful balance to be had and we as consumers should be very mindful of that.

Czeris

This stream was definitely a bit more chaotic than previous ones, but I actually enjoyed it more. Unlike previous streams, this one communicated that there was an actual game being played, which I think is important with a product that has been in development for as long as AoC has. This might not be important to people that participated in A1, who have actually played the game, but it is important for people that just became interested in AoC or who have been lazily following its development for years.

Personally I enjoy the style of update video where crumbs and hints are given and allow the player to speculate, especially when the reality is that we're not far enough in the development process for details (that are meant to be tested and changed and tested again in A2 and beyond). I know people are hungering for solid information (especially since it means we're closer to A2), but it's just not there yet.

There were quite a few tidbits that I enjoyed learning: that they're still deciding if/how to implement a stamina system (which is a really good indicator of where they are in the dev process, if basic game systems like that are still being debated), that in response to comments about how easy the gameplay is, that Steven responded by saying this is just a demo and that AoC will be on the "harder" end of the difficulty spectrum, hints of more mini-games (which tells me that there will be a variety of these and it's not just a peripheral system), that global systems like Constellations and damage types will affect gameplay, and a lot more.

I would recommend a second watch-through, since there were a lot of tiny comments that hint at much bigger systems.

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