Tank Checks (Threat/Enmity)

Hi all,

I wanted to float an idea outside of the tank discussion to go a bit more in-depth into the concept of threat/enmity checks, typically in mmo's there are two main "checks" often implemented in boss mechanics those being DPS & Heal checks. Where tanks primarily deal with Tank Swaps. DPS and Heal checks are typically crucial to success and a fail will typically result in full wipes, where a failed swap will typically only results in the death of the primary tank.

Don't get me wrong I like tank swaps, I think they add a dynamic element to tank gameplay, however I'd like to see this gameplay elevated into true tank/enmity checks that have more serious ramifications from failure.

What would be threat/enmity Check look like.

Imagine a dungeon boss, about to unleash a long cast raid wide attack that will kill any of the squishier dps or cleric players. The tank has to input x amount of enmity in the cast time or have generated x amount throughout the fight, to change the attack from raid wide into a single target Tank buster that would still kill the tank without proper shields and heals applied.

Other forms of tank checks could be bosses/mobs with a "rampage mechanic" where they lose focus on the tank and target a non tank party member for, which is where defensive support skills come in, the tanks would need to apply defensive supports to the focused party member while working to take back the threat/enmity. After generating x amount you are now back as primary target. To make this have broader implications you could have the mob/boss get a buff for any player killed while rampaging.

etc. I think the concept has a lot of potential for various fight designs where they can take on their own flavour depending on the fight.

Adding dynamic events such as the ones listed above I think would elevate tank gameplay and give tank mains a true form of "skill check" as tank swaps are at least in my opinion more about giving your OTs time in the sun than truly being about testing the tanks skill or reaction time.

let me know your thoughts, do you like traditional Heal/DPS Checks? if you main tank would you like to see something similar or where do you prefer the tanking difficulty to come from? Can you think of other variants of a Threat/enmity check that you would like to see in game.

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Comments

Ludullu

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

if you main tank would you like to see something similar?

Yes.

Nova_terra

NiKr wrote: »

TheWolfofGar wrote: »

if you main tank would you like to see something similar?

Yes.

to add a bit to this as a non-tank but part of a long standing tank/healer duo. I really hope they add this level of difficulty as raids/bosses are really fun to learn in most games until the exact moment you clear it the 2nd time as it then becomes a social game where you are just hanging out farming gear. I think this would add a lot of variety in "engaging" all parties as the non-tanks would need to manage cooldowns and be aware, and the tanks have to manage their threat. Based on what I have heard from some livestreams this seems to be the route they are planning to go (maybe not your exact ideas but from a "difficulty" perspective).

Azherae

Yeah I'm used to this, I'm looking forward to it.

Whichever of the 'new Big Three' delivers this best for me, will get most of my time, I think.

If they all fail, there's always Iron Giants.

McShave

First, I hope that tank game play is more than pressing your high threat abilities and using your interrupt abilities periodically. Your enmity idea for interrupt is an example of something different that might be interesting. Also we know that in game character and npc collision is a thing, so maybe Intrepid could use that as a mechanic.

One of my top questions is how this game will handle threat as a mechanic. Without a way to monitor the threat value of each player, it is almost impossible to maximize the damage of each player in case they do manage to pull aggro. Will they implement a method similar to monitoring the current health of enemy targets, where the color of their health bar determines the approximate percentage of their hp bar? We will have to see and test in Alpha 2 or in the Betas.

Also, how will tanking bosses compare when comparing world bosses to dungeon bosses and how does being in an open world pvp place change the difficulty of a raid fight? Will open world raid bosses have easier tanking mechanics due to the complexity of managing a large raid? Will bosses be easier in general as well, due to the fact that at any moment an enemy party or raid can invade your boss fight and kill your team? All I have is questions but no answers.

TheWolfofGar

McShave wrote: »

First, I hope that tank game play is more than pressing your high threat abilities and using your interrupt abilities periodically. Your enmity idea for interrupt is an example of something different that might be interesting. Also we know that in game character and npc collision is a thing, so maybe Intrepid could use that as a mechanic.

Agreed, I could imagine tank check where the boss targets a player with a charge type attack and you need to stand in front of the targeted player to protect them via body blocking and popping a few cds.

