NiKr wrote: » Neurath wrote: » I'm just not sure where the devs stand on the matter after the oe thread. I'm 95% sure that even if Ashes did in fact have full destruction before - it no longer does. It'd have to be parsed, but from what I remember of the thread, probably around 70-80% of the posters there HATED destruction. Might've been even more, but that's might just be my bias speaking, cause every time I'd see one of those posts this'd be me
Neurath wrote: » I'm just not sure where the devs stand on the matter after the oe thread.
Azherae wrote: » 84% as of my offhand recollection of non-targeted parse (sentiment only).
Neurath wrote: » Sometimes I lament Jeff's policies and sometimes I'm happy Jeff left. Oe destruction was definitely a thing but the safe limits also existed. I don't really see a reason to change the facet but I feel that way when a lot of dev threads are opened. In my mind, a lot of stuff should have remained at the original disposition. More than could be stated comes from l2 and thankfully the craft system comes from swg. I first got into aoc due to the links stated but naturally the playerbase has expanded across the years. When I first bought in I thought the game would launch by 2020 lol.
Azherae wrote: » Neurath wrote: » Bdo has burnt many people out since l2. It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about. BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr. I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better).
Neurath wrote: » Bdo has burnt many people out since l2.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Neurath wrote: » Bdo has burnt many people out since l2. It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about. BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr. I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better). It is, it certainly is! The absolute majority of people in that thread used mainly BDO as the source of their hatred towards the concept of over enchanting. I'm not sure about "safer/easier" tho, BDO had direct diminishing chances the higher you went reaching insanely low less than 1% chances of sucess making some people frustratingly fail the same enchant more than 100 times, instead of the consistent ~66% chance L2 had no matter if it was +5 to +6 or +15 to +16. Sure it made people want to have a security extra item because of the destruction on fail(of low tier enchant)(or to go to 0 with the higher tier one instead) but you always had a reasonable odd not matter how. Certainly other games have fault in the current over enchanting demonization but BDO is a huge culprit in this regard.
Neurath wrote: » Yes. That is still the original stance. I would not be so quick to state oe destruction won't happen. There was always a safe enchantment level.
Azherae wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Neurath wrote: » Bdo has burnt many people out since l2. It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about. BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr. I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better). It is, it certainly is! The absolute majority of people in that thread used mainly BDO as the source of their hatred towards the concept of over enchanting. I'm not sure about "safer/easier" tho, BDO had direct diminishing chances the higher you went reaching insanely low less than 1% chances of sucess making some people frustratingly fail the same enchant more than 100 times, instead of the consistent ~66% chance L2 had no matter if it was +5 to +6 or +15 to +16. Sure it made people want to have a security extra item because of the destruction on fail(of low tier enchant)(or to go to 0 with the higher tier one instead) but you always had a reasonable odd not matter how. Certainly other games have fault in the current over enchanting demonization but BDO is a huge culprit in this regard. Oh, then um... you're wrong. No one's going to change their opinion based on seeing L2's system if they come from BDO's system because L2's system is way more frustrating. They would just hate it more. So yes, all those people absolutely hate even the form of OE that you're saying is fine. It's just a really hated mechanic. But this is based on the info I found, which implies that it is NOT actually consistently 66% chance across all those, so I'd have to know 'at what point that changed' or 'what server you played on', or whatever else. As I understand it, you have 66% chance that you succeed, but 33% chance that the item is DESTROYED, (ignore options to mitigate this because BDO has many). Statistical distribution based on these indicate that L2 is worse. It might be MISLEADING in terms of the emotions it causes, but it's worse. I welcome more information on it, but please note that I'm likely to be skeptical that L2 is particularly more forgiving. I've seen threads of people complaining about 'seeing three +16s in one day' as if the person achieving this was outright cheating. Maybe, once again, another private server.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Azherae wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Neurath wrote: » Bdo has burnt many people out since l2. It is unlikely that BDO is the culprit in the case James is talking about. BDO enchanting is always safer/easier than L2. I've had to research this extensively while 'arguing' with James and NiKr. I don't doubt that some games out there have made the people James is talking about have a stronger dislike for OE, but BDO is not it (in the sense that if people don't like BDO's system, they are not going to like L2's better). It is, it certainly is! The absolute majority of people in that thread used mainly BDO as the source of their hatred towards the concept of over enchanting. I'm not sure about "safer/easier" tho, BDO had direct diminishing chances the higher you went reaching insanely low less than 1% chances of sucess making some people frustratingly fail the same enchant more than 100 times, instead of the consistent ~66% chance L2 had no matter if it was +5 to +6 or +15 to +16. Sure it made people want to have a security extra item because of the destruction on fail(of low tier enchant)(or to go to 0 with the higher tier one instead) but you always had a reasonable odd not matter how. Certainly other games have fault in the current over enchanting demonization but BDO is a huge culprit in this regard. Oh, then um... you're wrong. No one's going to change their opinion based on seeing L2's system if they come from BDO's system because L2's system is way more frustrating. They would just hate it more. So yes, all those people absolutely hate even the form of OE that you're saying is fine. It's just a really hated mechanic. But this is based on the info I found, which implies that it is NOT actually consistently 66% chance across all those, so I'd have to know 'at what point that changed' or 'what server you played on', or whatever else. As I understand it, you have 66% chance that you succeed, but 33% chance that the item is DESTROYED, (ignore options to mitigate this because BDO has many). Statistical distribution based on these indicate that L2 is worse. It might be MISLEADING in terms of the emotions it causes, but it's worse. I welcome more information on it, but please note that I'm likely to be skeptical that L2 is particularly more forgiving. I've seen threads of people complaining about 'seeing three +16s in one day' as if the person achieving this was outright cheating. Maybe, once again, another private server. I see, you assume that without ever having experienced/tested it, a bit unexpected i suppose. Just out of curiosity, do you believe more people that played lineage 2 hated its over enchant or more people that played BDO hated its over enchant? I would like to clarify that whenever i speak about Lineage 2 i'm refering to the official server with accuracy unless i state otherwise, Before the implementation of Destruction Enchant Scroll that maintained the same enchant level even on failure(i know very fitting name) in the High Five Version(1 version before 2011 F2P apocalypse) Lineage 2 maintained a consistent ~66% chance , after the implementation of the destruction scrolls diminishing chances were applied. Private servers are irrelevant in this discussion.
