Concerns with in game economy

So AoC is very much an player run economy from everything i see in regards with there emphasis on crafters which has a potential to stagnate and crash markets when majority of players hit there BIS items lets take new world tools for example when people got there tool they never needed to buy anymore since there no decay on equipment so once every player got there ori tool for example the toolcrafter were now obsolete cause no one will ever purchase a tool again since they got there max level tool for life so generaly in games the only crafters that ended up being needed were the cooks and alchemist because once people bought ur non consumable items they were no longer a customer for you since they were set for rest of game or till next expansion.

So for a player run economy to thrive there need to be equipment decay so there was always a demand for equipment, from my understanding AoC going with a repair system that requires materials to repair items however these items will most likly come from processing not the equipment crafters themself so theyll fall in same issue of being obsolete or hard to find customers for there goods, now you could make repairs kits on the crafters themself which is an improvment but then you basicly only be crafting repair kits to sell instead of armor cause do demand for the armor.

The normal solution to games that have a working player economy is to have easy come easy go system where you have gear eventually be destroyed but fairly easy to make so you keep constant demand but that wont work with AoC since it seems gear gonna be a decent time investment to aquire higher quality stuff coming from drops from raid bosses and things where people wont wont to use that gear over fear of loosing it.

I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though.

Generaly in MMO you only make money crafting initially and it a race to level up because u know once people out level ur crafted items u loose all sales on that in new world i rushed tools and sold shit loads early on buit after a week they never sold again cause people level past those and people to slow leveling the craft basicly just lost money due to already being obsolete for the entire time.

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Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

It's a perfect model for studying 'how to ruin the MMO part of an MMO, having started with an actual MMO'.

Yeah, it definitely sounds atrocious

In a way I'm still happy that the game didn't hook me strongly enough back when it was releasing. While I'm sure that I'd enjoy quite a few parts of it, experiencing yet another mmo ruined by its devs would've been devastating for me and I don't think I've heard about BDO private servers (though I haven't really looked into it), so I'm not sure if I could repeat the L2's cycle with BDO.

I hope we hear more about crafting in ashes (the more system scale, rather than "well, you can hit a piece of metal instead of just hitting a button"). Pretty much the entire economy will revolve around it, so that information would be highly appreciated. And I want it for selfish reasons too, cause I wanna be a crafter

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

It's a perfect model for studying 'how to ruin the MMO part of an MMO, having started with an actual MMO'.

Yeah, it definitely sounds atrocious In a way I'm still happy that the game didn't hook me strongly enough back when it was releasing. While I'm sure that I'd enjoy quite a few parts of it, experiencing yet another mmo ruined by its devs would've been devastating for me and I don't think I've heard about BDO private servers (though I haven't really looked into it), so I'm not sure if I could repeat the L2's cycle with BDO.

I hope we hear more about crafting in ashes (the more system scale, rather than "well, you can hit a piece of metal instead of just hitting a button"). Pretty much the entire economy will revolve around it, so that information would be highly appreciated. And I want it for selfish reasons too, cause I wanna be a crafter

Following briefly on from the useful part of all that then, let's discuss that helmet and see how you feel about it.

I am literally now in the city, looking at these 5 completed Zereth Helms (unenchanted base).

I have in my inventory a +12 Zereth Helmet (think... +5 or so equivalent, BDO Safe Enchant on armor goes up to +5 and the +6 is at L2 odds or better).

Just a moment ago it was at +10, I tried to enhance it a few times from near-full max durability (90 of 100) and I got... 2 successes (back to back, at 13% odds and 11% odds respectively, go me) and 10 failures, each of which cost 5 durability.

I now need 6 unenchanted base Zereth Helms to repair this to 100% durability. (there's another method to get 5x more with a single helm from a different item). If this game had actual crafting in it, I'd have 'asked you to make me 6 Helms' (or more) so I could keep trying to enhance this helmet.

There are currently 19 on the Market. If it wasn't a loss to make these (at the MOMENT it might actually not be, but it usually is) someone out there would be getting to actually play the crafting part of this game (if there was one).

Translate to Ashes. To me this is sufficient. I want to keep TRYING my enhancements, so I need more helmets. In this sense it is what you are used to. If I get it to the point where it loses enhancement levels too, then I continue to need items for as long as I keep trying.

