CORRUPTION/OUTDOOR SYSTEM/PVP

CORRAPT/OUTDOOR SYSTEM
Hello friends!
I congratulate everyone on the upcoming New Year.
I want to wish that it would be productive for each of you.
And for our new favorite game, which should move the MMO RGP games to a new level of development!

I have always been a pvp player.
Arenas, battle grounds and world pvp.
I especially like outdoor in games.
And what I was able to find out about the outdoors here looks a little scary.
First of all, the corruption system worries me.
I know the Creative Director calls it a risk.
But it looks like a punishment.

There are also debuffs that are hung on the player, because of which you can lose your equipment!
I can understand the loss of my resources, but equipment...
I think it's overkill.

If the devs don't like outdoor (I kill whoever I want) so much and want to turn the game into a place for noble maidens, good fairies and noble knights who only fight those who are ready to fight, then why give the opportunity to gank at all?

It's easier to just add something like war mode.
And then no one will be able to touch pve players, because the punishments for killing them outweigh the pros.

What do you all think of this?
First of all, I appeal to fans of pvp and outdoor.
Let's strike while the "iron" is hot.

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Comments

Strevi

NiKr wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

I hope those PvE dungeons will not be private and allow trains.

At least a few will definitely require a group and maybe even a raid. But if you mean that some rando could enter your instanced dungeon, then I'm pretty sure that the dungeon being instanced is literally meant to prevent that from happening.

Instances are not necessarily meant to prevent others entering. Maybe that is how modern MMOs are now. But in the past, instances just ensured a certain density of players and probably reduced load related to rendering unnecessary open world assets.

Songcaller

The instances are protective pve zones. They would be open world like the rest if the distinction was none existent. I think a lot of lore quests will have instances. There is not a lot of high end instances to prevent resource gathering without risk.

Strevi

Dygz wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

If they would add an area where only PvE-ers can enter, will you be satisfied?

I mean, that's gonna be the 20% of dungeons. Instanced content is pve-only (well, outside of arenas obviously and potentially castle sieges).

I don't think those dungeons count as an "area".

dungeon = jail

move inside!

Ludullu

Strevi wrote: »

Instances are not necessarily meant to prevent others entering. Maybe that is how modern MMOs are now. But in the past, instances just ensured a certain density of players and probably reduced load related to rendering unnecessary open world assets.

Unless wow classic completely changed the mechanic or unless I somehow never heard of it, I think even wow's instanced dungeons didn't let anyone else in to your group's/raid's dungeon. And that was almost 20 years ago now, so I dunno.

Solvryn

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes is not designed for PvEers. Ashes is designed for hardcore PvPers.
I am a PvEer who likes PvP sometimes, but, I don't play hardcore PvP games - like Ashes.
Again, for Ashes, PvX just means that the PvPers who choose to play Ashes will have to do some PvE to progress their Adventure levels.

I mean, Mortal Online 2 is hardcore PvP. Ashes def just PvX.

Strevi

I have no good reply anymore

Dygz

Solvryn wrote: »

I mean, Mortal Online 2 is more hardcore than Ashes.

There. I fixed it for you.
Yes.

Solvryn

Dygz wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I mean, Mortal Online 2 is more hardcore than Ashes.

There. I fixed it for you.
Yes.

MMOs are a lot different to think about when full loot is the default.

If hardcore you mean a grinder and something time-consuming sure.

But PvP pressure wise, eh nothing really comes close to full loot.

Dygz

I don't agree that MMORPGs are a lot different to think about when full loot is the default.
Somewhat different. Sure. OK.
By hardcore, I mean highly competitive with other gamers and a focus on risk/reward - rather than casual and chill: Hardcore Challenge v Casual Challenge.
Hardcore Time v Casual Time is a different spectrum.

My playstyle is Casual Challenge/Hardcore Time.
We agree that full loot is more hardcore challenge than partial loot.
That doesn't negate anything I said.

novercalis

Strevi wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

I hope those PvE dungeons will not be private and allow trains.

At least a few will definitely require a group and maybe even a raid. But if you mean that some rando could enter your instanced dungeon, then I'm pretty sure that the dungeon being instanced is literally meant to prevent that from happening.

Instances are not necessarily meant to prevent others entering. Maybe that is how modern MMOs are now. But in the past, instances just ensured a certain density of players and probably reduced load related to rendering unnecessary open world assets.

nah - Instance was a way to ensure all players have access to content/loot.