McShave wrote: »

One of my top questions is how this game will handle threat as a mechanic. Without a way to monitor the threat value of each player, it is almost impossible to maximize the damage of each player in case they do manage to pull aggro. Will they implement a method similar to monitoring the current health of enemy targets, where the color of their health bar determines the approximate percentage of their hp bar? We will have to see and test in Alpha 2 or in the Betas.

This I second, we need a clear way to visualize who has how much threat each party member has and how close or far ahead you are.

McShave wrote: »

Also, how will tanking bosses compare when comparing world bosses to dungeon bosses and how does being in an open world pvp place change the difficulty of a raid fight? Will open world raid bosses have easier tanking mechanics due to the complexity of managing a large raid? Will bosses be easier in general as well, due to the fact that at any moment an enemy party or raid can invade your boss fight and kill your team? All I have is questions but no answers.

all good questions, I look forward to seeing how the difficulty scales. I believe the grave golem was supposed to model a "mini boss" from the cleric showcase but until they start working on balancing we don't really have a view for how difficult or not it will be. looking forward to testing in A2

Gui10

Hopefully all these things make tanking FUN and not toooo much of a chore than it already is, which is why people don't play it. I am definitely for more variety in playing styles and maneuvers.

I believe the mentionned mechanics should be mostly to reward better tanks, sometimes being essential to beating a certain boss or mob, but not always.

TheWolfofGar

Gui10 wrote: »

Hopefully all these things make tanking FUN and not toooo much of a chore than it already is, which is why people don't play it. I am definitely for more variety in playing styles and maneuvers.

I believe the mentioned mechanics should be mostly to reward better tanks, sometimes being essential to beating a certain boss or mob, but not always.

Agreed, personally as a tank I don't typically view it as a chore, however I know a lot of people feel the added pressure as you are typically expected to play as the defacto leader for most engagements, i.e. when, how many and where to pull the mobs/boss.

That said yes, I agree I think if every mob rampaged the mechanic would be tedious and frustrating. especially if multiple were simultaneously. Variety is the spice of life, I want to see things in the same vein added throughout the game not in every fight. Just like not every mob should spawn adds you need to burst down as a dps check. they get tiring and lose appeal as there is only so many times you can see the mech before it gets stale.

Ideally these will act to make tank game play more exciting, rather than being a monotonous "face boss x direction, move as little as possible and spank" which tends to be what most fights inevitably devolve into on a fundamental level, this loses flavour rather quickly, which is more where I would say the chore feeling is likely coming from.

Spif

Lost Ark has something like this. It's called a stagger check, during which all players need to use their abilities that have a high stagger modifier, and since they are cooldowns, sometimes those abilities needed to be saved for the check. Stagger is a mechanic that builds on the boss and once it hits a specific value, the boss will be stunned for a few seconds allowing for free DPS. The tank and MDPS usually had the most stagger.

Passing a stagger check also stuns the boss for free DPS. Failing it is a wipe.

novercalis

IDK if its possible or would work in a MMO let alone AoC

But I really enjoyed Chained Echoes combat mechanics - there is a Overdrive gauge and you need to stay within that gauge. Imagine 3 colors - Yellow, Green, red

this gauge is on World bosses only or turns on individually for each players when fighting a world boss only.

Everyone starts in Yellow and as you do combat actions (Dps, healing, etc) it begins to move the gauge toward red.

Mana costs is 100% in Yellow. Once in Green- mana is 50% cost (this aspect doesnt have to apply to AoC, just explaining how it worked in CE) and once its in red, mana cost is 150%

Incoming Damage is normal on yellow, reduced in Green and extra in red.

This forces players to be strategic with their abilities. You can spam and expect to hit the overdrive quicker but if you fall into the red, you're hurting your dps and taking more dmg. To reduce it - pausing and maybe basic attacks. If there is a Guard / Block mechanic - holding down Block allows it to move down too until you're back in the green.

IDK if this is even possible in an MMORPG setting but it would be cool as fuck if it can.

https://videogames.si.com/guides/chained-echoes-tips-combat-overdrive-sky-armor

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