I already have a TET Zereth Helmet. I'm doing this so I have a SECOND, so that I can poke at PEN Zereth. Every time I do that, I will EITHER:

Lose 1 level, then have to raise it back to TET, using more of 'your' Zereth Helmets'.

OR:

Spend the 'no delevels' items, so that I don't have to worry about that, but still need more Zereth Helmets.

In both cases, you are crafting, and I am buying.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

In both cases, you are crafting, and I am buying.

Yep, to me that sounds pretty much perfect. So as long as this interaction can be upheld, while somehow removing that rng part of the equation that seems to be feeding this interaction - I think the biggest amount of people would be satisfied. And if the enhancement method is tied to the system too - even better. Iirc that's already planned to be the case in Ashes, so as long as they deliver on that - we good.

Ludullu

I, for the life of me, couldn't remember why I think that L2's armor had 55% chance to successfully OE, but I found this graph which I think is truthful.

So, if all gear in BDO has the same chances - it's even better than L2. I know we're past this, but it was bugging my damn mind and I decided to just provide some additional data, if you ever need it.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

In both cases, you are crafting, and I am buying.

Yep, to me that sounds pretty much perfect. So as long as this interaction can be upheld, while somehow removing that rng part of the equation that seems to be feeding this interaction - I think the biggest amount of people would be satisfied. And if the enhancement method is tied to the system too - even better. Iirc that's already planned to be the case in Ashes, so as long as they deliver on that - we good.

For clarity, I don't actually care about the RNG being removed (this is why I was suspicious that people cared about OE Item destruction because of the BDO system specifically other than maybe 'imagining BDO but with destruction).

I definitely don't like it and many subparts are annoying, but those subparts are actually very easy to work past, games just never DO that because... reasons.

Guaranteed Enhancement for certain tiers of gear in BDO is possible. It normally takes out a 30% durability chunk (3 more Helmets plz) and about 5x the required enhancement items.

BDO doesn't fix their broken parts because the broken parts are now 'part of the game's structure', no matter how hard the Lead Designer works to fix them, someone, probably in corporate, always negates what he does within 2 updates. It's painful to watch, as I've said.

We just need to make sure Ashes doesn't let its 'unnecessary broken parts' get entrenched into core systems, and I am sure Intrepid is counting on us for exactly that.

So if it's me deciding, and you say "I think we need the RNG or something similar so that the demand doesn't eventually dry up", definitely keeping the RNG. I'll just assume for now that you are okay with what Ashes currently proposes (relative to what I've discussed from the BDO side). Durability loss with new item requirement.

I personally hope it isn't so simplistic, but I want to see what they come up with, without building up any biases towards 'my own approaches'.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

So if it's me deciding, and you say "I think we need the RNG or something similar so that the demand doesn't eventually dry up", definitely keeping the RNG. I'll just assume for now that you are okay with what Ashes currently proposes (relative to what I've discussed from the BDO side). Durability loss with new item requirement.

I personally hope it isn't so simplistic, but I want to see what they come up with, without building up any biases towards 'my own approaches'.

Yep, that's my current stance as well and pretty much the realization I came to by the end of my thread suggesting a different crafting/enchantment system.

I'll be even more fine with the currently planned system if they manage to keep the inflow of mats on the lower side of the spectrum. I'm sure that a ton of people will complain, but that's a whole other discussion for a whole other day.

JamesSunderland

NiKr wrote: »

I, for the life of me, couldn't remember why I think that L2's armor had 55% chance to successfully OE, but I found this graph with I think it truthful.

This is one is truthful, it's just post cap implementation(2011).
Its most likely reflective of the Live-Classic(2016) versions onwards.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

I, for the life of me, couldn't remember why I think that L2's armor had 55% chance to successfully OE, but I found this graph with I think it truthful.

So, if all gear in BDO has the same chances - it's even better than L2. I know we're past this, but it was bugging my damn mind and I decided to just provide some additional data, if you ever need it.

It's complicated as usual. Probably not worth addressing in general, and since I believe James was always saying that things were better before, this is meaningful only as it pertains to one question which I will direct at @JamesSunderland specifically.