WoW and it's carebears found Everquest to be extremely hard and punishing.
Shared Dungeons couldnt fit the entire server in, so the first 20-25 groups of 6 were able to secure a camp and lock it down. Some dungeons were small (Befallen) that only 10 groups can lock it down. Dungeons contained great gears, so it was a waiting game to enter a camp.

Higher end dungeon ended in dispute, pvp if on a pvp server or contesting the mob in a DPS race. Running trains to wipe a group out, to take control of the camp - at times, both parties fail and creates a massive train that would wipe out other multiple groups/players in the dungeon as everyone needed to run out of the zone or die from a giant train. (Mistimoore Castle anyone?)

So WoW created instance, everything for everyone, no contesting, no pvping, no player gating other players - you get a loot, you get a loot, you get a loot - everyone gets to see content!
Ashes going to it's root - only the best will raid, others will never get to see some content, it's either gonna get locked down and gated by neckbeard individuals or guilds. Poopsockers - it's an eq term and it will be a part of ashes terminology.

Strevi

Why those shared dungeons were not instanced to allow more groups?

I hope leveling up will not consist only in doing quests but also free fight with NPCs to farm drops.

So I assume there will be dungeons intended for players who rolled a new character, either an alt or they joined the server (1 year after launch)

How will such dungeons function?
Will high level players come and interfere?
Private instances are boring but shared ones cannot function with very high level players.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Why those shared dungeons were not instanced to allow more groups?

I hope leveling up will not consist only in doing quests but also free fight with NPCs to farm drops.

So I assume there will be dungeons intended for players who rolled a new character, either an alt or they joined the server (1 year after launch)

How will such dungeons function?
Will high level players come and interfere?
Private instances are boring but shared ones cannot function with very high level players.

Note: I have NO idea if this is what novercalis is talking about, but I have a similar data point.

There are only so many 'camps' in a dungeon. As games get bigger, the problem's been reduced, but definitely there could be a point where there wouldn't be enough mobs respawning fast enough to support more than 6 full parties playing well. You could cram more people in, but it would just be conflict.

The only solutions to THIS are to make the dungeon bigger or to cram it with more mobs. Because of the mechanics of mobs in some games, you make the experience worse if you do the second.

So, it's not a matter of 'the game doesn't allow this many players into the area', it's that the world design only supports 30-50 players in one area trying to fight the same mobs.

Dygz

I would say that EQ players found WoW to be eaiser to play on a variety of levels.
The quality of life issues for me were more seamless zoning, fewer invisible walls and way less time when we did have to load into zones. I continue to alternate playing both right up until 2010.

WoW has PvP servers and PvP-Optional servers - just like EQ.
But... just like EQ... PvP is mostly an afterthought for the development of these games.
PvE mechanics have primacy over PvP features first.

In Ashes, it will be that no one gets to see all content.
In a variety of ways besides just raids and dungeons. Because Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game, where everyone can have the same experiences.

Ashes isn't going all the way back to EQ roots.
Ashes won't have corpse runs or full loot... etc.

Songcaller

I hope for open world dungeons to be better than instances dungeons. Open world dungeons should have a higher refresh rate, more competition and pvx options (I love pvp with pve mobs entangled).

Strevi

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Why those shared dungeons were not instanced to allow more groups?

I hope leveling up will not consist only in doing quests but also free fight with NPCs to farm drops.

So I assume there will be dungeons intended for players who rolled a new character, either an alt or they joined the server (1 year after launch)

How will such dungeons function?
Will high level players come and interfere?
Private instances are boring but shared ones cannot function with very high level players.

Note: I have NO idea if this is what novercalis is talking about, but I have a similar data point.

There are only so many 'camps' in a dungeon. As games get bigger, the problem's been reduced, but definitely there could be a point where there wouldn't be enough mobs respawning fast enough to support more than 6 full parties playing well. You could cram more people in, but it would just be conflict.

The only solutions to THIS are to make the dungeon bigger or to cram it with more mobs. Because of the mechanics of mobs in some games, you make the experience worse if you do the second.

So, it's not a matter of 'the game doesn't allow this many players into the area', it's that the world design only supports 30-50 players in one area trying to fight the same mobs.

Why not create a 2nd instance when the first is full?
On max level PvP dungeons I find acceptable to have only one space, in the open world.

But low level dungeons, if they will exist, could be instanced without being private.

Azherae

Strevi wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

Why those shared dungeons were not instanced to allow more groups?