Azherae wrote: » But BDO players hate 'having to jump through hoops to get around the RNG', so the result would be the same.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » But BDO players hate 'having to jump through hoops to get around the RNG', so the result would be the same. How much of a necessity for pvp (or maybe even pve) was the BDO's enchantment system? Cause in most cases in L2, the top lvl weapon that was over +10 was a godlike thing that barely anyone saw with their own eyes. And even those usually came from thousands of man (or bot) hours grinding the game and funneling it all into one player. But even against that +10, if you had a +3-5 weapon (usually achieved with super rare safe scrolls that didn't destroy the weapon) you were a mere few % lower in overall dps. And obviously, class matchups either leveled out the field even more or even sometimes superseded the difference completely. From what I've seen/heard in BDO, it seemed as if a single full circle lvl of enchantment over your opponent would almost always make you win the pvp. Did I misunderstand that or is it just "more than one lvl"?
Neurath wrote: » To explain the situation. A top level evasion build on any class couldn't be struck by anything less than an equal in bdo. Thus, the parameters are the same in l2 and bdo but the methodologies are different.
Azherae wrote: » It's a long explanation, technically, short version is that the way BDO's COMBAT works, PvP is decided by relatively small differences in attack values except in Node Wars and such. BDO's design combat wise is much worse than L2 in certain spaces, and that's just the little I know about. I am reasonably certain that the 'strength' issue is NOT the thing that causes the "no-RNG!!" reaction though, as it is almost always discussed in a vacuum, and most of the players who have complained about it only talk about loss of Progression/unequal Progression pathing. Basically the whole 'Effort -> RNG = ???' part.
Azherae wrote: » Now just hold on because you are becoming defensive/slightly insulting and I am NOT in the mood for that. So let's try again. I just gave the numbers. I am telling you that statistically, BDO is kinder than L2. BDO players are not going to have a better experience in L2 if the thing they are concerned about is practically the only thing there is to be concerned about, achieving their item without losing progress. This isn't even my concern. I was trying to 'help' by clarifying to you why there is pushback. If you prefer to 'just believe that everyone who has this opinion just doesn't know the real story/didn't experience it', that's fine, but don't go making it out to be that I just 'felt like it'. I think I can say with some certainty that I'm not going to like a statistically MORE PUNISHING system better just because of that. Again. 66% 12 times is 0.6% and I can find no indication that this is easier to 'escape' from dealing with than it is in BDO. I'm happy to disengage here if we're about to 'argue again' as I'm not interested in doing so at all. If you don't want the 'help' or don't consider what I'm saying 'meaningful'/'helpful', let's just drop it.
NiKr wrote: » Neurath wrote: » To explain the situation. A top level evasion build on any class couldn't be struck by anything less than an equal in bdo. Thus, the parameters are the same in l2 and bdo but the methodologies are different. Azherae wrote: » It's a long explanation, technically, short version is that the way BDO's COMBAT works, PvP is decided by relatively small differences in attack values except in Node Wars and such. BDO's design combat wise is much worse than L2 in certain spaces, and that's just the little I know about. I am reasonably certain that the 'strength' issue is NOT the thing that causes the "no-RNG!!" reaction though, as it is almost always discussed in a vacuum, and most of the players who have complained about it only talk about loss of Progression/unequal Progression pathing. Basically the whole 'Effort -> RNG = ???' part. But now a question though. Do you really think that people (completely normal non-techminded people) can divorce the thought of "I need this thing to be +10 and not +9, otherwise I fucking die in each fight" from the "in order to get to +10 I need to go through several levels of rng and overpreparedness, all of which is shit"? In other words, could there be a chance that people were hating the OE system in BDO because it was one of the main hurdles in their characters progression, while in L2 (even if it's statistically worse) the OE only brought you ever so closer to the absolute ideal of the character rather than a pure requirement for existence? Imo it's the difference of "I fucking need this" and "Look at the cool thing I've got, dude!". And even if the proper math leans toward the BDO's system, the design of the game obfuscates that advantage. Especially when you consider that most BDO players probably couldn't give fewer fucks about what kind of system a random click-to-move game from 2004 had My point here is this. I think people would be fine with failed OEs destroying gear, if they knew that they didn't truly need that OE. And that can be done through proper gear balancing layered on top of proper class balancing which stands on a good combat system base.