Why on earth would they have changed the flat 66% to all this? Should I assume this would be 'at a point where they had an item to prevent the item being destroyed'?

This is also what I found, and ALSO that they didn't add 'item delevel', the Scroll was just difficult to get. But that is a thing I cannot confirm fully without you, I believe you said.

@NiKr, basically this looks ALMOST like:

"BDO copied L2's numbers for certain things." / "L2 changed to BDO numbers." / "The Secret Cabal of MMOligarchs that control our fates decided that this is what we get now."

I'm betting on the third, those guys are scary.

EDIT: To clarify, as you probably saw from the chart, BDO numbers look like the 'Armor Upgrade' numbers from this table, generally, though all in all, they make you 'learn the precise values for each grade of gear and in some cases type'.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I'm betting on the third, those guys are scary.

Yeah, I'm almost sure it's the third. Especially when it comes to all korean games

JamesSunderland

Azherae wrote: »

Why on earth would they have changed the flat 66% to all this? Should I assume this would be 'at a point where they had an item to prevent the item being destroyed'?

This is also what I found, and ALSO that they didn't add 'item delevel', the Scroll was just difficult to get. But that is a thing I cannot confirm fully without you, I believe you said.

Basically, straight up cash and cash event, the cap implementation and 1st enchant rates modification, aligns very near the moment NCsoft started its P2W savagery and right after implemented GoD version turning Lineage 2 F2P,
in this moment we saw NCsoft adding things like chance improvement items straight up in the cash shop(they existed before but on non-P2W events) aswell as the Enchant scroll that did no break the item and maintained the enchant if you failed, you could also get the scroll from a few bosses but the chances were ridiculously low.

It motivated some cashed up maniac whales to over enchant Top-Grade S86(strongest H5 version weapons) to +16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqooTFII1k

Myosotys

Veeshan wrote: »

So AoC is very much an player run economy from everything i see in regards with there emphasis on crafters which has a potential to stagnate and crash markets when majority of players hit there BIS items lets take new world tools for example when people got there tool they never needed to buy anymore since there no decay on equipment so once every player got there ori tool for example the toolcrafter were now obsolete cause no one will ever purchase a tool again since they got there max level tool for life so generaly in games the only crafters that ended up being needed were the cooks and alchemist because once people bought ur non consumable items they were no longer a customer for you since they were set for rest of game or till next expansion.

So for a player run economy to thrive there need to be equipment decay so there was always a demand for equipment, from my understanding AoC going with a repair system that requires materials to repair items however these items will most likly come from processing not the equipment crafters themself so theyll fall in same issue of being obsolete or hard to find customers for there goods, now you could make repairs kits on the crafters themself which is an improvment but then you basicly only be crafting repair kits to sell instead of armor cause do demand for the armor.

The normal solution to games that have a working player economy is to have easy come easy go system where you have gear eventually be destroyed but fairly easy to make so you keep constant demand but that wont work with AoC since it seems gear gonna be a decent time investment to aquire higher quality stuff coming from drops from raid bosses and things where people wont wont to use that gear over fear of loosing it.

I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though.

Generaly in MMO you only make money crafting initially and it a race to level up because u know once people out level ur crafted items u loose all sales on that in new world i rushed tools and sold shit loads early on buit after a week they never sold again cause people level past those and people to slow leveling the craft basicly just lost money due to already being obsolete for the entire time.

You understand the problem from the wrong side :
1. If no one needs tools in NW, it is because the game died and there are not enough new players to run the economy.
2. in NW, because of full storage all the time, players sell there ingredients for free almost and it ruined the economy
3. NW is full of bots/gold sellers and that ruined also the economy
4. If you compare AOC with a super bad designed game so it is normal to have concerns.

(Or maybe something changed in NW ? Because I stopped to play in November 2021).

Azherae

JamesSunderland wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Why on earth would they have changed the flat 66% to all this? Should I assume this would be 'at a point where they had an item to prevent the item being destroyed'?

This is also what I found, and ALSO that they didn't add 'item delevel', the Scroll was just difficult to get. But that is a thing I cannot confirm fully without you, I believe you said.