I hope leveling up will not consist only in doing quests but also free fight with NPCs to farm drops.

So I assume there will be dungeons intended for players who rolled a new character, either an alt or they joined the server (1 year after launch)

How will such dungeons function?
Will high level players come and interfere?
Private instances are boring but shared ones cannot function with very high level players.

Note: I have NO idea if this is what novercalis is talking about, but I have a similar data point.

There are only so many 'camps' in a dungeon. As games get bigger, the problem's been reduced, but definitely there could be a point where there wouldn't be enough mobs respawning fast enough to support more than 6 full parties playing well. You could cram more people in, but it would just be conflict.

The only solutions to THIS are to make the dungeon bigger or to cram it with more mobs. Because of the mechanics of mobs in some games, you make the experience worse if you do the second.

So, it's not a matter of 'the game doesn't allow this many players into the area', it's that the world design only supports 30-50 players in one area trying to fight the same mobs.

Why not create a 2nd instance when the first is full?
On max level PvP dungeons I find acceptable to have only one space, in the open world.

But low level dungeons, if they will exist, could be instanced without being private.

Firstly, one has no real way to tell what 'full' is.

Secondly, we're talking about the games 'before' WoW that didn't instance things at all. They had 'zone lines' but not 'instances'. Since 'elites' also spawn in the open world, you wouldn't want people to have a way to manipulate 'having two spawns of them', for example.

Songcaller

UO created instances due to this exact issue. Uo created the concept. You can have an instance stack quite easily. Whether the devs want these 'instances' to be more than private is the prerogative of the dev team.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

So, it's not a matter of 'the game doesn't allow this many players into the area', it's that the world design only supports 30-50 players in one area trying to fight the same mobs.

I posted this before, but here's a map of a single dungeon from L2 that supported 50 farming spots, some of them for small groups and most for full ones. I expect each metro to have at least 3 of these tied to them. That'd be 15 huge dungeons for top lvl players.

Even if we assume just 20 rooms instead of 50 spots, that's ~1/5 of a full server all farming at the same time at max lvl around just 5 nodes. Then we add another 10-20 lower lvl dungeons with a few top lvl rooms at the very end of the dungeon and you have yourself enough space for probably another 2-3/5 of the server. And everyone else would probably be doing artisanal stuff or doing solo content in the overworld, or RP wherever.

And the new huge map seems to support this kind of size and we know for sure that Steven loved the dungeon that I posted and that alpha1 volcano dungeon looked somewhat big.

So I'd say that at this point it's all about having great combat and amazing mobs that would occupy the attention of a full party for enough time that they don't go to other rooms every minute.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

So, it's not a matter of 'the game doesn't allow this many players into the area', it's that the world design only supports 30-50 players in one area trying to fight the same mobs.

I posted this before, but here's a map of a single dungeon from L2 that supported 50 farming spots, some of them for small groups and most for full ones. I expect each metro to have at least 3 of these tied to them. That'd be 15 huge dungeons for top lvl players.

Even if we assume just 20 rooms instead of 50 spots, that's ~1/5 of a full server all farming at the same time at max lvl around just 5 nodes. Then we add another 10-20 lower lvl dungeons with a few top lvl rooms at the very end of the dungeon and you have yourself enough space for probably another 2-3/5 of the server. And everyone else would probably be doing artisanal stuff or doing solo content in the overworld, or RP wherever.

And the new huge map seems to support this kind of size and we know for sure that Steven loved the dungeon that I posted and that alpha1 volcano dungeon looked somewhat big.

So I'd say that at this point it's all about having great combat and amazing mobs that would occupy the attention of a full party for enough time that they don't go to other rooms every minute.

I absolutely would not expect this to be a 'real' problem in any of the current generation of MMOs unless the mobs are super squishy 'PvE-lite' pinatas there to be something to conflict over.

I don't think instances are required at all, except for exactly the reason novercalis said.

Instances are so that 'everyone can get loot', in this era. Where in this case we are talking about 'material drops from elites', let's say, in Ashes.

They are there so that you can log in with the intention 'I'm gonna get the gang together and go fight exactly this and get this exact loot if it drops and no one can stop us and we won't have to have any other experiences'.

No worrying that 'the boss was just killed before you got there'. No worrying about 'meeting a higher level soloer farming the mobs just fast enough to mess up your perfect 'rotation'. No friction or frustrations.

Not Ashes.

Dygz

Well, in Ashes, instances are supposed to be about story/lore completion.
Loot will be a by-product of that, sure.

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