Basically, straight up cash and cash event, the cap implementation and 1st enchant rates modification, aligns very near the moment NCsoft started its P2W savagery and right after implemented GoD version turning Lineage 2 F2P,
in this moment we saw NCsoft adding things like chance improvement items straight up in the cash shop(they existed before but on non-P2W events) aswell as the Enchant scroll that did no break the item and maintained the enchant if you failed, you could also get the scroll from a few bosses but the chances were ridiculously low.

It motivated some cashed up maniac whales to over enchant Top-Grade S86(strongest H5 version weapons) to +16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqooTFII1k

Thank you. Definitely the Oligarchs then.

Moreso at Intrepid:

I am completely in support of 'Enhancement Chance Improvement Scrolls/Items' dropping from bosses/events in a game where Enchanting is RNG.

I don't like when they are ABSOLUTELY universal for all items (leads to people hoarding them to use on their best gear that they 'plan to get later' and not wanting to 'waste' them on progression gear), nor when they cannot be gifted/sold on the market (limits the sort of person strong enough to GET these, into having to find a way to use them, which tends to skew poorly imo).

Oh what a wonderful flow that would be (assuming standard L2 levels of Power Growth from Vertical Enchantment).

I still hate RNG Enchanting, thank you.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I don't like when they are ABSOLUTELY universal for all items (leads to people hoarding them to use on their best gear that they 'plan to get later' and not wanting to 'waste' them on progression gear), nor when they cannot be gifted/sold on the market (limits the sort of person strong enough to GET these, into having to find a way to use them, which tends to skew poorly imo)

L2 started out really nicely, with each tier of gear having its own tier of enhancement item. Then they just fucking stopped doing that and for 5 fucking tiers you could use the same scroll. God damn korean Cabal of Oligarchs

superhero6785

I like the idea of requiring a Master Crafter to repair gear that had to be made by a Master Crafter, and that's achieved by having a craftable - consumable - "repair tool" of equal level & quality to the item. Master Crafters will always have a steady income stream selling repair tools, rather than having repair costs simply be a Gold Sink.

Similarly, this work for ships, furniture, etc. Carpenters can craft "Spare Ship Parts", "Furniture Polish" and "Upholstery Repair Kit" that can be used to repair certain items, or perhaps in the case of decorative items maybe extend their "life"? -- that's a whole side tangent I have on keeping furniture crafting relevant longterm.

Songcaller

The repairs are done at stalls and also require relevant resources.

Veeshan

Myosotys wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

So AoC is very much an player run economy from everything i see in regards with there emphasis on crafters which has a potential to stagnate and crash markets when majority of players hit there BIS items lets take new world tools for example when people got there tool they never needed to buy anymore since there no decay on equipment so once every player got there ori tool for example the toolcrafter were now obsolete cause no one will ever purchase a tool again since they got there max level tool for life so generaly in games the only crafters that ended up being needed were the cooks and alchemist because once people bought ur non consumable items they were no longer a customer for you since they were set for rest of game or till next expansion.

So for a player run economy to thrive there need to be equipment decay so there was always a demand for equipment, from my understanding AoC going with a repair system that requires materials to repair items however these items will most likly come from processing not the equipment crafters themself so theyll fall in same issue of being obsolete or hard to find customers for there goods, now you could make repairs kits on the crafters themself which is an improvment but then you basicly only be crafting repair kits to sell instead of armor cause do demand for the armor.

The normal solution to games that have a working player economy is to have easy come easy go system where you have gear eventually be destroyed but fairly easy to make so you keep constant demand but that wont work with AoC since it seems gear gonna be a decent time investment to aquire higher quality stuff coming from drops from raid bosses and things where people wont wont to use that gear over fear of loosing it.

I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though.

Generaly in MMO you only make money crafting initially and it a race to level up because u know once people out level ur crafted items u loose all sales on that in new world i rushed tools and sold shit loads early on buit after a week they never sold again cause people level past those and people to slow leveling the craft basicly just lost money due to already being obsolete for the entire time.

You understand the problem from the wrong side :
1. If no one needs tools in NW, it is because the game died and there are not enough new players to run the economy.
2. in NW, because of full storage all the time, players sell there ingredients for free almost and it ruined the economy
3. NW is full of bots/gold sellers and that ruined also the economy
4. If you compare AOC with a super bad designed game so it is normal to have concerns.

(Or maybe something changed in NW ? Because I stopped to play in November 2021).

1) New world tool crafting was dead in a less than a week of the game for 95% of tool crafters only those who kept there engineering above the main player curve could make money still, anyone who was late pretty late to the party never sold a thing or maybe sold 1 tool a week where they were selling 20 a day :P once most players hit 50 and got there ori tool the trade was done in regard to the tools, The only way that stays profitable if they were having new player join daily which 99% of games dont have that

2)new world had way to much resources entering the economy compared to being removed from it, this was due to the game was originaly gonna be open world pvp with lootable gear (i think destroyable too) but when they changed the entire aspect of the game they faield to tone down to drops on resources to accomodate the more permanent gear, which is only ever replaced on god tier RNG roll on bonuse and after that never needs replacing :P With lack of pvp around resource nodes to limited the amount resources hitting the market aswell also componds the abundance of mats compared to how many being used.

So reason for cheap resources in NW was the fact the game got changed from pvp game with gear drops into a strictly pve game with no loss of equipment while over looking the resource drop rates along with no threat to harvesting creating a scenario with a ridiculous amount of resources hitting the market with substantially less demand on what was originally expecting to occur.

3) wouldnt of been an issue if they kept with there original vision since players could police them

4) Thats what happens when they rush change a game last minute from PvP to PvE many of the aspects that need to be changed suchs as resources drop rate and economy effects get overlooked when your trying to cram what should of been 2 or so years of development shifting from pvp game to a PvE game in the last 6months or so to meet the deadline from that shift this was the main issue the plague new world release tbh, they should of kept it a pvp game or pushed back release so they had time to make it into a pve one, they should of spent that 6 months tweaking pvp to make it work over trying to change the core of the game in such little time.

Veeshan

Neurath wrote: »

The repairs are done at stalls and also require relevant resources.

problem with that is it by passes the weapon smith/armor crafters and so on since resources are from processing. Now they could make it require a blacksmith to repair but then ur in the realm of tediousness trying to find a blacksmith to repair ur items everytime. Now you could have blacksmith craft repair kits whcih get used instead of resources so u dont bypass the blacksmiths to keep them relevant however early game smith will be making armor when later on in the game they would be solely making repair kits due to much less demand on armor pieces for example. Or better you can use a system to repair a cheat plate you need another chestplate to repair it of same armor tier, this way armor smith will always have a reason to craft some armor since there catalyse to the repairing process and raid droped gear (gear that need a raid drop to craft) wil lstill be used if you can use a basic T5 crafted chest piece to repair a Raid T5 chest piece.

Gui10

It does indeed feel like having repair materials come from the Crafting tree ensures that all the previous trees (processing and gathering) also take part in the very essential economy of armor repair.

If repair can be done with only processing, that leaves crafting out of the equation... It's a whole balancing thing, it will be very hard to make each tree exactly as relevant as the others.

Songcaller

You can't just use processing because the crafters own the stalls you repair at.

novercalis

Veeshan wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

The repairs are done at stalls and also require relevant resources.

problem with that is it by passes the weapon smith/armor crafters and so on since resources are from processing. Now they could make it require a blacksmith to repair but then ur in the realm of tediousness trying to find a blacksmith to repair ur items everytime. Now you could have blacksmith craft repair kits whcih get used instead of resources so u dont bypass the blacksmiths to keep them relevant however early game smith will be making armor when later on in the game they would be solely making repair kits due to much less demand on armor pieces for example. Or better you can use a system to repair a cheat plate you need another chestplate to repair it of same armor tier, this way armor smith will always have a reason to craft some armor since there catalyse to the repairing process and raid droped gear (gear that need a raid drop to craft) wil lstill be used if you can use a basic T5 crafted chest piece to repair a Raid T5 chest piece.

that's not a problem. Go find ans hire a BS for the repair.
After all - it's still a RPG - go roleplay and find the blacksmith to repair. Tedious, annoying or not - it's a living world. Everyone always in a rush and these "downtimes" should be appreciated more. Slowing the game down is a good thing.

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